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The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board  |  Achewood  |  Achewood (Moderator: AugustWest)  |  Topic: Cilantro-ape ceviche 9-15-04 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Cilantro-ape ceviche 9-15-04  (Read 3138 times)
wombat
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« on: September 15, 2004, 09:57:43 AM »

I think we need to hear from our man in public health on this one, Dawg.  Wouldn't this be a dangerous dish, never mind its legal and ethical problems?
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2004, 11:06:33 AM »

OMG. This was my first laugh out loud moment in a couple weeks now. It was the title that done me in.
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2004, 11:31:54 AM »

Awesome.
I always got a kick out of reading my father's wine guides for the esotericness of some of their suggestions.  This is kind of what I was always expecting to read.
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2004, 12:07:50 PM »

Quote from: "wombat"
I think we need to hear from our man in public health on this one, Dawg.  Wouldn't this be a dangerous dish, never mind its legal and ethical problems?

From what little I know of this: the closer you get to your own species in your eating habits, the greater risk you have of your food carrying a microorganism or prion that will fuck your shit up. I haven't specifically seen any literature about eating apes, but I have to imagine it's not that much less risky than eating people.

Then again, we're talking about a cat and an alive stuffed bear. They'd probably be fine.

As for the alt text: I dunno, I still feel like I know Ray Smuckles. This strip is very Ray -- of course he can talk about food and beer with fluency, and this kind of weird pseudo-useful underworld connection seems very Ray.
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2004, 12:59:24 PM »

I dunno. When my dad was in the army he had to eat monkey.

Apparently Ray really does have a worldwide network that can get him anything any time.
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Carlos del Vaca
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2004, 01:16:28 PM »

"Ape?"

Bwah!

$600 million can buy a lot of crazy crap.
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2004, 07:03:55 PM »

The Chinese have been eating monkeys for thousands of years - I don't know about eating apes, though, and there is probably a difference.

As for the whole Mad Cow thing, there have been cases of cannibalistic cultures (tribes in New Guinea practicing eating rituals on their dead) having outbreaks of Kuru (last seen in 1960). The women and children exhibited the disease, which was similar to Crutzfeld-Jakob disease (a prion disease thought to be genetic and more commonly found in elderly people of Jewish descent).

The women and children generally were the only ones infected by Kuru because they generally were given the brain to eat; the higher social status males of the tribe were given flesh organs (the heart being principal) and did not get the disease.

The practice was stopped in the late 50s and the 'outbreak' in New Guinea ended by 1960; there have been no resurgent cases that I'm aware of.

Even mad-cow disease (originally called New-Variant Crutzfeld-Jakob Disease, a prion disease humans have exhibited from consuming meat from a relatively distant species) is usually thought to be a result of the feeding of ground up cow matter back to cows and, specifically, neural tissue - brain and spinal cord.

The feeding of ground cow/sheep matter back to cows built protein in the cows faster then feeding grain. It also deposited 'rogue proteins' or prions in the meat.  It is thought that perhaps sheep infected with a disease called "Scrapie" (this disease has been observed and documented for at least 250 years) were fed to cows. "Mad Cow" had not been observed in the past. When relatively young, non-Jewish descended people began developing C-J disease symptoms, their autopsies showed differences between the classic presentation and their disease, hence the 'Variant'.

So what I would presume is that if you were to be forced for whatever reason into a situation where you had to kill and eat an ape, I would not eat the brain or spinal cord. Better yet if you can be certain that the ape did not eat any brains or spinal cords.

I would be foraging for berries at that point; I don't think I could eat a Chimp, or a Gorilla, Orangutan, Siamang or Gibbon. Maybe a nice juicy lemur though...
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2004, 07:13:18 PM »

Another source of Cruetzfeld-Jacobs Disease is the direct injection of Human Growth Hormone -- something that freaked me out once when I went to give blood because I took injections of growth hormone for a year and a half. I found out, thankfully, that the hormone I had injected into myself daily was a synthetic reproduction of HGH, and therefore I had no chance of contracting CJD from that. QED.
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wombat
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2004, 07:48:17 PM »

But isn't it also relevant that it is ceviche?  Which is normally uncooked, as I recall?  Don't try to fool me with that talk of the vinegar doing whatchamawhosis to the proteins.  That's not the same as heating up all the germs till they die.
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2004, 08:04:24 PM »

Quote from: "wombat"
But isn't it also relevant that it is ceviche?  Which is normally uncooked, as I recall?  Don't try to fool me with that talk of the vinegar doing whatchamawhosis to the proteins.  That's not the same as heating up all the germs till they die.

Er, wombat? I hate to give you the screaming whim-whams, but heat generally doesn't "kill" prions anyway. (On those quotes -- one of the deeply scary things about prions is that they're not actually alive, so antibiotic-based medicine does nothing. It's like trying to spray pesticide on falling rocks.) A big part of the problem with Kreutzfeld-Jakob/Mad Cow/etc. is that we basically have no idea how to destroy the prions in cow corpses (burying the corpses of cows killed for Mad Cow gets the prions into the soil, and burning them gets them into the atmosphere) or in hamburger (as far as I'm aware, although Captain Public Health AD should probably help me here, incidents of K-J contracted from beef have had nothing whatsoever to do with the heat at which the meat was cooked and couldn't have been prevented via more thorough cooking).

