The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Sports & Leisure => Topic started by: Va on August 31, 2004, 02:40:35 pm
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So, who else is running out to get a copy of Pikmin 2 today? Sigh, there was a time when I would have taken off work for such a momentous occasion as this.
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Ah, this is the only thing on my SO's b-day list that has the caption (sweet) after it, indeed my SO's "dealer" at the favorite game store will be working in cahoots with me to ensure the my guy doesn't pick up the game before his b-day next week.
1) Pikman was very cute, and I like watching him play it, but I couldn't stand playing it myself, cause I found killing the little guys, even for the "greater good" to be too distressing. Gotta' love all those crazy bugs though.
2) Have you noticed the bizarrely pro-colonialization message of this game. Sure it is just a game, but you plunk down on another civilization and it's the point of the game to basically enslave an entire race (or races?) for your own needs. This always creeped me out a little bit.
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1) Pikman was very cute, and I like watching him play it, but I couldn't stand playing it myself, cause I found killing the little guys, even for the "greater good" to be too distressing. Gotta' love all those crazy bugs though.
I am very tender-hearted with my Pikmin hordes, so I kinda know what you mean. It is possible to play and win without killing any Pikmin, but you have to be very, very, very careful.
2) Have you noticed the bizarrely pro-colonialization message of this game. Sure it is just a game, but you plunk down on another civilization and it's the point of the game to basically enslave an entire race (or races?) for your own needs. This always creeped me out a little bit.
I don't know about that. I don't think it can be argued that the Pikmin had a pre-existing civilization. In the context of the game, Olimar has no capacity to force the Pikmin to do anything, so I've always considered them to have volunteered to help him. They seem to get the idea to protect themselves from nocturnal predators by leaving the planet's surface at night from Olimar. Also, I don't know if you've ever seen the ending of the game, but there's a scene where, after Olimar leaves, the Pikmin take initiative to defend themselves from one of the giant bugs that eat them. It could be argued that Olimar helps the Pikmin bootstrap themselves into a civililization by teaching them that they can accomplish things by working together that a single Pikmin could never do.
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Olimar has no capacity to force the Pikmin to do anything.
He makes them carry things - they don't have choice in this, makes them pro-create for his own benifit, and he can also throw them to their deaths, drown them, etc. He basically has total controle over them. I guess he really doesn't force them to do anything, as the Pikmin have very little free will. I hadn't seen the end part though, and the fact they learn to defend themselves is good news!
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Olimar has no capacity to force the Pikmin to do anything.
He makes them carry things - they don't have choice in this, makes them pro-create for his own benifit, and he can also throw them to their deaths, drown them, etc. He basically has total controle over them. I guess he really doesn't force them to do anything, as the Pikmin have very little free will. I hadn't seen the end part though, and the fact they learn to defend themselves is good news!
They appear to start following him around of their own free will, and Olimar would not be able to throw them around if they didn't follow him. I'm not sure how it could be argued that Olimar is hurting them by encouraging their procreation, unless you think planting a garden is coercive. The Pikmin show a tendency to try to grab food and bring it back to onions whether you direct them to do so or not, occasionally with deadly results. Yes, Olimar can drown them, but the Pikmin show an infuriating low level of attention to their own mortality, as they will blithely walk into water unless Olimar carefully controls where they walk.
All in all, Pikmin are much more likely to die when Olimar is not paying attention to them than when he is, if one plays a compassionate Olimar.
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Huh?
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But look at the overriding message behind it: a pro-colonialism message, especially one where the natives are oh-so-happy to follow (through free will or not), and especially one implying that the natives are helpless with out Captain Olimar's protective hand is basically the exact same false model applied to the actual colonisation of North America, as well as to slavery. Therefore this creeps me out a great deal. We have a history of forgetting, and making neat all the horrible things we do as human beings, and I think the game is a perfect illustration of that.
When it comes to the arguement that Pikman didn't exist before the Captain arrives, this is true, but it also exactly mirrors the suggestion made by colonialists that Aboriginal people had no culture before the Pilgrims arrived, or that slaves had only a "savage culture" and needed to be cultivated.
Also, human slave owners strongly encouraged their slaves to procreate to make more slaves - that's what I was pointing to as another creepy aspect of how the game mirrors an incredibly horrible aspect of the colonial attitude and puts a positive spin on it, sort of implying that Olimar is a hero for doing all this, that what he is doing is a positive act. It implies that mastery over another race is a-okay and benefits all, and that’s just so blatantly oversimplifying a social structure that has actually proven time and time again to be extremely damaging.
