The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Achewood => Achewood => Topic started by: ferocious j on October 01, 2004, 07:54:25 pm
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FJ seems to think that Onstad can behave attrociously and that people should just bend over and take it because we like his cartoons.
I'm not really positive which is more atrocious, so I'd like everyone here to help me out.
YOUR CHOICES EXPLAINED
A - As far as I'm aware, the only thing Onstad owes is us, well, nothing really, unless you bought a shirt and are experiencing problems; this is something he seems to be more than willing to take care of. Other than that, it's a comic strip that's free. Does missing out on an occasional update amount to more than brief disappointment for anyone here?
B - Typical jough critiqueposts seem to run the gamut between OK and something like:
Gee, today's strip isn't so great. I guess Onstad was too busy beating his wife to come up with a decent punchline!
I'm paraphrasing, but not by much. The easily-markable line this crosses is when you go from talking about an artist's work (fair game for any sort of criticism) to personal remarks about the artist himself. Why, dude? Why would you go there? Why do you do it so damn often?
This is pretty much my only issue with jough, but it's a pretty big one. You guys who are on the Dumbrella boards know that I'm a fairly level-headed person, all things considered. What do you guys think? Is it time we got some dignity in our lives, or what?
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I totally agree. I used to post here more often, but I just got tired of the whole "review every strip" attitude. I like talking about the strip, and an occasional complaint is fine. But a lot of you seem to talk more about what they don't like about the strip, or even what they don't like about the artist.
And I think we DO owe him a lot for all the strips. I mean, he has done almost nothing harmful to any of us, at least nothing unforgiveable. And if he is "being a dick" here, like Jough seems to think, maybe it's because he gets the impression that half the board thinks he's a lazy piece of shit. Even I get offended at the way some of you talk about him.
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I had always assumed Jough was, y'know, joking. When someone is totally unreasonable, that's the first explanation I generally look to.
Still, I do think it's crappy to complain about when and if Onstad posts a strip. Every single one is a gift that we did nothing to earn.
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Jough's a dick. Onstad's a dick. FJ's a dick, Limmo's a dick, I'm a dick, you're a dick, we're all dicks.
Satisfied?
Jesus, do not put an Al Franken book in these peoples' hands. I'm with you, Va. Unreasonable scrutiny tends to equal attempt at humor. Sometimes it flies, sometimes it flops. Like a certain comic strip that we love and cherish and can be disappointed by on its off days - just like any friend in meatspace.
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I'm not voting in the poll because I don't like the options. If neither are inherently 'bad' then neither can be worse. Anyone has the right to do do/be either option and it just means that's how they are. To choose one seems to me to indicate that you believe a person exhibiting one or the other as a trait is a 'bad person'. That's asinine. We all have qualities we'd like to improve or reactions that we'd like to take back.
The problem reminds of Carlin. Your shit is junk but your neighbor's junk is shit, except we are talking about people's opinions.
An artist puts his work out there and people react; some more favorably than others. If Chris behaved badly at this before (I wasn't there for it) I would say he's doing a much better job of handling it now. So can we just be the happy people we generally are and let this subject go for the third and hopefully last time? It seems to keep coming up periodically and in the same way and it's disconcerting.
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I'm paraphrasing, but not by much. The easily-markable line this crosses is when you go from talking about an artist's work (fair game for any sort of criticism) to personal remarks about the artist himself. Why, dude? Why would you go there? Why do you do it so damn often?
FJ, FJ, surely you're aware that comic strips don't write themselves. Someone writes them. If my mechanic fucks up my car, I don't blame the car.
As far as adding comments about every single strip - well, I don't necessarily chime in on EVERY strip, but that's pretty much what we do here.
Take a look at the Achewood forum section - do you notice a theme? There's a thread about every daily strip, usually with the date in the title. That is the thread for people to discuss that day's strip. Elegant in its simplicity, no?
So what would you dissenters suggest? Not commenting on the strips? You can do that with our FABULOUS HOME GAME! And the beauty of our Home Game is that there's nothing to buy EVER - and you don't even need a computer to NOT post anything!
Most of you would not walk into someone's home and tell them they should reärrange their furniture. My house, my rules. If you don't like them, there are many web sites from which you may choose.
This place is for me and my friends to discuss Achewood and many other topics. I've left the porch open and there's always a freshly tapped keg on the deck. Anyone may come by and party with us. But if you try pissing on the rug or tearing the place apart, you'll be thrown out on your ass.
