The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Arts & Entertainment => Topic started by: side_show on June 18, 2004, 08:18:22 pm
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Help me out here:
I was introduced to The Smiths about five years ago. I was given/borrowed and never returned "Strangeways here we come." And I thought - wow, Morrissey's really funny. Then I talked to a few people about The Smiths and everyone seemed to take the music pretty seriously - like maybe I had totally misread the context? So are The Smiths actually a "goofy" band, or are they seriously that melancholy? Cause all The Smith fans I've encountered look at me really funny when I say I find the Smiths humorous - and also they tend to dress in black. Seriously – no one could possibly be that pretentious without it being a big joke, could they? I have a lot of doubt about The Darkness because they actually seem to take themselves pretty seriously - are The Smiths in the same boat or what? I'm hella' confused over here.
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Morrissey honestly is that pretentious.
I've had the misfortune to see him on a few things in the past few days and been reminded quite what an offensive fuckwit he is. The guy's big in with the BNP and shit and it's just not cool in my book. I was always amused in my youth by The Smiths. Finding them amusing and whatnot. But then came the discovery that there were people who took it that seriously. One of whom leapt out of a third storey window in Edinburgh, so drunk he broke only a rib.
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I have always taken "Girlfriend in a Coma" seriously, but I'm not entirely sure if I'm meant to. So there.
I also have the capacity to be massively self-righteous and pretentious re: "How Soon is Now," especially with its modern commercial uses. ("Why is this the 'Charmed' theme? WHY?! Did they actually LISTEN TO THE WORDS?!")
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I like the Smiths, in a sort of "I like them in a comical wink-wink manner except when I get really sad and then I listen to 'Strangeways' kinda drunk" way. Morrissey I find massively hilarious, simply because of how much shit he talks. He's like a little greasy English Steve Albini. There's an interview with him from a few months ago in Tokion, where, in one part, the interviewer reads a bunch of old quotes from the Moz, where he essentially shits on rap and hip-hop as means of musical expression (calling them "a musical stench" among other things), and then asks if he still agrees with his previous statements. His response was, "Yes, only more strongly."
God. Morrissey, you are DELICIOUS!
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I agree with Bozack on this one. Usually I just get a kick out of the Smiths, but "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out" is the epitome of teenage-angst anthems as far as I'm concerned, so I guess I do take them seriously on occasion. Not window jumping seriously, or even "OMG Morrissey totally expresses my pain" seriously, mind, but nevertheless I shake my proverbial fist at adolescence for making me emphasize with 80's rock.
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Morrissey honestly is that pretentious.
I've had the misfortune to see him on a few things in the past few days and been reminded quite what an offensive fuckwit he is. The guy's big in with the BNP and shit and it's just not cool in my book. I was always amused in my youth by The Smiths. Finding them amusing and whatnot. But then came the discovery that there were people who took it that seriously. One of whom leapt out of a third storey window in Edinburgh, so drunk he broke only a rib.
Was that his rib?
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Well, I'm a big Smiths fan so I don't know if I'm the right one to ask, but I'll say that much of Morrissey's lyrics are funny and clever - his idol is Oscar Wilde, and Moz is a bit like a singing Wilde, so however seriously you take Wilde is about as serious as you should take Morrissey. I find him deadly funny, but then again, I laugh with him, not at him.
But honestly, no one can possibly take "Unhappy Birthday" as anything but a comic piece - and don't even get me started on "Vicar in a Tutu."
I find the Smiths sublime - whether serious or humourous they're probably a mix of both. I'm sure they took themselves very seriously, even when they were being funny.
Still, if Jesus played guitar, he'd play like Johnny Marr.
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Morrissey honestly is that pretentious.
I've had the misfortune to see him on a few things in the past few days and been reminded quite what an offensive fuckwit he is. The guy's big in with the BNP and shit and it's just not cool in my book.
? eh... i didn't know that.
boo to morrissey.
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Does the two-party system work for you? Are you pleased with either the Torries or Labour parties?
Honestly?
The guy's big in with the BNP and shit and it's just not cool in my book.
? eh... i didn't know that.
boo to morrissey.
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Does the two-party system work for you? Are you pleased with either the Torries or Labour parties?
Honestly?
Honestly. Fuck no. I hate the Tories, and New Labour are no different.
But that doesn't mean I support, or would leave on the Earth had I the choice, a party full of racist, bigoted, offensive, right-wing, violent, neo-fascists!
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Well, I don't think Morrissey would support such a party either, from what I know of the man.
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OK I will admit, I have gone and looked into it more and it's certainly questionable.
