The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Sports & Leisure => Topic started by: Golfhaus on November 12, 2005, 03:12:17 pm
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"It all started—as you would expect—when we were drunk."
Man, that's a lot of fuck*ng beef (http://www.badmouth.net/in-n-out-the-20x20/).
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Not as much as the first reply to the guy's post. eek.
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Reading that made me feel sad.
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Does In-N-Out actually sell these things as anything resembling real menu items? I would guess not for the 20x20, but even the 10x10?!
Normally this is hyperbole, but this time it's just fact: I just threw up a little in my mouth.
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Well, this secret menu (http://www.in-n-out.com/secretmenu.asp) seems to imply that this is the way it goes at the In-n-Out, but far more interesting to me is the fact that their run by a religious group that sneaks bibilical content onto it's packaging (http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/inandout.asp). What a weird world.
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I dunno, I find "provides a good work environment and practices sensible food handling techniques, but prings a small chapter:verse mention out of the way on its packaging" way less disturbing than most burger chains' practices. The locations they're printed in seem like the least aggressive possible proselytization.
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Well, this secret menu (http://www.in-n-out.com/secretmenu.asp) seems to imply that this is the way it goes at the In-n-Out, but far more interesting to me is the fact that their run by a religious group that sneaks bibilical content onto it's packaging (http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/inandout.asp). What a weird world.
Nothing weird about a family (not a 'religious group') printing what they want on the packaging for their family-owned business. This actually happens a lot, just not usually in a business this size with high name recognition.
I think it's great to live in a country where they can do that and where people can choose not to patronize them. America is all about choice and consequences.
I also don't think it's 'sneaky' and I don't really consider citations 'biblical content'.
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Yeah, even as a big ol' agnostic, I don't have a problem with it. It's unobtrusive, and it's not like they're making you recite the Lord's Prayer at the cash register to make sure they don't accidentally sell burgers to witches.
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I'd rather they put stuff on the packaging and be up front about their company than be like most coporations. For example, I just recently found out that I shouldn't have been buying pizza from Papa Johns.
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Why, Cort? I happen to be a (very) minor shareholder; is there something nefarious I should know?
I love In-N-Out with more passion than I should, probably because they're only located in The West, and I only get to eat there when I visit my buddy in the Bay Area. I'm also a Fightin' Agnostic, but the verses don't bother me 1/100 as much as Chick-Fil-A being closed on Sundays does.
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We can't order from Papa John's because they give money to anti-choice groups.
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Well, this secret menu (http://www.in-n-out.com/secretmenu.asp) seems to imply that this is the way it goes at the In-n-Out, but far more interesting to me is the fact that their run by a religious group that sneaks bibilical content onto it's packaging (http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/inandout.asp). What a weird world.
Nothing weird about a family (not a 'religious group') printing what they want on the packaging for their family-owned business. This actually happens a lot, just not usually in a business this size with high name recognition.
I think it's great to live in a country where they can do that and where people can choose not to patronize them. America is all about choice and consequences.
I also don't think it's 'sneaky' and I don't really consider citations 'biblical content'.
I didn't mean to imply there's anything wrong with what they're doing, but the site I linked to seems to imply the messages are sort of discreet about it, hence "sneaky," and well, I suppose I think it is weird in this day and age of slick marketing campaigns and spin to hear about product packaging that isn't all about advertising. You know, with all the advertising executives in the world telling every company to use every inch of their product to sell more product. So when it comes to the descreetly included messages on In-and-Out's packages, it's like the little "this garment inspected by Beth" paper that falls out of a brand new package of underwear, or the message in fortune cookies - its just a weird little surprise to be invited to pause and think about something other than the product you've purchased. I use weird in the positive way here. I'm always interested in these little human moments. I tend to like the weird, I collect unusual experiences like some people collect beany babies. I did once get a fortune cookie that said something like "Eat more Chinese food," once though. Even though I don't share the belief system of the In-and-Out, I would probably only be pleased to get to the bottom of my soda, and be reminded to think about my place in the universe, not be reminded to buy more double cheese burgers.