Somehow that seems unreasonable to people. Dictatorial? Fuck you, it's my site. You want to discuss the strip or anything else, you're welcome to join us. If not, that's fine too. But after today anyone who posts only attacks to other members (ANY other members) without posting anything of value to the discussion is the fuck out of here.
And I'll be the sole arbiter of what is and isn't valuable, although I will respect the opinions of moderators whom I've entrusted to do the job as well.
That is all.
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Sorry about what I said, I've been kind of crabby today. I like pretty much everyone here and I think this is a really cool community, even if some small things annoy me.
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This place is for me and my friends to discuss Achewood and many other topics. I've left the porch open and there's always a freshly tapped keg on the deck.
This is the first I've heard about the keg. I hope it's something tasty.
I, too, think it's weird that everyone freaked out when Onstad starting posting here, but then, it's not my house (note post count, to the left). I would like to thank all of you who do post regularly to this board, because it has served as a very useful source of information when there are references in an Achewood strip that I don't get. Thanks.
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I'm paraphrasing, but not by much. The easily-markable line this crosses is when you go from talking about an artist's work (fair game for any sort of criticism) to personal remarks about the artist himself. Why, dude? Why would you go there? Why do you do it so damn often?
FJ, FJ, surely you're aware that comic strips don't write themselves. Someone writes them. If my mechanic fucks up my car, I don't blame the car.
Except you pay your mechanic to make your car work, and your car working or not working is objective. Onstad is writing comics he enjoys and putting them on the web for others to enjoy for free - why would you personally attack him because you don't like the result of that? Where the hell is that coming from?
I could at least understand if he stiffed you on something you bought, like you ordered something from him and it took a month longer than it should have, or pages were missing out of a book or something, because at that point it's his job to do something for you. But entertaining you with free comics is NOT HIS JOB, and there's no reason for you to expect (let alone demand - I'm looking at you, AugustWest) him to make that a priority in his life. Keeping you amused is not his responsibility.
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Onstad is writing comics he enjoys and putting them on the web for others to enjoy for free - why would you personally attack him because you don't like the result of that? Where the hell is that coming from?
First of all, no one is personally attacking Chris Onstad. I don't know where you're getting that.
But the man and the strip are, once again, NOT ABOVE CRITICISM. Critics write about my work too and sure, sometimes it irks me, but I don't write letters to the editors of various journals trying to insult those who didn't like something I made.
All art is subject to criticism. It is a COMPLIMENT to the artist for us to pay attention enough to discuss what we like and don't like about his work.
I'm not an objectivist, and I'm not a deconstructionist. I'm an old-school Modernist who sees the artist and the art as being sympatico - I don't look at his strips as texts divorced from the whole of human creation.
But entertaining you with free comics is NOT HIS JOB
Sure it is. I have no reason to believe his work consists of anything else.
and there's no reason for you to expect (let alone demand - I'm looking at you, AugustWest) him to make that a priority in his life. Keeping you amused is not his responsibility.
Well, he's free to do what he wants - make strips or not - and I'm free to do what I want - complain that his strips aren't good or that I would have liked to have seen a new strip on a day where he ran a re-run, etc. It's not like I'm calling his house or intruding into his life at all. Prior to his posting here he never even would have known that I complained about him not posting a strip.
He's free to post a strip or not, I'm free to say whatever the fuck I want about it (or not) - and you're free to complain about my complaining. Everything is at will. No one is being forced to do anything here.
I'm a critic of Onstad's work. You're a critic of my posts, which I also provide on the internet for free.
Can you not taste the bitter swallow of irony?
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But entertaining you with free comics is NOT HIS JOB, and there's no reason for you to expect (let alone demand - I'm looking at you, AugustWest) him to make that a priority in his life. Keeping you amused is not his responsibility.
Stupid metaphors. Always getting in the way. Okay, let's try this again. Kapow, it's rude to come in amid a group of friends just to tell them you don't like the way they play together. I'm sure if Onstad wanted people to rush to his aid, he would ask for it in some sort of hilarious but touching plea. I'll admit we could be nicer about things, but until now we assumed that we were criticizing a beloved author from afar. Now that we're doing it to his face, you might notice people being nicer. Probably.