There have been vague muttering for a long time that Morrissey was basically a fascist. A strange fascist...
Anyway, there are still wonderings as to whether he very nearly joined the BNP, which is a Nationalist party to the extent of killing immigrants. Fuck not even immigrants, but generations who are English! So anyway, not only is there question as to whether he nearly joined, but there is question as to whether he signed a petition against them. Apparently NME were about to print that he had, but were told they couldn't.
Then there's the fact that apparently he's a strong supporter of PETA. Damn fascists again!
And well, no one knows if he's gay or not. Or straight or not.
Oh and I discovered he feels the same way about Cromwell as I.
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I'm not going to weigh in on the "are they serious or satirical" question because I genuinely feel that the Smiths' body of work can be many, many things to many, many people. The Smiths made music that meant, at a pivotal time in my life (and, by extension, continues to mean) a hell of a lot to me - so who am I to say? Clearly there's humor in it, but it's certainly not all "we sound like this to make fun of those who sound like this"; who was doing what the Smiths were doing at the time?
As far as Morrissey's alleged racist / fascist leanings: I just don't see it. Knowing what little I know about the British music press, I wouldn't be surprised to read that rumors had, over time, grown into their canonical status. I remember reading two of the biggest indictments against Morrissey were (a) his use of the Union Jack imagery and (b) for a while, contingents of skinheads were turning up at his shows. The latter I've got no explanation for, but the former doesn't seem out of character; Morrissey has always seemed Intensely Concerned with the English Condition.
That, and he's just the sort of character to play with the press and Give Em Enough Rope, so to speak. From what I've read (and this was years ago), he became intensely cynical about the music press in general after one of the songs off of the first Smiths album (Hand That Rocks the Cradle, I think) got a lot of sensational ink as a song about / condoning child abuse. After this whole incident emerged the Morrissey we're familiar with, whose interviews were witty, vague, and provocative.
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Seriously: When are you going to write your book? Put me down for ten copies.
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This all makes me even more squeamish.
I was hoping you'd all tell me the whole "taking The Smiths seriously thing" was a big joke on me. I have a strong memory of back in my university days: a girl in my class very snidely looking at the copy of Douglas Coupland's "Girlfriend in a Coma" falling out of my bag during a lecture in The Fundamentals of Literary Study and saying "you know that's a song by The Smiths, don't you?" Me, already puzzled by the whole Smiths enigma, responded: "Yes, I know that," and the girl rolled her eyes in overt disgust and then just sat there staring at me. My response to her question seemed to shape her attitude toward me for the next four years of University where our paths regularly crossed. Every class I was in with her she made a point of talking me down, even if we essentially agreed on an issue. Now, unlike V-Adore, I've always thought "Girlfriend in a Coma" was one of the funny ones- I mean in the song the boyfriend veils his desire to finish the girl off so thinly, and he's the one who supposedly put her in the coma, now lurking around the hospital waiting for another chance.
Now, humour is personal, and admittedly my sense of humour is very dark, very cynical. Yet if, as almost everyone seems to agree, that The Smiths are supposed to be taken at least partially seriously, and that Morrissey actually takes himself seriously, my enjoyment of them is decreasing with a great deal of speed. I don't take any enjoyment in pretension -yet, I'm intrigued as well: public image is not the true self. Intentionally played out pretension is sort of different. Jough raises an interesting point in noting that his idol is Oscar Wilde. After having spent two years deeply immersed in Wilde as a director, an actor, and a student I came to the conclusion that Wilde is a genius, but that I hate him and never want to be involved in another Wilde production in my life. I have a great deal of suspicion toward anyone who doesn't communicate on a human level. Being "clever" is far too often a tool to build a false sense of superiority over others. Which makes the whole "Morrissey was a fascist" argument believable to me. But then I don't really have a sense of the person Morrissey presents himself to be other than through the music itself. Depending on the work alone I don't get the definite sense of what is being presented, it's far more enigmatic than the image that I've taken away from the few articles and sound bites about The Smiths/Morrissey that I've encountered.
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Girlfriend in a Coma
It sucks that you associate the Smiths with such a jerk. That book is very rad, although Douglas Coupland is, as I've mentioned (http://achewood.plagiarist.com/viewtopic.php?p=506#506), an odd odd man. And I definitely agree with your interpretation of the song, though perhaps my opinion of it was forever tainted by having heard Mojo Nixon's insulting cover of it.
Jough raises an interesting point in noting that his idol is Oscar Wilde. After having spent two years deeply immersed in Wilde as a director, an actor, and a student I came to the conclusion that Wilde is a genius, but that I hate him and never want to be involved in another Wilde production in my life.