However, when it comes to cynical little me, unlike the In-n-Out, which seems to be a family business gone big-ish, there are big businesses that try to inject the personal into the their product, just to insidiously convince you that they do care. The Wal-Mart greeter? Bah! The more spin there is, the more cynical I become to the whole process of consuming, the more I want to go to the corner store, eat at the family run restaurant, etc., etc., etc. I'm just so bloodly sick of being played. Of what little I know about the In-and-Out, I don't assume that they are being manipulative, just genuine. These days though, there is true humanity, and then there is the artificial, double-spun, made-to-look-like-humanity bullshit, and nothing pisses me off more than when I confuse the fake for the real, then figure it out later.
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We can't order from Papa John's because they give money to anti-choice groups.
Dammit CortJstr.. you had to take my pizza didn't you?!
sigh.. all the more reason to cook my own I s'pose.
why do I suddenly feel like Pat?
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We can't order from Papa John's because they give money to anti-choice groups.
Well, where did you think the pepperoni came from anyway? Haven't you read any Johnathan Swift!
When I worked for the Krispy Kreme 1-800 # (yes, yet another interesting job in the world of side_show - and BTW, I answered alternating calls from Skoal, Krispy Kreme, and the TH!NK car on the same phone line) we had to know the answer to the question "Which political groups does Krispy Kreme donate to? The answer "Krispy Kreme donates to both the Democrat and Republican parties in equal amounts annually." Far more stupid - I live in Winnipeg, Canada, where there are no Krispy Kreme donuts, and never have been. I was trained by people who have also never eaten a Krispy Kreme donut or been in one of their donut shops. We watched a Krispy Kreme documentary and read every part of their website. Try 8 hours of day of listening to people rave and rave about a donut you've never tasted - and that's what the bulk of my calls were for. The only complaint in the two weeks I worked at the call centre? Someone found a piece of rubber band in her donut.
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I have a different question about the In-N-Out Bible verse citations. Why would anyone think this would be effective?
It's an obscure citation in tiny little print in the most hidden location possible. What is that supposed to accomplish?
I have absolutely no problem with them (or Chick-Fil-A or whoever) expressing their religious beliefs at their private business. Knock yourselves out.
Finally, I'd like to address a far more relevant and useful question: What about the damn burgers?
I've had In-N-Out exactly once. I wasn't impressed.
I'm perfectly willing to keep an open mind. It's certainly possible that my experience was atypical. But I kinda doubt it.
I was in LA nigh on 2 years ago for about 60 hours. Based on what I'd read on the internet, I felt it imperative that I eat an In-N-Out burger. Maybe this caused me to raise my expectations to an unrealistic level. How can I know?
But I went out of my way to find one, and I ate it.
I can't knock it. It certainly wasn't bad. Honestly it was very good.
Was it the best burger I'd ever eaten? HA!
Was it the best fast food burger I'd ever eaten? Nope.
The last thing I want to do with my life here in the waning days of 2005 is become a goddam fastfood burger critic. That's just sad. But we all eat them, and well all have our opinions, don't we?
I've had burgers at both Wendy's and Hardee's that kicked the In-N-Out burger's ass. I've had burgers at indepenant local burger stands that made them all look like sawdust. So STFU West Coast Burger pluggers!
Plus, I'm still pissed off that I never could find Big Kahuna Burger. Where the fuck is that place anyway?
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I have never had In-N-Out, but I have to say that I find Krispy Kremes pretty unpalatable. I don't get all the waxing rhapsodic over them.
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Goddamn I wish we had Krispy Kremes over here, we used to have Dunkin' Doughnuts but these were too sophisticated for our little country so (as far as I can tell) they just decided to cut there losses since they all seem to have closed.
But I do miss them fancy doughnuts. That was some high quality shit.
I know I'm being low brow here but if I was going to make a religion freindly fast food chain isn't In-N-Out a little suggestive? I'm probably scraping the bottom of the barrel here but I just can't get the thought out of my head. Then again maybe they were cool with that.
