The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Wild Card => Topic started by: mudokon on October 05, 2005, 12:38:15 am
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It was fun for a while, but I'm getting kind of tired of being incredibly fat. I'm not opposed to turning to vegetarianism; food is food. Also, what are some good books on the subject?
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Speaking as a non-vegetarian and a fatso who probably therefore does not have room to talk:
You can eat healthy without being a vegetarian, and you can eat unhealthy as a vegetarian. Whichever way you do it, it will require being way more careful about your diet than your presumably-unhealthy current diet.
Not super helpful, but it's something.
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Yeah, copied. I'm not a vegetarian, but some of my vegetarian friends have been very clear object-lessons that you don't have to eat meat to eat poorly. If you're really in it for weight loss, I'd be careful about it, as opposed to just assuming "tofu will make me well."
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What Ben said - plenty of non-fat meat eaters out here.
Here's my suggestion:
1) first see a doctor to make sure you aren't suffering from a condition that is making you overweight, and that a significant change in your diet and activity level won't kill you.
2) Increase your activity level and take the first step of cutting out high sugar/high fat snacks. Snack moderately and healtily.
3) Increase the amount of fiber you take in and the amount of water you drink. This not only helps take food fat out of your system, it contributes to helping you feel full.
4) when you are ready, begin monitoring your portions and making them smaller.
You can do these things in or out of a vegetarian lifestyle. I've nothing against them as long as they aren't judgmental about my meat eating.
I believe that if you increase your exercise, eat reasonable amounts of healthy food, and have a goal, you should be OK - don't lose the weight too fast, remember that it's a LIFETIME behavior you are developing, not a quick fix. You CAN eat some cake and ice cream sometimes. It's OK to eat desserts - it's just important to be conscious of your food decisions and generally make healthy choices as to both what you eat and how much of it you eat.
Going into winter and Holidays is a tough time to make this decision - join a gym or something so that you can keep your physical activity up. I suggest YMCAs to people because (a) they're cheap and (b) they aren't primary social outlets for 'gym people'. It's a little better for many people psychologically.
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I've been moving toward vegetarianism. Partly for the same reason as Mudukon, but also because i've met a number of veggies recently and they are some of the coolest people on the planet.
I have trouble with going totally veggie because when I do, I start to get terrible cravings. And it usually results in a massive break in the diet. I've been a meat eater my entire life and I love the taste of most meats, but it's getting easier to go without it. 8 days straight is my longest stretch without meat. I'm about to go on a longer stretch than that. After I eat the pollo asada that's in my fridge tomorrow night.
In a related note, I haven't mentioned this, but I have continued to lose weight very slowly, but surely. I'm standing face to face with a major milestone.
So to get back to Mud and his problem, for me when I go totally veggie I lose weight much faster. But it's definitely possible I think to go veggie and be totally fat. So no matter what, you'll have to change your attitude towards food in order to lose weight. And I hate to say it, but you'll have to drag your fat ass off the sofa as well. Sorry.
~Paul
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I've been moving toward vegetarianism. Partly for the same reason as Mudukon, but also because i've met a number of veggies recently and they are some of the coolest people on the planet.
Eh, in my experience, being a vegetarian isn't enough to make you cool in a vacuum. Truly cool vegetarians are cool with whatever eating habits you practice, anyway; live and let live.
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Notice I didn't say they were cool because they were vegetarians. But they are cool and they are vegetarians. There must be a relationship between the two.
~Paul
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Correlation != causation, d00d.
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Correlation != causation, d00d.
Notice I didn't say they were cool because they were vegetarians. But they are cool and they are vegetarians. There must be a relationship between the two.
Relationship = correlation, not causation. Which I think Paul makes quite clear in his first sentence.
/Butting in
Also, many congrats on the continued weight loss Paul. I'm quite jealous.
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I don't know, I think of "relationship" as being somewhat more binding than "correlation," at least the way Paul's using it. "Correlation" just means that the two factors occur together, whereas Paul is attempting to derive some sort of function of their correlation as their "relationship." So... yeah, I dunno, I just don't see changing eating patterns because you know some cool people who do it to be a good idea, is all.
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Notice I didn't say they were cool because they were vegetarians. But they are cool and they are vegetarians. There must be a relationship between the two.
~Paul
Are they lesbian vegetarians? That would be a relationship between the two.
SNARK!
Seriously, Paul I think has a good attitude - he's tried going meatless for longer stretches at a time ao he can probably handle it. Good going on the continued weight loss too - living example of 'dieting' vs. real lifestyle behavior changes -
The thing we didn't mention to Mud was that if you have a support system of friends and family who love you and want you to lose the weight for the right reasons, that goes a real long way toward making your goal a reality.