But again, this is just a game.
About plant/bug insect things.
Which I will be buying.
I just think it's really interesting.
And creepy.
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As I recall the origin of Pikmin was Shigeru Miyamoto looking out the window at his wife's carrot patch and thinking "if all those little carrots were actually little men, would they love me or fear me?"
If you are a big-name professional video game designer you can make a living out of questions like that. I guess my only point is that it's not intended so much as a metaphor for colonialism but rather as a metaphor for having power over the things you create. Or maybe as a metaphor for Miyamoto being a weird dude.
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Thank you all for being so moral that a video game with dodgy moral implications and unsavory similarities to shameful pasts is getting under your skin. I am not being sarcastic.
I do think "be aware it's wrong in real life, but enjoy the game" is the proper attitude. I can enjoy going on a Vice City rampage without losing sight of how WRONG it is to really act like that. Same same.
With games where you're sort of God it definitely is a lot creepier, I'll give you that. I wonder if this kind of thing even raises many hackles in Japan, where they don't even teach Japan's shameful colonial history in school. Most Japanese have no clue about what a rapacious imperial power their country used to be.
Americans don't either, but not through lack of trying by the public schools.
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But look at the overriding message behind it: a pro-colonialism message, especially one where the natives are oh-so-happy to follow (through free will or not), and especially one implying that the natives are helpless with out Captain Olimar's protective hand is basically the exact same false model applied to the actual colonisation of North America, as well as to slavery.
if you are looking for a parallel into the real world, then cool.
otherwise, i would have to disagree with your opinion that the "overriding message behind it" is anything unless you asked the dev team.
obviously i'm seriously culturally ignorant, because instead of thinking "oh my, i'm going to subjugate a race of anthropomorphized vegetation", think "oh my, a cute little anthropomorphized veggie, i wonder if he'll be my friend, oh look there's a bunch of them. hey guys, my name is kevin, can we be friends?"
i mean, objectively i'll say i represent a set of cultural impressions left upon me, and that by introducing myself to anthropomorphized vegetation i'm also introducing the anthropomorphized vegetation to those cultural impressions too,
but,
subjectively i'm _me_ by the *****s ##### and not my culture and i just want to be some anthropomorphized vegetation's friend.
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Social implications aside, based on this thread I stopped at the video store on the way home and rented Pikmin. Excellent game! I started one, learned some stuff then went back to the beginning and started again.
In many ways it reminds me of a few other games (Populus/Black & White, Cultures, Age of Empires). I like the controls, however, it still can be difficult to exercise as fine a control as I'd like. I wish there were a way to mobilize all the Pikmin at once instead of having to go around and pick them all up. Also, when left to their own devices they are stupid. They walk right into water (stupid water!) or blunder into the big bug (waking him up whereupon he promptly eats them.)
I like the graphics. It's also proving to be a good combination of resource management and real time strategy. Thanks for turning me on to it.
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I wish there were a way to mobilize all the Pikmin at once instead of having to go around and pick them all up.
Hmmm, I'm not sure what you mean. If you blow your whistle (with B) you call all Pikmin within hearing (represented by a glowing dot circle which gets larger the longer you hold down B). Do you mean you wish you could just call any Pikmin on the board, whether you're near or can see them or not? It seems to me like that would make it too easy. Part of your role as Olimar is to protect and watch over your Pikmin, and that includes not abandoning stragglers. Or you can play a cruel Olimar like my hubby does, and not worry about those two leaf guys that got stuck behind a wall when you took your big group around a hairpin turn.
As for blundering into hazards, you have to pay attention and dance them (my term for moving the group around with the C stick) away from dangers. You can avoid the big bugs, and you'd be amazed how close you can pass by the small (awake) bugs without angering them if you're careful. You have to be aware that when you start flinging Pikmin, they line up behind you, so don't do it with your back to a lake.
That said, if your Pikmin are going to have to carry something through a particular area, you must destroy any enemies that are along the route--the Pikmin will blunder directly into them; they seem, perversely, to seek them out. Fortunately, they will not walk into water when carrying food or parts.
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I try not to be cruel or wasteful. However, I recognize that sometimes the only way to prevent 20 Pikmin being eaten is sacrificing 10 to fight the Big Bug. Also, I need to practice my exploding rock technique.