This I find very interesting. When I was younger (11) I got fascinated by Oscar Wilde and decided to read everything he'd written, which I did. To this day I bear an overwhelmingly personal hatred towards Alfred Douglas. I've read Dorian Gray upwards of ten times I'd imagine, memorized a good deal of Wilde's (admittedly spotty) poetry, and generally immersed (to steal your word) myself in his life. So Morrissey's little nods to Wilde only made me love him more.
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Stuff about "Girlfriend in a Coma"; also, about not liking Oscar Wilde.
First off, I always want to punch Oscar Wilde in the face SO HARD. I don't know, maybe it's my latent meathead, but trying to read a book where everytime a character says something, a wittier character says, "But that is actually that, because this is this and this! TITTER TITTER!" fills me with rage. I've seriously shouted "JUST fuck*ng STOP IT! STOP IT!" at my copy of "Dorian Grey."
I actually have personal associations with Smiths songs. I'm very close to "Girlfriend in a Coma" because, at one point, I had a girlfriend who was in a coma. And, as it turns out, I was actually listening to "There is a Light That Never Goes Out" (chorus: "And if a double-decker bus Crashes into us, To die by your side Is such a heavenly way to die. And if a ten-ton truck Kills the both of us, To die by your side,Well, the pleasure - the privilege is mine.") when I found out an ex-girlfriend of mine had been killed in a massive car accident with her boyfriend. And the best thing is, the night the girlfriend who was in a coma was struck by the car that put her into the coma, we had been discussing how I heard "There is a Light That Never Goes Out" when I found out etc. etc. etc.
I didn't say these were GOOD associations.
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I associate the Smiths with a very, very evil ex-boyfriend. They're ruined for me now.
Also, last night I dreamed that somebody loved me.
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"London." "Bigmouth Strikes Again." "How Soon Is Now." "There Is a Light That Never Goes Out."
Out of the few dozen Smiths songs I own, those are the only ones that stuck. Oh well.
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stuff about an Oscar Wilde fixation from her youth
Part of what drove me hardcore away from Wilde, and basically any canon-style playwrights was reading Artaud's "No More Masterpieces" in The Theatre and its Double after having spent a great deal of time forced through formal education to read "classics" which I always felt excluded from as a woman and a minority. I know Artaud's a nut bar, and a lot of his stuff comes off as mad rambelings, but it was nice to be given a reason to say "Fuck Shakespeare!" I still take a great deal of joy in that: "Fuck Shakespeare!" But of course, I also have to admit that when I was wee, I fell in love with theatre through seeing "A Midsummer Night's Dream," but hell, what little girl don't love fairies?
a character says something, a wittier character says, "But that is actually that, because this is this and this! TITTER TITTER!" fills me with rage. I've seriously shouted "JUST fuck*ng STOP IT! STOP IT!" at my copy of "Dorian Grey."
Which made me laught so hard I choked on my Subway sandwich
stuff about crazy life connections to The Smiths songs
Well, wouldn't this be a good reason to dislike The Smiths? Their music seems to trigger very bad things to happen in your life!
edit:I've never been able to figure out how to quote two people in the same post
edit:Fixed. Close your quotes and you'll be just fine. Your friendly neighborhood moderator!
edit: thank-yee
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I dislike you folks. Vehemently!
I am listening to The Smiths. And I am not screaming and turning them off.
I am, almost enjoying them. In fact...
I got Louder Than Bombs and Hatful of Hollow of a friend last night, after we shared our mutual opinion of Morrissey being an asshat.
Maybe it's Marr's appearance on the last Tweaker album, or maybe I was just wrong...
Yes, your audiophile, asshole-when-it-comes-to-music-opinions mod has changed his mind.
Still don't like the man though.
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What's all the fuss about a bunch of guys banging on anvils with hammers and squeezing bellows? I don't get it.
What?
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Boo!
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I love the Smiths and think that Marr's contribution to the band's kickassedness, while great, is over-stated. Marr's recent solo album sucks complete ass. Morrissey has been pretty inconsistent in his solo career but still has written some kick-ass songs minus Marr. Can't really say the same thing about Marr. Morrissey is one of my favorite musicians. And so what if he is nuts or pompous or over-the-top. It's Morrissey...of course he is.
If you don't like Morrissey then, well, I so think that you should re-evaluate your opinion of him. If you still don't like him, well, then we'll just have to have different opinions of him.
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That ain't no joke! Hehe, greasy English Steve Albini. I'd say Albini is more of a prick, or a dickhead, and Morrissey is more of a paranoid diva.