Now on to what you actually said. You said entertaining us was not Mr. Onstad's job. I disagree entirely. It is in fact his job. His business is hawking fine wares, but his job is to entertain. He can do it however he likes, but it's his main occupation at this point. He lives on it.
Just like he was writing for the Simpsons or guest starring on Jack Benny. He entertains us, and that builds his brand. He offers products with that brand and we buy them. We increase his brand by telling our friends about it. We link to his site from others in message boards and so forth. To those of us who post often, the Achewood brand has grown so large it has invaded our speech patterns. We come to count on the stuff like I used to count on Calvin and Hobbes, only moreso because his stuff is looser and can be more expressive. We buy into his serializer stuff, and bid for his paintings. Don't come preaching to us when you don't seem to understand how this sort of thing works now.
It's his job to entertain us, I say boldly. But he is his own employer. He can do it as well and as often as he likes, and only he decides that. We are free to complain. If a Coca Cola (darn, more metaphors) vendor was handing the stuff out on the street and you had some and it tasted like ass, you'd probably tell people, "Hey, that Coke tastes like ass." That doesn't mean you hate Coke or you bear the guy or his workers any malice. It doesn't mean you'll try to get people to stop buying Coke or Coke products. You have just come to expect great things from Roast Beef, er Coke, and you'd like to see it continue to blast off into space and hack Yahoo! and ... uh ... fizz. Let's get off this.
Really it's the little unspoken contract that we're talking about. His imaginary contract with his readership is that they'll get an Achewood quality strip five days a week, plus stuff on Serializer if they pay for it. Naturally that contract is worth no more than what it's written on, but people are jarred when it's broken nonetheless. It's silly to feel like you're owed this stuff, but it would be silly to think people wouldn't come to expect it. Especially people who show their devotion with their wallets.
So don't go traipsing around like the dude is some sort of benign benefactor. He's a businessman, and a good one. He's an entertainer, and a great one. I'm grateful for the free entertainment, but I'll enjoy the stuff the way I see fit. Jough, August West, this crew, and I don't need Johnny-come-latelies busting up in here and acting like we owe it to them to discuss the strip in a way that they approve of. If Ferocious J or others disagree with me, then we'll settle it the way we always do, with wit and candor and usually mutual respect. You we have no respect for. You, I'd like to hear one new though from. Or at least a funny quip.
If you have a problem with the free service that we are providing (Jough is providing), why don't you start your own message board and bitch about us there.
Grraaaaaar!
Wow that was too long. If you've made it all the way down here, congratulations. I have to go upstairs now. JL needs a backrub, and I'm not wearing any #####.
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A bunch of stuff.
Darnit, Jough. It was my turn to hammer at him! These guys only show up every so often. Leave some for the rest of us.
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A bunch of stuff.
Darnit, Jough. It was my turn to hammer at him! These guys only show up every so often. Leave some for the rest of us.
I could've sworn the ? area of your avatar was totally white earlier today. Is it fading in or is my monitor at home just that much better than my work one?
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Yeah, well, I pretty must just jab to the face. I'll leave it to you to work the body, Pedro.
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But entertaining you with free comics is NOT HIS JOB,
Yes it is. Pedro addressed this much better and in more detail than I will, but of course it's his job. He's holding himself out as a professional cartoonist. There's nothing obligating him to be a cartoonist, but as long as that's what he actually does with his time to make a living, it's his job. That's pretty much the definition of "job".
Look, I've got a selgiraffe motive in wanting a great Achewood strip every day. They make my day. It's a little glimmer of humor in an otherwise gray life. But that's not what's motivated my comments on O's publishing schedule.
My job is giving people advice. In my view, O is doing himself a disservice by publishing erratically. Believe it or not, I'm rooting for O to be wildly successful. I plug the strip wherever and whenever I can. O's attitude toward his readers bewilders me sometimes.
Again, I ask you Chris, what the hell do you expect? People comment about works of art and about public figures. Some people are dicks and make uninformed, rude or obnoxious comments. Either get over it or block all our IP addresses, Pat.
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O is doing himself a disservice by publishing erratically.