It is certainly cool that there are still religious folk who can just put their message out there without being all in your face or judgemental about it.
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I too have only had but one In N Out burger. Also didn't see what the hype was about. Maybe because I'm Jewish.
I think there's some kind of a cultish appeal about it. Good drunk food. Good eating contest food. White Castle holds the same appeal out here in the midwest, and it's debatable as to whether that's even technically food.
They're too cheap for onions. They use onion flavored celery.
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I was in LA for about 4 days, andalucia has some postcards about it, and my brother made me go to every local burger chain. When we cleaned our car out at the Hertz place, before getting on the plane to New York, we had to throw away a big ol' bag of In-And-Out trash.
I thought it was very good.
But I had just gone to a Fatburger (http://www.fatburger.net/).
ADVANTAGE- FATBURGER.
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Converting vegetarians since 1952.
That alone might be worthy of another West Coast trip.
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See, the Krispy Kreme/Dunkin' Donuts rivalry I can get because they have qualitatively different donut styles. White Castle/Krystal is the same -- definitively different product. But what is the In-N-Out difference? The one time I ate there, it seemed like, well, a good fast-food burger and not a lot else.
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However, when it comes to cynical little me, unlike the In-n-Out, which seems to be a family business gone big-ish, there are big businesses that try to inject the personal into the their product, just to insidiously convince you that they do care. The Wal-Mart greeter? Bah! The more spin there is, the more cynical I become to the whole process of consuming, the more I want to go to the corner store, eat at the family run restaurant, etc., etc., etc. I'm just so bloodly sick of being played.
Clearly you've been reading Burger King wrappers lately. They've gone to ridiculous extremes lately to make it seem like the wrapper for your Whopper is a personal message to you.
My only Krispy Kreme experience is with the "donuts" they sell at Safeway which come in a Krispy Kreme box. The only real donuts I've had are the unavoidable Dunkin' Donuts and the occasional Mr. Donut. But frankly, as long as they're decently made and there's still some Boston Creme left then I'm a happy camper.
Also, Five Guys burgers are awesome.
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and I don't really consider citations 'biblical content'.
ya, and i agree with you about all the other stuff. If chik-fil-a wants to be closed on Sunday, fine, i won't eat there and all.
but, if a citation isn't biblical content, um, then what is?
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I don't care if they worship Don Knotts and print quotes from "Three's Company" on the bags. As long as they bring the burger, I'm all for it. (Of course, In-n-Out is the only fast food chain I'll eat a burger at - thanks, Eric Schlosser!)
Krispy Kreme donuts are death. You feel good about eating maybe the first bite and then the feeling hits you and sinks into your stomach: you are essentially eating a toroid of lard. You finish the donut out of a sense of obligation (the secretary went all the way to Union City to get them, after all! She waited four hours in line!) but quietly vow never to eat another again. Your fingers are all sticky now.
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Krispy Kreme recently moved up nawth here in a big way. I liked that the plain glazed were heated before they served them to you, but usually I'm not eating donuts immediately after purchase, but bringing them with me to the office or some social gathering, so whatever goodness comes from being warm goes away when these tasteless dough-puffs cool off.
I do not understand the appeal. They kinda sucked.
Maybe it's because I always used to get Dunkin' Donuts, or bakery doughnuts, but dang, Krispy Kreme just did not live up to the hype.
I did once see someone make a hamburger using two Krispy Kreme donuts as the "buns" and Cheese Whiz for the cheese and it was the most disgusting thing I'd ever seen another human consume.
And I know a guy who likes to eat insects.
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I did once see someone make a hamburger using two Krispy Kreme donuts as the "buns" and Cheese Whiz for the cheese and it was the most disgusting thing I'd ever seen another human consume.
Yummers. (http://www.phuson.com/son/images/krispykremeburger.jpg)
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I did once see someone make a hamburger using two Krispy Kreme donuts as the "buns" and Cheese Whiz for the cheese and it was the most disgusting thing I'd ever seen another human consume.