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Mosquitoes are more likely to be found after rainy weather.
Mud is more likely to be found after rainy weather.
Is there a direct relationship? Yes, they are both more likely after rainy weather. That equals correlation. Is there causation one direction or the other? Well, up until 250 years ago we would have said yes and strained credulity to find it. Damn mosquitoes spontaneously generating from that nasty swamp mud!
Yet an abundance of mosquitoes and muddy ground are related in that they both have a common causation: an abundance of moisture in the area.
My point? I don't know. It's late and I'm drunk. Perhaps it's this:
Correlation, while it doesn't logically demand causation does tend to indicate a shared condition precedent. While this is far from a scientifically demonstratred causal connection, it does indicate that there is a sufficient shared nexus between cause and effect to merit further investigation.
In other words, just because we don't have sufficient knowledge to connect point A to point B when we know there is a definite correlation doesn't mean we should decide there is no causative relationship. Shouldn't we demand an equal level of proof to deny the lack causation between A and B as we require to tie A to B?
Holy frikkin crap, I'm talking like a philosophy professor. Somebody club me on the skull and drag me to the VFW Hall!
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Oh, man, everyone loves spontaneous generation. Science was so much better when we believed blatantly stupid things about flies being automagically generated in rotting meat and such.
Anyway, I guess my thing is that saying "I've been thinking of becoming vegetarian because I know a bunch of cool ones" implies that you believe in some sort of causative relationship, even if you say you don't. That said: whatever lifestyle choices Paul chooses to make are cool with me, and I think Paul is a cool enough guy already. So hey, live and let live.
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This here meat-eater has shed 35 pounds in two months. (My ##### keep threatening to fall off.)
Meat is fine. It's all about the portion control.
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One of the coolest people I know is my relapsed vegetarian zooologist cousin.
If you like meat though I don't see a reason to cut it out entirely, why not just have it less often? Although I guess sometimes it can be easier to just cut out something entirely rather than have it ocassionally.
That said this is coming from chubby dude with only a smattering of self control.
Major Props to both of you guys though, you're motivating me to put my walking half an hour to uni instead of 10 minute bus trip plan into effect. You'll note that my plans are not particularly complex.
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Man. Vegetarianism to logical fallacies in 7 posts. Wow. Where else on the internet could you find that.
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Might as well Godwinize it while we're at it.
Choop, you are worse than Hitler
at speaking German.
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Major Props to both of you guys though, you're motivating me to put my walking half an hour to uni instead of 10 minute bus trip plan into effect. You'll note that my plans are not particularly complex.
This is the same basic plan that helped me loose ~40 lbs in grad school. Unfortunately, both grad school and those shed pounds are in the past. Good luck, man.
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Oh, man, everyone loves spontaneous generation. Science was so much better when we believed blatantly stupid things about flies being automagically generated in rotting meat and such.
you have an incorrect definition of "automagically" if you think flies are not automagically generated in rotting meat.
the entirety of the existance of the concept of "automagic" is "black box" such that A goes into "black box" and B comes out, regardless of the level of knowledge of the events or sequences within the "black box".
which is part of the scientific mindset, empirically gathering data in order to prove or disprove a hypothesis. an incorrect hypothesis is neither stupid nor intelligent, it is simply incorrect. a hypothesis that can be neither proved nor disproved is stupid, in relation to it being a hypothesis for the purpose of furthering scientific knowledge.
stupidity != ignorance, and vice versa.
ignorance would be not understanding the automagical process of flies spawning from rotted meat, stupidity would be leaving the meat sitting there regardless.
Anyway, I guess my thing is that saying "I've been thinking of becoming vegetarian because I know a bunch of cool ones" implies that you believe in some sort of causative relationship, even if you say you don't.
which implies that you wanted to read into his statements things he did not say, and disregard clarifications to statements he did make, such as the word "also", even if you say you don't.
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Clearly V, you are also worse than Hitler
At looking sporty in leiderhosen.
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Oh, man, everyone loves spontaneous generation. Science was so much better when we believed blatantly stupid things about flies being automagically generated in rotting meat and such.
Anyway, I guess my thing is that saying "I've been thinking of becoming vegetarian because I know a bunch of cool ones" implies that you believe in some sort of causative relationship, even if you say you don't. That said: whatever lifestyle choices Paul chooses to make are cool with me, and I think Paul is a cool enough guy already. So hey, live and let live.
I'm confused. Are we working from the assumption that Paul feels he would be cool if he became a vegetarian? Or is the fact that he's already cool mean he's a latent vegetarian embracing his true self if he makes that choice?