It's not like I publish "erratically" (I miss a day now and again, just like your average employee) on purpose. I try to write an excellent, non-clichéd, honest piece each day. It's usually six-panel Sunday size. Also, I write thousands of words a week in the character blogs, and try to keep it all chronologically and qualitatively synched. I also produce dozens of pages of new material for print-only projects, produce paintings, conduct interviews, develop products, and manage packing and shipping of thousands of items a month. In my estimation my bar is set very high and when my daily strip doesn't reach it, I don't publish the black-eyed fetus. You're quite aware that this isn't "Mutts." I'm not going to spoon crap out just to meet a self-imposed deadline. I'd rather you and the other readers saw good work rather than Oliver Twist crying on an animated .gif of a gristmill. Most of the best, working "professional" cartoonists publish only one thing once a week. I could publish that way, and if you don't send me fifty dollars, I will. FIFTY DOLLARS FOR CHRIS ONSTAD IN 10/2004.
O's attitude toward his readers bewilders me sometimes.
I worry that the aggressively defensive standpoint of some of the fans on this board is contributing to a notion that I don't appreciate having readers, and that in fact I personally despise them. Not so. It IS annoying when the moderator of the unofficial Achewood messageboard can't help himself from taking out his own frustrations on another artist, but what can you do (where can we vote on his poems?). Call him Salieri if you want, but I think that would be tacky and presumptuous. Don't go down that road, people. ($50, please. chris@paypal.com)
Again, I ask you Chris, what the hell do you expect? People comment about works of art and about public figures. Some people are dicks and make uninformed, rude or obnoxious comments. Either get over it or block all our IP addresses, Pat.
I expect fifty dollars dammit
Again, you will notice that I have not been any weirder or touchier than the average poster in the last couple days. I'm not demanding anything. I've had fun watching this "social art in progress." Wasn't it Christo who threw a rock at a guy and then sold that activity to a rich person? If it's on the screen, it's part of the show, and we all bring different brushes to the brouhaha.
fiftydollars2chris@achewood.concept
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First of all, no one is personally attacking Chris Onstad. I don't know where you're getting that.
right here:
I'm paraphrasing, but not by much. The easily-markable line this crosses is when you go from talking about an artist's work (fair game for any sort of criticism) to personal remarks about the artist himself. Why, dude? Why would you go there? Why do you do it so damn often?
FJ, FJ, surely you're aware that comic strips don't write themselves. Someone writes them. If my mechanic fucks up my car, I don't blame the car.
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And that's an attack... how?
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It IS annoying when the moderator of the unofficial Achewood messageboard can't help himself from taking out his own frustrations on another artist
You play the victim well, Chris. It doesn't seem to me that anyone is taking out their frustrations on you.
If you really have a hard time with your work being criticised, that is a difficult situation for any artist. It goes with the territory of posting your work on the internet or other public fora.
I know it's frustrating as hell when you work hard on something that you think is good work and then see that your "public" is less-than-enthusiastic about it. You can't really do anything about that. All you can do is the best that you can and hope that people like it too. I think you do that. If Achewood tried to please everyone it'd be Ziggy. Not that I'm about to slag off on Ziggy.
But just because someone doesn't gush over how brilliant EVERY strip is doesn't mean that they don't like the BODY of work as a whole. Everyone who posts here regularly has supported your work in one way or another over the past three years.
Sheesh, for the sake of fuck, this meta-bitching isn't helping anything.
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You play the victim well, Chris. It doesn't seem to me that anyone is taking out their frustrations on you.
You play the friendly amnesiac well, Jough!
Three cool cats,
Three cool cats
Are coming up in a beat up car,
THEY GLARE IN FRIENDSHIP AS THEY HAND YOU A CANDY BAR
Talking on about how sharp they are.
Three cool cats.
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Well, my 2 cents and all, but I just got used to the regime at which Achewood is created. And with the blogs, which I think are a touch that no other comic has, (and wouldnt' work so well in ones without such strongly developed characters that can work solo so well) it gives amounts of output that I am perfectly happy with.
OK, so some days the strip isn't as good as others... Bummer. It happens. What ae you going to do about it? Complain? I pretty much have given up on commenting on strips if they don't do much for me. Doesn't mean I necessarily post if it does...
So anyway. I think it's cool if you're around here Onstad. I just wish everyone would chill out a bit!
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People on this forum are too grumpy.
Oh, and hello.
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People on this forum are too grumpy.
Oh, and hello.
I maintain that people outside this forum are not grumpy enough!
Hello, Silverberg. Welcome to our message board. Make yourself comfortable and stick around. We generally have a pretty good time here.
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I will address the issue of whether it's a job or not. It is.