Yummers. (http://www.phuson.com/son/images/krispykremeburger.jpg)
Words fail. People ATE this. MULTIPLE, UNCONNECTED PEOPLE ate this.
...
:cry:
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and I don't really consider citations 'biblical content'.
ya, and i agree with you about all the other stuff. If chik-fil-a wants to be closed on Sunday, fine, i won't eat there and all.
but, if a citation isn't biblical content, um, then what is?
Content has meaning.
If I wrote "Tom Saywer: Chapter 27, Paragraph 2" to you it's pretty meaningnless unless you've committed the novel to memory in an indexed way.
If I said to you Exodus 16:12 (kind of appropriate for a burger bag) it has no meaning to you unless you are an Old Testament Scholar. There is no content there for the masses. The tiniest fraction of people would get it at all and a large proportion of that fraction keep kosher, so it's wasted.
Anyhow, the point is, I don't think you can equate citation with content. Otherwise, footnotes would be either really long or unnecessary.
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Content has meaning.
exactly.
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Anyhow, the point is, I don't think you can equate citation with content. Otherwise, footnotes would be either really long or unnecessary.
Citing Bible verses, though, is a pretty well-situated, contentful thing to do, even if the exact content of the verse refered to isn't immediately known to whoever is reading the citation. Just making a citation says a lot, e.g., I am a Christian, I'm not afraid to proselytize, etc.
Just like (and I'm jumping the Godwin gun here, sorry) if I wore a t-shirt that said, "Mein Kampf, p. 309" I couldn't honestly expect people to let me explain that, no, no, page 309 is where Adolf lovingly extolls the virtues of wildflowers and honeybees.
Not that I'm equating citing Bible verses with being a Nazi. Flip open to a gospel and cite that fucker away! The Bible is nice. I just thought the Mein Kampf thing would make for a good metaphor. I'm done now.
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But content is not the only thing that has meaning. As Marshall McLuhan so famously said, "The medium is the message."
We are able to glean some information about In-N-Out Burger by knowing the simple fact that they print citations to Bible verses on their packaging, whether or not we are familiar with the verse cited.
I like Krispy-Kremes. Of course, they've been around here forever so they aren't the big novelty that they seem to be in less civilized climes. They're good doughnuts and all, but I can't imagine standing in line for an extended period of time for them.
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My issue with Krispy Kremes is that they are very, very sugary. They start from nearly the maximum amount of sugariness I can withstand in a pastry and use that as their baseline from which to advance into new and sugary dimensions. The greasiness doesn't bother me too much on its own, but is not really bonus points on the sugariness.
The glazed crullers are decent, though. Much less thickly glazed than the donuts and fairly crispy, as I recall.
Edit: posting on an Internet message board about Krispy Kremes was enough to make my body begin a system of withdrawal to protect itself from being overloaded by sugar.
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But content is not the only thing that has meaning. As Marshall McLuhan so famously said, "The medium is the message."
Interesting. My opinion:
If I printed "Acts 29:1-5" on a t-shirt and wore it to your house, would that have meaning? What would it mean to you? Ponder that before you read on.
If the medium is the message, then the paper bag is the message, not the citation.
Acts 29:1-5 would appear to be no different than any other citation of a Bible verse with the notable exception that the book of Acts has only 28 chapters. So, unlike John 3:16, an extremely well known citation and probably slightly less well known verse, Acts 29:1-5 as a citation is meaningless but only so for someone who knows enough about the Bible to realize it. Otherwise as a name of a bible book wth some numbers afterward, it carries the exact same 'meaning' which is obviously not theological or scriptural since there is no scripture attached to it. At best, it's meaning (and most citations on their own presented to the general public) is contextual at best. And probably fairly weakly so.
Believers in God and the redemptive power of the death and resurrection of Christ, may tell you that if one of those citations leads one curious person to look further into their beliefs, or to talk about religion with a clergyman, or leads a person back to a life in faith that they left, then it's a good thing and certainly it doesn't hurt anyone/everyone else.