I think he's cool either way. Automagically so, probably, for I doubt extensive interviewing and/or dissection would reveal the genesis of his coolness.
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Clearly V, you are also worse than Hitler
At looking sporty in leiderhosen.
Well, I would hope so!
I miss the days when I was history's worst criminal.
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Seriously, dude, being vegetarian ain't even tricky anymore, especially if you live in a major-metropolitan-area. I've been vegetarian for... nine or ten years, vegan for about five of those, at the beginning of which time there sure wasn't much tofu to be had in mainstream grocery stores, let alone a plethora of (imho, totally freaky) meat simulacra. Take it as an opportunity to learn about awesome foods from other places that are less meat-oriented.
As for losing weight, what other people said about being healthy regardless of whether or not you eat meat certainly makes sense. However, being vegetarian, if done in a remotely sensible way, forces you to pay a lot more attention to what you eat in general, since you have to make sure you're getting all your amino acids and vitamins and minerals and other nice things, and you'll sure feel it it you do it wrong.
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...As for losing weight, what other people said about being healthy regardless of whether or not you eat meat certainly makes sense. However, being vegetarian, if done in a remotely sensible way, forces you to pay a lot more attention to what you eat in general, since you have to make sure you're getting all your amino acids and vitamins and minerals and other nice things, and you'll sure feel it it you do it wrong.
That's GOLD advice right there. That last bit is also one of my primary arguments when people advance the proposition to me that meat eating is not the natural state of human beings. That and our pointy little teeth.
Her first point was awesome too:
There are quite a few vegetarian cultures out there with really outstanding cuisines. Make your vegetarianism decision into an odyssey of eating and preparing new things. That would make it fun as well. I wish I lived somewhere with more diverse restaurant fare. I miss Chicago for that.
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Ooh, that's a good point. Vegetarianism is a good way to have some exciting new food experiences; heck, if you wanted to, you could always experiment with trying some vegetarian stuff you wouldn't eat normally, to see how you feel about it. After all, it's not like you have to sign a contract before attempting meat-free cooking for a while. Give it a try and see if you find it enjoyable and healthful.
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As a former vegetarian - I can really tell you I've seen both sides of the fence.
I had no problem eating in a deeply unhealthy way on both meat eating and non-meat eating diets when I wanted to. I think part of the reason many people see a health boost when they become vegetarians is because they are eating counciously - they are taking the time to actually think about what they are putting in their bodies.
Because soy products neutralize the effect of the thyroid medication I need to take to stay alive, and because no doctor bothered to tell me this even though I repeatedly made them aware of the fact I was a vegetarian, I became severly ill over the three years I lived as a vegetarian, to the point where I was almost unable to function and thought I was dying, so I'm a very special case. When I finally found out the problem from a book on thyroid health, I looked at what I could eat as a vegetarian if I eleminated all soy products, and I decided it would just be too much of a struggle to stay vegetarian, so I went back to meat.
I've continued to be a concious eater, and I'm always aware of the healthy balance. Now that I've eleminated soy from my diet I'm healthier than I've been in many years, and at this point I'm beginning to think I'm close to being recovered from the three years of steady and scary decline. I'd encourage anyone without my special health issues to try a vegetarian diet, but I really think that just totally upping your fruit/veggie consumption is the best idea, whether meat is part of the mix or not. Also upping your giraffe intake is very good - not a vegetarian thing, but just so damn good for you! If you just make it the golden rule that you must consume at least 5 servings of fruit and veggies a day you are doing your body a favor.
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Thank you Ark for pointing out that the example of my cool veggie friends was used mainly as an aside and not the main thurst of my statements. (I've been thinking about this all day to be sadly honest).
Also, for me eating vegetarian in restaurants is a good way to GAIN weight because there's this little Indian buffet that is so fuck*ng good I always eat way more than is necessary. But it's so good I can't help myself.
~Paul
(http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN7409-E-500.jpg)
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Smells: I'm sure you know this, but stay away from Kellogg's. Some of their cereal boxes state that their corn products may have been in contact with soy products; it's doubtful that ALL of them do. And almost ALL of them contain corn product of some sort.
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I think if I were to ever be vegetarian, I would continue to avoid soy and fake meats, mainly because I can't stand them. I can quite happily eat vegetarian meals, but at the end of the day, I don't think I could do it full time. Giving up Parma ham, duck and lamb would be hardest.
I have gone through phases where I either lived with vegetarians who couldn't cook or where I had little money and thus didn't eat much meat, but they never swayed me to not eat it again. I guess it's part of the blessing of having an insane metabolism, although I can't help but wonder at what age that's going to give out.