It's Onstad's means of employment as far as we can tell, so it is.
If I get signed and start selling records, then that is my job. I'm going to have to accept the fact that a bunch of people are going to be saying stuff about what I'm doing. I'm not doing music so people can tell me it's good. I'm not even really doing it to entertain other people, though that is part of it. I just want to is all. But I am going to have to deal with it if lots and lots of people have access to my work and can critique any way they want.
Whether I go and read comments on forums about it, I don't yet know. Whether I get involved with people's thoughts about it, again I don't know, though I plan not to. I'd rather it remained as is, and that I remained anonymous. But that's me...
Anyway... What was the big deal all about anyway?
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B - Typical jough critiqueposts seem to run the gamut between OK and something like:
Gee, today's strip isn't so great. I guess Onstad was too busy beating his wife to come up with a decent punchline!
Well, in jough's defense, maybe she needed to be told twice.
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Years ago, i met Isaac Brock of Modest penis in a bar. The first thing I said to this dude who is pretty much my musical hero was something alongs the lines of "dude, last nights show was pretty lame, but it seems y'all pulled the shit off really well tonight..." Later i felt that was a kinda of stupid thing to say, and the only reason i said it, even though it was how i felt, was that i didn't wanna be all dorky and starry eyed and shit.
So, Onstad, i'm just gonna say welcome back to message board land, hope you enjoyed the vacation, and, no, message baords are still the same as they've always been and you do the best comic ever. thanks.
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Sailor, you get a gold star.
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jough does not seem to understand my point at all. Can someone else help me with this? The rub of it is essentially as follows:
ACCEPTABLE:
Dude, today's strip was not so great. I'm not positive Roast Beef would really do something like that; it didn't seem true to the character.
A DICK-ASS THING TO SAY:
Dude, today's strip was not so great. Maybe Onstad was too busy hitting the bottle or cheating his merchandise customers again!
Once again I have highlit the questionable portion in helpful italics. The issue re-stated is that it seems like jough likes to take a decidedly personal, artist-attacking cant to his more critical posts a statistically-significant portion of the time, and it pretty much sucks. I suppose I could take it easy and assume he's joking, but that shit isn't really all that funny.
I don't really have a problem discussing the strip itself, and I like the discussions you guys have -- why else would I keep coming here? -- but I'm tired, tired, tired of jough's "Onstad shit in my sandbox and I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE WAH WAH WAH here are some personal insults now" attitude.
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It is official: FJ has no sense of humour whatsoever.
Do you just read Achewood for the articles?
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It is possible but highly unlikely that I have a poorly-developed sense of humor.
More likely, you really suck at joking around when it comes to strip/creator commentary. A look at your posts from the beginning suggest to me that you have issues with Onstad for some poorly-defined reason and like to take it out on him here on the internet.
If I receive proof that I'm the only one who has ever had this thought cross his mind since this board's inception, I'll shut up about it forevermore (maybe), but I doubt this will be the case.
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It has crossed my mind that Jough has issues with Onstad. And with maybe everyone else on the planet. But as long as he is mostly amusing about it, so what?
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It is possible but highly unlikely that I have a poorly-developed sense of humor.
More likely, you really suck at joking around when it comes to strip/creator commentary. A look at your posts from the beginning suggest to me that you have issues with Onstad for some poorly-defined reason and like to take it out on him here on the internet.
Even more likely: You haven't spent enough time with Jough to understand his sense of humor or that the two of you just will NEVER, EVER get along. I think the last is most true.
I suggest that both of you just put it away and zip back up because, for the most part, you've been engaged in a verbal pissing contest for a year now and it makes both of you look small.
Judging just objectively from your posts and your websites you are both funny and creative people. And you both should be smart enough to realize that you are involved in a long-distance negative-sum game.
I mean CRIMINY! It's been a year!
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As I've said in another thread, I'm officially declaring Onstad's appearance controversy time OVER. Things were said, people were pissy but the air seems much clearer now. Conflict can be healing, nnn-kay.
J, I think you are correct, Jough crosses the line occas..., well, OK, regularly. But I think your point would be more valid if Jough's venom was directed only at Onstad. I mean, who hasn't Jough called a drunken cocksucker? Why should Onstad be left out?
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FJ started it. :P
August, you drunken cocksucker, I have no venom directed at ANYONE. I am a bastion of love and healing.
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WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS AROUND HERE, CAN WE?