I'm not saying that uncooked ape meat isn't more hazardous than cooked ape meat -- indeed, were I ordering ape, I would certainly have them cook the living fuck out of it -- but cooking is a secondary concern.
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2004, 08:15:12 PM »

Dang! How do you guys know all this stuff? I mean, the way you're talking doesn't sound like you just Googled it or something. Dang.
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2004, 08:16:54 PM »

Quote from: "wombat"
But isn't it also relevant that it is ceviche?  Which is normally uncooked, as I recall?  Don't try to fool me with that talk of the vinegar doing whatchamawhosis to the proteins.  That's not the same as heating up all the germs till they die.

This is the best definition of "cooking" ever. It makes me happy inside.
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AugustWest
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2004, 08:18:13 PM »

I'm just impressed with the image of spraying pesticides on falling rocks.  It evokes Wile E. Coyote for me somehow.
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2004, 08:26:03 PM »

Eric S.'s real job is a meat inspector so he's talked about this stuff in his columns a few times. The history of the disease at 1RyderFakin is pretty interesting.
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AlohaDawg
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2004, 08:48:04 PM »

True: Prions are not alive and therefore you can't kill them.

I think, though, that we don't have any good idea on who is susceptible to mad cow, or at least who is more susceptible. And there is no good way to do a dose-response study on a disease that seems to only affect humans. I have a untested and unproven theory that in carcasses of such animals, using some kind of solvent to denature the proteins should destroy also the 'rogue proteins'. The problem would be the environmental impact of using denaturing agents on such a large scale.

This is the NIH laying down the SCIENCE on y'all.

BTW, for those of you who actually watched that silly "medical investigations" show, the NIH has no field staff. That's us at CDC. And we don't really work the way the clowns on the show do, either.

<><>><><><<><><><><><><>
Adapted from Prions: Puzzling Infectious Proteins by Ruth Levy Guyer, PhD


Prions have changed scientists' understanding of the ground rules for infectious diseases. Prions cause diseases, but they aren't viruses or bacteria or fungi or parasites. They are simply proteins, and proteins were never thought to be infectious on their own. Organisms are infectious, proteins are not. Or, at least, they never used to be.

Prions (pronounced pree-ahns) enter cells and apparently convert normal proteins found within the cells into prions just like themselves. The normal cell proteins have all the same "parts" as the prions--specifically the same amino acid building blocks--but they fold differently.

Prions enter brain cells and there convert the normal cell protein PrPC to the prion form of the protein, called PrPSC. When normal cell proteins transform into prions, amino acids that are folded tightly into alpha helical structures relax into looser beta sheets. More and more PrPC molecules transform into PrPSC molecules, until eventually prions completely clog the infected brain cells. The cells misfire, work poorly, or don't work at all.

Ultimately, infected prion-bloated brain cells die and release prions into the tissue. These prions then enter, infect, and destroy other brain cells.  And, as clusters of cells die, the brain stops looking like a brain and starts looking more like Swiss cheese. The medical term for the prion diseases is "spongiform encephalopathies," in acknowledgement that the sick brains (encephalo is Greek for brain; pathy is Greek for disease) are riddled with holes and have taken the form of sponges.

Shepherds and farmers whose sheep had scrapie never seemed to get scrapie themselves. So, for a long time, scientists assumed that the prions of animals did not cause infections in humans. But, between 1994 and 1996, 12 people in England came down with Creutzfeld-Jakob disease (CJD), a human prion disease whose symptoms are not unlike those of the mad cows, and all the victims had eaten beef from cows suspected of having mad cow disease. In October, 1996, scientists in England reported that the prions from ten of the British patients were remarkably like those of the mad cows and not like those of people who died of "classical" CJD.

Scientists quickly realized that the occurrence of CJD in a dozen people 19 to 39 years old was cause for alarm, because CJD had always been rare--typically one new case might be diagnosed per million people each year--and seldom occurred in people younger than 55. This epidemic was something new, something extraordinary. Scientists now speculate that the prions that started out in sheep suffering from scrapie made their way into cows and then moved more recently into humans.

Cattle are fed meal made from sheep "offal," the bones and other waste parts of sheep carcasses. Standard procedures for grinding up carcasses were altered in the 1970s, and the new processing methods seem not to have been adequate for destroying scrapie prions. The cattle were exposed, through the offal, to sheep prions, and the prions eventually established themselves in their cow hosts. Later, they adapted further, infecting cells of people who had eaten hamburgers from prion-bearing cows.

At the moment, CJD and only a handful of other human diseases have clear links to prions. But it is likely that prions will turn out to be the agents of a variety of currently enigmatic diseases in which brain cells are destroyed and the nervous system deteriorates. Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease are two prime candidates.

So, a couple new ground rules now seem to govern infectious diseases. The first is that naked proteins--prions--can be infectious and can cause infectious diseases. The second and potentially more troubling is that, like other infectious agents, prions can jump species' barriers and cause deadly diseases in humans. Recently, and for the first time known, two farmers with mad cows in their herds died of CJD.
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