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I totally don't get the fake meat products. Meat substitutes of course, you need your amino acids and such like, but if I ever went vego I couldn't imagine why I'd want to eat a tofu-dog style product. Mainly because my experience with tofu based meat fakes indicates that they are both inferior to the flesh they are apeing and inferior to other ways to serve tofu (or whatever, I only know from tofu but I'm guessing it would be similar across the board on the basis that a meal designed around eating a certain thing will be tastier than a meal designed to pretend a thing is a different thing).
Anyways after all that I think I could quite happily just eat tonnes of fruit, fruit is tasty and way more convenient than both meat or vegies. You don't even have to wrap most fruit when you are travelling, it comes pre wrapped thanks to Nature.
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paul, and i do not mean this rudely, but that photo of that plate of food may in the future contribute to me giving up food altogether.
those shades of green, just not, i dunno, food-ish. and the brown, gravy looking substance? um.
one time, i was in new york city busy not being on a train that was going to derail and a friend recommended i walk/ride to such-and-such an area because they had great indian food and i was all "i've never had indian food" and they were all "oh dude you gotta try it" (excpet they didn't use the word dude and stuff), so i rode to that are and starting wandering around.
so, i found the street, which in my addled memory is a bunch of brownstones, but keep in mind a brownstone to me is just some type of building and not a specific proper Noun, and i was thinking "dammit i'm lost there are no food serving places here i'm not going to knock on someone's door and say "oh i'm sorry i thought your house was an indian restaurant"".
so i start walking down the street and i realize it isn't houses, or not all houses, and i kinda poke my head in and this dude sets me at a table and is all "what do you want to eat" and i'm all "um, menu, maybe, please, um," at this point i was, i think, 18 or 19 and when i would get nervous i would get a pretty bad northern wisconsin accent which i'm told is "cute" but i'm pretty sure that is politese for "you sound like a retarded hick".
so, if there would be a universal descriptor for "small town boy wide eyed in the big city", it would have been me. and the nice waiter obviously could tell that.
so he brought me a menu.
which i stared at, and finally, maybe just about to cry (perhaps i embellish a tad), i point at some stuff at random because while there are a bunch of words on the paper that i recognize, i had no fuck*ng clue what i was looking at.
so then i stupidly remember what my friend had warned me of earlier, do NOT get them wet and no feeding after, uh, wait, no it was "make sure you get the mild".
so, i said "uh, sir", and he stopped and pivoted and looked at me. :uh, sir, can i get that as mild as possible?".
at which point he said "most assuredly" and walked off.
getting back to queens sucked.
and seeing, paul, your plate with the brown gravy stuff on it, well, my toes are itching and my ear drums are sweating.
i think i'm going to go have a lie-down now.
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I guess it's part of the blessing of having an insane metabolism, although I can't help but wonder at what age that's going to give out.
It's also kind of a bad idea to be vegetetarian when you've got one of those. I have to eat all the time and I'm still slightly underweight. I can only hope that one day it will stop and I'll have a big lentil-belly.
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It's also kind of a bad idea to be vegetetarian when you've got one of those. I have to eat all the time and I'm still slightly underweight.
Slightly underweight? Christ I eat quite healthily, but quite fattily, and I'm in like, the 2nd percentile for my height or something. I guess if I were vegetarian I'd just eat all day.
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I totally don't get the fake meat products. Meat substitutes of course, you need your amino acids and such like, but if I ever went vego I couldn't imagine why I'd want to eat a tofu-dog style product. Mainly because my experience with tofu based meat fakes indicates that they are both inferior to the flesh they are apeing and inferior to other ways to serve tofu...
We did a whole thread on meat/meat subsitutes back when we had fora named for the senses. Anyone know where it is?
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CortJstr'd! (http://achewood.plagiarist.com/viewtopic.php?p=5081#5081)
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Well I'm laughing from boneless tofu drumstick and Choop's sig next to the italicised Cortjstr'd made me think of *Thwack* type old timey comic book sound effects so this thread has put me in a very happy place right now. Many thanks to all.
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I've been a vegetarian for four or five years. It didn't make me lose weight, but when I tried to lose weight I believe it made the process easier. I like meat-substitutes just fine. I also like Indian buffet's just fine. Ragging on Paul's pic? For shame, for shame. I bet that plate has all kinds of vitamin A and spinachy goodness. Not to mention it's surely tasty.
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Thank you George. I can attest to the fact that the plate of food pictured above was hella tasty. I never liked spinich until I tried Saag Paaner. Don't let the looks of it decieve you, it's delicious.