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However, when it comes to cynical little me, unlike the In-n-Out, which seems to be a family business gone big-ish, there are big businesses that try to inject the personal into the their product, just to insidiously convince you that they do care. The Wal-Mart greeter? Bah! The more spin there is, the more cynical I become to the whole process of consuming, the more I want to go to the corner store, eat at the family run restaurant, etc., etc., etc. I'm just so bloodly sick of being played.
The Wal-Mart greeter, I second that Bah! Let's call it what it really is, the check to see you're not stealing person. I've come dangerously close to being arrested twice at Walmart because I refuse to stop for them when they ask to see my receipt even when I set off the alarm. One time two "associates" hounded me all the way to the car, one was on the radio calling for security. I guess they could give me a hassle, but what are they gonna do really, arrest me for not showing my receipt while walking out of the store with fully paid for merchandise?
Fuck 'em, fuck 'em in the ass. Fuck In and Out too, there are still thousands of family owned burger joints where you can get a burger actually made by a member of the family. And they beat the ever lovin' shit out of In and Out. I can say that without reservation having never eaten an In and Out.
See (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN8042-E600.jpg) what I mean? (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN8043-E600.jpg)
Praise Jesus.
~Paul
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We can't order from Papa John's because they give money to anti-choice groups.
Dammit CortJstr.. you had to take my pizza didn't you?!
sigh.. all the more reason to cook my own I s'pose.
why do I suddenly feel like Pat?
Here's a better reason to not eat Papa John's, their pizza sucks.
~Paul
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I have never had In-N-Out, but I have to say that I find Krispy Kremes pretty unpalatable. I don't get all the waxing rhapsodic over them.
That's because those people are waxing rhapsodic about a memory. Once upon a time Krispy Kreme was all about the freshness. Any donut eaten mere seconds after it comes out of the fat is gonna taste good. There all basically the same, It's just fried dough for christ sake, but now days Krispy Kreme has become just like all the rest and it's likely the donuts you ate were made hours in advance and just sat there congealing waiting for you to purchase them.
Krispy Kreme is in deep financial trouble now. Sales have dropped because people have caught on to this fact.
~Paul
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Fatburger (http://www.fatburger.net/)
That's a good lookin' burger pictured on the website. I wonder if the one's made by the drones are as good as the one in the picture suggest it could be?
~Paul
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I have never eaten a Fatburger and out of principle I refuse to.
Mere months ago the big fatty moved into my hood (the first in Canada), mere feet away from my favorite family owned burger joint Vera's:
http://www.verasburgershack.com
Vera's is the best burger I have ever tasted. They can truly do no wrong. If you come to Vancouver, eat a damn Vera burger.
Now our city is pretty big and there are plenty of neighborhoods that you could put your enormous burger chain without obviously trying to snuff out the local competition but no. They did it. I just hope I'm not the only person who lives around here who won't stand for that shit.
Plenty of companies try to do this and I guess when it comes to bottom line it makes sense.
I might have been a happy patron of Fatburger, instead, I'm a grouchy bastard on the subject.
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But content is not the only thing that has meaning. As Marshall McLuhan so famously said, "The medium is the message."
Interesting. My opinion:
If I printed Acts 29:1-5 on a t-shirt and wore it to your house, would that have meaning? What would it mean to you? Ponder that before you read on.
It would. My point is that the shirt has meaning without regard to the text it refers to. What meaning could I gather if I saw you wearing such a shirt? I would likely infer that you were a Christian, that you were the type of person who wears his beliefs on his sleeve (so to speak) and that the verse in question has special significance to you. If I was enough of a scriptural scholar to recognize the oddity of the citation it would tell me even more about you. So while I have not learned anything about Acts 29:1-5, I have learned some important facts.
If the medium is the message, then the paper bag is the message, not the citation.
So what does the paper bag tell me?
It tells me that In-N-Out is not a publicly owned company, and is likely owned by a single person or small group of like-minded people.
It tells me that the owners are Christian.
It tells me that they believe it is appropriate for them to disseminate their religious beliefs in this manner.
It tells me that they believe that they believe their religion is not cheapened or offended by placing scriptural references on disposable food containers.