I think Mojo recenlty published an interview in which he discusses problems with band members, including the lawsuit the drummer (I think?) won. I guess basically the bassist wanted the royalties from the songs or whatever to be split 4 ways, and was granted that. But I bet most would agree Morrissey and Marr contributed a great deal more to the group's success than the drummer or bassist did, which is why they share the songwriting credits for all or nearly all the songs. Morrissey thinks he lost the suit because the Man has it in for him for all the bad things he's said about Maggie Thatcher and stuff. He also says that this whole thing will end in him getting killed. Hehe. He was serious about why he lost the suit and probably less serious about being murdered by Mike Joyce. Anyway, point is, he does talk quite a bit of shit. And seems kind of fussy. But, he is getting sexier with age. How can you not love him?
Edit: It also quoted Marr from years back saying something like "Morrissey just needs a good humping." Awesome.
Morrissey I find massively hilarious, simply because of how much shit he talks. He's like a little greasy English Steve Albini.
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I think Mojo recenlty published an interview in which he discusses problems with band members, including the lawsuit the drummer (I think?) won.
Yep, I have that issue. The interview's ok-- at very least, it was respectable for not bringing up the celibacy issue.
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FUN SMITHS ANECDOTE #47: "The Blacksmiths"
Okay, when I was working in a record store, one of the other clerks, another clerk, this real hipster guy (writes for Pitchfork Media, knows everyone, kind of an asshat) named Nitsuh is talking to me one day about my dreams of starting a cover band. And this conversation takes place:
Nitsuh: Well, apparently there's this Smiths cover band in Brooklyn, these four black guys, they're really good.
Me: Hmmm?
Nitsuh: And guess what they're called.
The shoe drops.
Me: The....Blacksmiths?
Nitsuh: No! Isn't that nuts? How can you be four black guys, in a Smiths cover band, and NOT be called the Blacksmiths?
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FUN SMITHS ANECDOTE #47
Dude, your life crosses paths with the Smiths what seems to be an unreasonable amount. I am guessing you and Morrissey should probably fight to the death.
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I am guessing you and Morrissey should probably fight to the death.
Newfound love (or lack of hatred) of Morrissey or nay, (and eternal love of Bozack, naturally) I would pay to see that!
Mind you, I'd just pay to see Morrissey in a fight anyway. It would be kind of amusing!
Interestingly I just saw Phil Jupitus and Lauren Laverne (which will mean nothing to anyone not British I'm sure) doing a retrospective of Glastonbury, which Morrissey headlined, and caught him doing, what I think I remember being called The Last of the Gang to Die.
Again, I was shocked at, well, kind of enjoying it.
I am I think decidedly ill at the moment though. Maybe that's what it is!
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Yep, I have that issue. The interview's ok-- at very least, it was respectable for not bringing up the celibacy issue.
Well, it kinda did with the Marr quote, the one about Moz needing a good humping, I think the writer said something like "I doubt that has happened." I took this as a reference to the celibacy issue, but you're right, it wasn't really discussed with Morrissey.
Or maybe I am remembering a different interview.
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Sorry Jough (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060317/music_nm/morrissey_dc).
~Paul
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Yeah, it's a bad year to be a Morrissey fan. His new album is also his worst album, and this is coming from someone who hated hated hated "Southpaw Grammar."
The last one wasn't so great lyrically, but this one makes Britney Spears look like an intellectual. A single tear is slowly dropping down the corpse of Oscar Wilde.
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Morrissey:
"I'm just seeing lots of joyful things in life, which I didn't in the past," he said, adding slyly, "Which maybe you noticed."
Ha, ha, haaa! Oh Morrissey, you silly fuck, have become what you disdained! Beautiful.
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What is it with bands from '80s that have talented musicians playing awesome music, and then you get some cock singing often awful lyrics over the top? (The Smiths, Echo and the Bunnymen, REM sometimes etc.) Fuck you, '80s!
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Dude, Morrissey's lyrics in the Smiths were some of the best in rock history.
His last few albums... not so much. But up until 1994 he was witty and relevant. Now he's just tired and old.
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Fair do's, but for every Cemetery Gates there was an Asleep. Though come to think of it, pretty much all of the Queen is Dead is great lyrically, in retrospect. If a douuuuubleee deckkeer buuus, craaashes into uuussss...
I still think Oscillate Wildly is their best song though, and it contains a notable lack of Morrissey.
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OK, what the fuck. I was reading this thread and was all excited that discussion of the Smiths had brought Zart and Andalucia back from the grave. I didn't figure out that this thread is nearly two years old until I saw my posts and didn't remember ever posting them. What the fuck.
I still stand by my opinion that the Smiths are great. Just great.