Your comments are valid re: a universal summons making the game too easy. I guess I just wish the hearing radius was a little larger. It irritates me to have to go around gathering little groups up. But I'll get over it.
I may actually go buy this game.
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However, I recognize that sometimes the only way to prevent 20 Pikmin being eaten is sacrificing 10 to fight the Big Bug. Also, I need to practice my exploding rock technique.
You can kill the big bugs (and, indeed, any enemy, theoretically) without losing any Pikmin, if you're careful. For the big bugs, I find the best strategy is to get directly behind him and start throwing Pikmin onto his back. They'll get some good shots in before he even wakes up all the way. Then, because he has all these Pimin on his back, he'll stop to shake them off, rather than turning around immediately to start eating Pikmin. You keep throwing Pikmin at his back, he keeps stopping to shake them off until he's dead, and he never managed to turn all the way around. Hugs for everyone! And make sure you kill any small bugs in the area before going after the big guy, or you'll find they swarm in to see what all the excitement is. I always feel like a failure if I lose any Pikmin in any fight other than a boss battle. I've restarted a day because of a 10 Pikmin loss many times.
I may actually go buy this game.
Since it's one of the first games ever for the GC, it can be had for a mere $20 new, and you'll probably find a number of used copies at your local EB games for even less. My first impulse was to offer to sell you my copy, but I'm not 100% sure I'll never want to play it again. The game mechanics of Pikmin 2 are identical to the original, but the goals are different enough to make it a significantly different play experience. I kind of miss the pressure to get as much accomplished as possible every day.
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Thank you all for being so moral that a video game with dodgy moral implications and unsavory similarities to shameful pasts is getting under your skin. I am not being sarcastic.
Ah, but really you should be. I'm waaay too pessimistic, and really, I need to be slapped silly. I don't actually take life this seriously all the time. Really.
I do think "be aware it's wrong in real life, but enjoy the game" is the proper attitude. I can enjoy going on a Vice City rampage without losing sight of how WRONG it is to really act like that. Same same.
A very good point. There have been a lot of games that I've enjoyed, especially Vice City and Pikman, then paused to think, Oh my god, am I a horrible person? Especially when I'm in rush hour, and I have this overwhelming urge to just mow people on the side walk down.
So, Va, how are you liking Pikman II? I wont get to play until Sept 8th, my SO's b-day, but it's sounding really good.
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So, Va, how are you liking Pikman II? I wont get to play until Sept 8th, my SO's b-day, but it's sounding really good.
I got to play for about 3 hours last night, and here are my initial impressions.
The look and feel of the game, and the controls are essentially identical.
They have made it even more devestatingly cute by adding more audio events for the Pikmin. The have an adorable little chant they do when they're carrying something, and sometimes they sing. When they're idle, they sometimes make whimpering sounds that are distressingly similar to the sounds they make when they're being harmed, so that will take some getting used to.
The two new Pikmin types have unique powers. The purples are as strong and heavy as 10 normal Pikmin, and they pound the ground when you toss them--apparently they can stun some enemies with their enormous asses, but I've not seen it yet. The whites are immune to poison, are themselves poisonous when ingested by an enemy, they're extra fast, and, I think, extra cute with their glowing red eyes. Also, yellows are now immune to electricity, which is a new hazard.
Another new feature is two different kinds of "sprays" you can make from berries your Pikmin find in the field. One spray powers up your Pikmin, the other spray petrifies enemies.
A fantastic new feature is the "Piklopedia" where you accumulate data on all the creatures you encounter in the game (hostile and otherwise) and the treasures that you find. Not only can you see how many of a particular enemy you've defeated, you can see how many Pikmin you've lost to that type of enemy as well.
The game keeps more complicated stats, if you like that sort of thing. Not only can you see how many Pikmin you've sacrificed to the Greater Good, you can see just what hazard they fell to, be it battle, fire, drowning, electricity, explosions, poison, or good ol' abandonment at sunset.
There isn't the same kind of time pressure in this one as in the original Pikmin. You still have the sun-metered day, at the end of which you must gather your Pikmin and flee to the upper atmosphere, but there's no limit to the number of days you can play, so there's really not much time pressure to get a lot (or anything, for that matter) accomplished in one day.
There are now underground "dungeons", and time does not pass at all when you are underground.
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This entire thread sort of makes me want to go play Creatures. Man, I miss that game something fierce sometimes.
