I voted today!

[AlohaDawg]

Ark -

Your family DID work for them. And you rejected free college because you had a different vision for yourself. That takes some strength of conviction.

Your parents are strong people and I imagine you are too. I agree completely with the idea that the State maintain safety nets for people with specific needs.

I disagree with the notion that the third generation of people on general relief deserves continued support - although they should be empowered to earn what they need. That's the kind of 'entitlement' I'm talking about. There is a vast difference between being 'entitled' to something and 'deserving' or 'needing' something. I think your family both deserved and needed the assistance you got; I think that what your family got was the temporary help you needed due to a circumstance which you overcame.

Also, on a personal note, I think it's awesome that you can dig down and share some intensely personal stuff. I'm sorry that my somewhat sarcastic statement touched a nerve with you; I distinguish your situation sharply from the mentality of entitlement and certainly would not make a statement intended to belittle your experience or be hurtful.

[slink]

which was not my point at all

Well, I just think that, while a system where anyone is entitled to assistance is prone to abuse, it is wrong to have any other system, as then it just causes people to go without healthcare, food or housing.
I don't want to be angered by the situation, I'd rather be motivated to go out and help, but it's not the case when things are so far gone. For me at any rate.
It's not helped by the fact that I am trying to sort shit out as is (since I am not entitled to any assistance other than health care, which hasn't gotten me anywhere with my illness), and I live somewhere where there are few, if no people to assist anyway.

[arkabee]

which was not my point at all

Well, I just think that, while a system where anyone is entitled to assistance is prone to abuse, it is wrong to have any other system, as then it just causes people to go without healthcare, food or housing.
I don't want to be angered by the situation, I'd rather be motivated to go out and help, but it's not the case when things are so far gone. For me at any rate.
It's not helped by the fact that I am trying to sort shit out as is (since I am not entitled to any assistance other than health care, which hasn't gotten me anywhere with my illness), and I live somewhere where there are few, if no people to assist anyway.

slink,

i must apologize and clarify.  it was not my point to post something that would end up making you sick to your stomach nor unsettle you etc.

as for "trying to sort shit out", you certainly have my sympathies and commiseration on that issue in general.

i think you bring up an excellent point, which (if i may) i will attempt to reiterate:  even a messed up system, that can and is abused, that exists to help people is better than no system at all.

i agree with that statement, to a point.  i do not know how to clarify where that point is, other than to say that at some point the abuses to the system may cause more "evil" than the benefits of the system may cause "good".  at that point i would think that the system is not better than no system at all, and that point the system should be overhauled or scrapped and recreated with checks built-in to halt the abuses which experience has shown have happened.

and i feel that many of the people, whom i have spoken with, who cry out against the abuses of the system feel that that point has been met and crossed.

which is why i feel it necessary to speak of my first hand experiences, to show that yes while the system is being abused and causing "evil" the system DOES still cause "good".

i do not know how to fix the system, but i truly fear that if nothing is done rationally that an irrational reactive (rather than proactive) backlash against the abuses of the system will cause the system to be dismantled to such a point that the "good" that it does cause will be lost and that the "evil" that it does cause will never be redressed nor corrected.

perhaps that is what is meant by "pluck the eye to spite the face".

[slink]

Don't worry about it. Nothing you said made me feel sick, it's just how I keep feeling when I think about it all, and well, what with the events currently it's all on my mind a lot anyway.

I certainly agree with you on that. I certainly don't feel the line has been crossed yet, but I guess mainly because I feel the people in charge have too much money for their own goods as is, and so something needs to be done tax-wise to redress the system. Damn fat-cats!

I spent years watching my parents struggle through taxes, and council tax which we pay the same as in a city - despite the fact the only amenity we get that that pays for is waste disposal - they refuse to even resurface our road which is causing damage to people's vehicles, because not enough people use it - despite the fact we have paid and not seen the use of more council tax than would be needed to do so... But that's kind of irrelevant.
Meh!

No, I'm just angry at the system, none of you guys!!

[AlohaDawg]

I think that's an important point: if some people need a new house, burning down the one they live in and making them wait in the cold for you to build the new one is a pretty crappy way to go about meeting their need.

One problem I have with a single-source national health care system in the US is that I am afraid that such a system would spin down to the average. I think some 'competition' in terms of providing excellent and innovative services with market controls on cost is important.

I wish pharmaceuticals worked this way and I don't 100% understand why they don't except to assume that one basic problem is that they are publicly held and the need to answer to stockholders outweighs any potential for minimizing the social cost. That's one area where my pro-business views break down significantly.

I know that JLD also related a personal family anecodote about health care - the two of you also have stories to tell and I know families with no insurance. I think that there should in every state be a Federally supported insurance program that gives people the opportunity to have health coverage equal to the average coverage where they live. I would pay some additional taxes for this because the social benefit is massive (and because I work in public health). This must be independent of medicare and medicaid, though - this would be primarily to cover families for preventive services, chronic diseases and acute injuries. Things covered by non-profits or public health clinics should be excluded because those services are already paid for.  Emergency rooom care should always be available to everyone regardless of ability to pay.  I would fund this through HRSA and build more health centers, especially in rural areas and inner cities. The money should go to the states to administer the plans themselves or to pay for coverage from area insurance carriers.

This is a safety net that is meant to fill gaps - I still don't believe a national health care plan/system is viable in the US.

[slink]

I think it's probably (ok, fairly definitely!) true that switching the US over to an NHS style system wouldn't work. I guess I don't tend to consider that the population is well, pretty vast. I mean, the population of Britain equals those who voted for Bush, and we can just about get by with the NHS. As it is, things need doing to address that setup! Waiting times for surgery is a big issue at the moment.

But like you say, there certainly needs to be something there. Part of it is that I don't know much about Medicare and Medicaid, and what their roles are. I'll have to go and look into that some, as I hear a lot of talk of them, but going into depth would take time.

I sometimes feel guilty for spending so much time researching and thinking about US politics, since there is so much at home to be thought about, but, well, I'm not entirely sure why it is. Everything British just seems too quaint to me! Plus, while I doubt now I will ever move to the US, I would still like to leave the UK, as there are far too many things I am unhappy about here.

[AlohaDawg]

We should trade homes for a month. My family would love to ride around on trains in the UK, go see castles, and I'd like another chance to try to uinderstand this old man from Aberdeen who was trying to talk to me the last time I was in Scotland. I have no earthly clue if he was talking or having a tuberculous phlegm attack.  And you could hang out on a beach where the sun shines and it's warm. Hawaii is nominally in the US - but it's not like the mainland. It would be a good place to start before going to, say, LA or New York though.