The small size and semi-hidden location of the citation indicates they may be reluctant to include a more obvious scriptural reference, which could indicate something about the relative importance of their religious and business values.
The form of the citation raises questions about the intended audience. Are these bible verses directed at believers who already own and read Bibles? As such are these scriptural citations a sort of marketing tool -- A secret sign saying, "Buy a Burger from a Christian!" Or are they directed an non-believers as an introduction to the faith? If the latter, how would such a person recognize the cryptic letters and numbers as referring to a Bible verse?
Please understand, I'm not trying to criticize the In-N-Out people in any way. The practice doesn't bother me in the least. I'm not talking about religion here -- this is about communication theory.
I'm just saying that you can learn a lot about the sender from how the message is sent without even looking at the "content".
Believers in God and the redemptive power of the death and resurrection of Christ, may tell you that if one of those citations leads one curious person to look further into their beliefs, or to talk about religion with a clergyman, or leads a person back to a life in faith that they left, then it's a good thing and certainly it doesn't hurt anyone/everyone else.
Can we then conclude, based upon In-N-Out's actions, that they (the owners) hold this belief? Isn't that meaning we can derive that is totally separate from the content of the cited Bible verse?
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The Krispy Kreme closest to me, on 72nd street, closed over the summer. Some days, I cry.
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Mmmm... Fresh (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN8864-E-1024.jpg)
~Paul
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However, when it comes to cynical little me, unlike the In-n-Out, which seems to be a family business gone big-ish, there are big businesses that try to inject the personal into the their product, just to insidiously convince you that they do care. The Wal-Mart greeter? Bah! The more spin there is, the more cynical I become to the whole process of consuming, the more I want to go to the corner store, eat at the family run restaurant, etc., etc., etc. I'm just so bloodly sick of being played.
The Wal-Mart greeter, I second that Bah! Let's call it what it really is, the check to see you're not stealing person. I've come dangerously close to being arrested twice at Walmart because I refuse to stop for them when they ask to see my receipt even when I set off the alarm. One time two "associates" hounded me all the way to the car, one was on the radio calling for security. I guess they could give me a hassle, but what are they gonna do really, arrest me for not showing my receipt while walking out of the store with fully paid for merchandise?
Fuck 'em, fuck 'em in the ass. Fuck In and Out too, there are still thousands of family owned burger joints where you can get a burger actually made by a member of the family. And they beat the ever lovin' shit out of In and Out. I can say that without reservation having never eaten an In and Out.
See (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN8042-E600.jpg) what I mean? (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN8043-E600.jpg)
Praise Jesus.
~Paul
Ah, see I have a long, deep understanding of the depths of the Wal-Mart greeter. When the first ever Wal-Mart came to Winnipeg, my mother was hired as a greeter. This was a time when no one in my corner of the world knew what a greeter was - it was a little hard to explain to people. Even hard to explain to many is that my mother, who is - and always has been - mentally ill, could not handle the job of being a greeter. Later I worked at Wal-Mart for three years and watched first hand as the greeters singled out teenagers and people who looked a little unusual for the undercover store cops to follow around, while the actual shoplifters were basically ignored.
I remember a really low point a couple years ago where my SO and I both found ourselves unemployed at the same time, before Christmas I think, and we went to apply at a Home Depot job fair for holiday help, as we were very desperate. As we entered the store, I commented on how, like at Wal-Mart, the greeters at the Home Depot had clearly been trained to not greet or otherwise acknowledge young people (i.e. us a few years ago in our early 20's, who looked like we were in our late teens) - we were ungreeted, and although we were looked at by the greeter, there was no smile or sign that we were infact welcome to enter. We went into the job fair, we never set foot beyound the little area that had been set up for the application and interview process - didn't enter the retail space at any time. After an initial application and screening interview, were both asked to stay for real interviews, they said it would be about 15 minutes and that we had to stay in the little waiting area, not wander the store, we obliged and actually waited about 2 1/2 hours sitting in the little area, and were finally called in by different interviewers at the same time. We both had extremely positive interviews. I was told that I would be hired as a seasonal temp base on my several years of experience with Wal-mart and my high level of job interview skills. I was fine with that, and happy to accept the offer. I was told I would be called for training. My SO can drive a Fork Lift, so the shipping and recieving department manager told him that he too would definitly be hired as a temp, and would be called for training. My SO was very enthusiastic about this because it's the exact area of work he wanted to get into - they even told him they could get him certified as a forklift operator, which he was very happy about.