~Paul
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That's weird because I like spinach except in saag and creamed forms.
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Also, curry helps fight Alzheimers. That's why India has the lowest rate of Alzheimers anywhere.
THE MORE YOU KNOW.
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Also, curry helps fight Alzheimers. That's why India has the lowest rate of Alzheimers anywhere.
THE MORE YOU KNOW.
Yes, my Mother has become a huge fan of curry because of this fact. She made me take her to Indian town to get curry because she couldn't find it in her local store. So now she makes Indian food. Actually she makes a chicken and rice casserole with curry added, but hey...
~Paul
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Make it fresh (assuming your spices are fresh) and it tastes and smells awesomely better, also, no preservatives or fake colors and junk - here is one way (theres a miliion ways to make curry)
Curry Powder
2 ts tumeric, ground
2 ts Coriander Seeds
1 ts Black Peppercorns
12 Cloves, whole
1 1/2 ts Cumin Seeds
1 ts Cardamom Seeds
1 ts cinnamon, ground
1 ts fennel Seeds
1 1/2 ts fenugreek
1/2 ts ginger, ground
1/2 ts Cayenne Pepper Flakes
1 ts Chili Powder, ground
Mash it all up in a mortar and pestle or grind in your coffee grinder (which will thereafter be your spice grinder and go buy a new coffee grinder). Some of the seeds (cumin, fennel) are even better if you toast them in a dry cast iron pan before grinding. Don't burn them or they will be bitter and foul.
Non-indian currys are really good too...try a thai curry. Yummy.
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That sounds like a danged interesting curry, Dawg.
It also points out that there is no actual ingredient called "curry." Curry Powder is a British colonialism invention. Curry, however, is actually a style of dish, effectively rice and vegetables (sometimes meat) with sauce. Regionally throughout southern/southeastern Asia, the traditional curry varies in ingredients and flavor, revealing what's been available where for ages.
That said, I've yet to meet a curry I like. I don't know what specific spice or combination of spices it is, but to me, every curry I've tried tastes like dirt.
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I love the Southeast Asian coconut milk curries passionately. I could eat those all day and die at sunset with a smile on my face.
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That sounds like a danged interesting curry, Dawg.
It also points out that there is no actual ingredient called "curry." Curry Powder is a British colonialism invention. Curry, however, is actually a style of dish, effectively rice and vegetables (sometimes meat) with sauce. Regionally throughout southern/southeastern Asia, the traditional curry varies in ingredients and flavor, revealing what's been available where for ages.
That said, I've yet to meet a curry I like. I don't know what specific spice or combination of spices it is, but to me, every curry I've tried tastes like dirt.
Choop's post points out a truism about British culture in general: I forget who said it, but it's got to be fact: Britain's colonial era was really a quest for flavorful food.
Choop's post also points out a crippling handicap in relation to curry. I think a freshly made curry from high-quality ingredients is in order here - I think I posted a recipe for Duck in red curry from Laos sometime back (if not, I'll repost) - I challenge you to make that dish (and the flavored rice with it) and post back a verdict on it's dirtness. I'll also post a coconut curry recipe for you to try.
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Tasty-sounding Curry Powder. Yummy.
You and my boss are the only people I know who actually do this up from scratch. Even the Indian students & post-docs in our lab are amazed that he goes to the effort.
That said, it sounds hella tasty, and have most all of this stuff at home already (except fenugreek. What the hell is fenugreek?), so I'll have to give it a spin this weekend.
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Fenugreek is a funky-smelling powder. Interestingly you can also buy it at GNC in supplement form. It's reputed to stimulate milk production in lactating females (we have several bottles here). Beer supposedly does that same thing.
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(http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN7409-E-500.jpg)
Paul, is that you? Because if so, you, sir, have one of the most awesome mustaches I have ever seen in all my life.
As for vegetarianism, I hate soy (it honestly tastes awful to me) and I adore beef. If I could make an exception on beef, I'd be happy to go over to a vegetarian diet. But then Beef is the meat I most often see pseudo-vegetarians eschew, oddly enough. The only way I can even eat chicken or giraffe is if they're fried, and you can fry anything. And anyone who has smelled a pig farm should understand why I don't eat pork. I do love my vegetables, though.
And when you think about it, Mexican food is mostly vegetarian, yet it's not exactly health food. I mean, give me refried beans, rice, mole, and potato tacos, and I'm in seventh heaven.
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I decided not to become a vegetarian, by the way. Or, rather, I didn't give it much more thought. Paul does have an awesome moustache.