(Er, to tie it in: Creatures was a "life simulator" game wherein you raised and bred cute, pseudo-sentient critters and taught them how to not die instantly. It wasn't a hugely goal-oriented game, besides "create a strain of creatures that has some sort of pseudo-culture of not-dying," but the genetics simulator and AI was well-interested and fun to play around with. The sequels were increasingly complex and increasingly bad, but the original was classic.)
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This entire thread sort of makes me want to go play Creatures. Man, I miss that game something fierce sometimes.
Oh, Jesus fuck that game annoyed me. My stepsister was obcessed with it for a time and our house constantly rang with the sound of their creepy little voices.
Let's hope I never have children.
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This entire thread sort of makes me want to go play Creatures. Man, I miss that game something fierce sometimes.
Where can I find this? Sounds like fun. What platform was it for?
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It was a PC game; I suspect it's abandonware by now (as I understand it, the company went bankrupt sometime after Creatures 2, and Creatures 3 was produced by someone new who had the rights), so you should probably be able to find a download relatively easily. If not, it's worth a few bucks.
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Thank you, I will check out the abandonware sites for it. They rock.
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If you find it on the abandonware sites, drop a URL here or in a PM or separate thread? I'd rather like to download it, but I seem to have lost my CD in the move. Sigh.
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I think I might still have that game somewhere. I think I have the originial Creatures, but it might be Creatures 2. If I do still have the disc, I'll make it available--it'll be Monday at the earliest because I'm going to Virginia (the state, not myself) for Labor Day weekend. Visiting the parental-units-in-law.
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I think I might still have that game somewhere. I think I have the originial Creatures, but it might be Creatures 2. If I do still have the disc, I'll make it available--it'll be Monday at the earliest because I'm going to Virginia (the state, not myself) for Labor Day weekend. Visiting the parental-units-in-law.
NoVa or actual Virginia?
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NoVa or actual Virginia?
Roanoke, the prettiest place I have ever been. Well, except for Hawaii, but that was when I was 5. Okay, the prettiest place I have ever been to more than once.
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I think I might still have that game somewhere. I think I have the originial Creatures, but it might be Creatures 2. If I do still have the disc, I'll make it available--it'll be Monday at the earliest because I'm going to Virginia (the state, not myself) for Labor Day weekend. Visiting the parental-units-in-law.
I had this briefly beautiful poetic moment when I thought about how you could take a trip to yourself, and all the ramifications of what that could mean.
That is all.
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That's so lovely, side_show. It reminds me of my favorite mondegreen from the Modest penis song Lives.
Modest penis doth sang:
Everyone's afraid of their own lives
If you could be anything you want I bet
you'd be disappointed, am I right?
Am I right, am I right, am I right?
I doth heard it as:
"Everyone's afraid of their own lies
If you could be anything you want I bet
you'd be this point in my life
Am I right, am I right, am I right?"
...and that's what I thought it was for a very long time. I like my version better.
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I love Roanoke but I'd rather live here in Hawaii.
Virginia is on the list of approved future assignments, though.
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ZOMBIE THREAD!!!
I bought Pikmin 2 about 6 weeks ago. I was playing some of the Challenge levels tonight when I remembered this ancient thread. I love Pikmin 2: what a great mixture of whimsey and strategy.
Also, I think the slight colonization creepiness factor is intentional and adds to the overall quality of the game. It does make you think about the implications of colonization, leadership and social sacrifice.
BRRRAAAAAAIIINS!
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ZOMBIE THREAD!!!
I bought Pikmin 2 about 6 weeks ago. I was playing some of the Challenge levels tonight when I remembered this ancient thread. I love Pikmin 2: what a great mixture of whimsey and strategy.
Also, I think the slight colonization creepiness factor is intentional and adds to the overall quality of the game. It does make you think about the implications of colonization, leadership and social sacrifice.
BRRRAAAAAAIIINS!
This game sounds hella fun. I think I might buy it come next payday. I am a huge Katamari fan, and this sounds like it's just up my alley.
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I don't love it quite as much as Katamari, but there's little I love that much. My copy was $20.00.
I haven't been playing We Love Katamari because my daughter has lost it for me. Grr.
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I hate how basically the only game which I enjoy for the system we have is Oblivion. And soon I'll be off at school, while the 360 remains here. damn that to hell.
I want to play Pikmin. and Katamari. and and and...