As we walked out of the interview area toward the exit, both excited that we were being offered jobs - that our terrifying stint of unemployment had reached an end - I notices a middle aged woman hanging near the door who looked very nervous. I remember wondering why her eyes were darting around, kind of thinking something was wrong, but not having any time to really analyse what it was. We passed through the alarm panel thing-y's in silence. The alarm sounded from behind us as she then darted infront of us, running out the door full tilt. We both realized we were witnessing a shoplifter, and as we heard footfall behind us, we imagined that it was security or one of those undercover shoppers, going to make chase after her. But no. it was three staff people insisting that we stop. I remember saying something like: "that woman just set off the alarm and now she's running across the parking lot!" at about the same time as we were being asked about the content of our pockets, if we had purchased anything, etc. My SO said of the woman who dashed and was now in a car and driving away -something like "she's getting away." Which was also ignored, and the questions about what was in our pockets, if we had purchased anything were being repeated. I explained that we hadn't been in the store itseld but had just been interviewed for jobs. We passed through the metal detectors again, and as with the first time we passed through, we did not set off the alarm. I said something like - "I told you, it was that woman who ran out ahead of us!" to which one of the employees said "Yeah, right." and another rolled here eyes.
Worse than the staff's refusal to listen to the fact we had just seen a woman bolt from the store and set off the metal detectors, was what came next. We were never called for the jobs we were offered. I can only assume that the staff that had so rudely singled us out and ignored the far more obviouse real thief running like a bat out of hell for her car, also then told the people who had interviewed us that we had "gotten away with shoplifting," and that they in turn, had therefore not hired us. For me, it didn't matter since I knew I would have only worked at a place like that for a couple of weeks until I found something better, but for the SO it was more of a disapointment. He was so excited about the idea of working in a big warehouse and using a forklift again.
Needless to say, we never shop at Home Depot anymore.
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If my time with Peacefire has taught me nothing else it's that teenagers, or people who look like teenagers, have no rights and are always wrong.
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If my time with Peacefire has taught me nothing else it's that teenagers, or people who look like teenagers, have no rights and are always wrong.
Man, people stay dumb as they get older too. A man is just a boy with tenure.
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Having grown up in the south, back when there were relatively few Krispy Kremes, I can say that they're my doughnut benchmark. I far prefer their yeast batter to Dunkin' Donuts' cake batter, and the sugar content, well, just isn't a mark against them in my book.
It was always a production to pile the family in the car and drive all the way to the (somewhat seedy) part of town to get the doughnuts, and so they came to be a rare treat. I'm guessing that's why I never "grew out" of liking them, even though I rarely bother to buy any doughnuts any more.
But thinking about that and other chain food that I really have a hankering for, it's not that the actual food is that much better on some absolute scale. It's unique and out of the ordinary.
As a West Coast transplant, I don't really get the In-n-Out Burger "thing," but they do have a tasty product. I agree that they aren't the best burgers ever, but I prefer them to any other large chain's fare.* I would take Milo's in a head to head fast food burger fight. Not that any of you know Milo's. Half the appeal of a Milo's burger is in the fries and sauce anyway. And the sweet tea. Mmmmm. Milo's.
Sorry, I drifted off, there. Sometimes it feels like I miss the food from home more than, er, home. Maybe that's what makes people evangelize Krispy Kreme, or whatever local-chain-made-good. Places like this feel like a secret, one which you can let your friends in on, and that's always a good feeling. It's one of the few aspects of reigonal identity left. I know that I can take someone from almost anywhere outside of Alabama to a Milo's, or a Guthrie's, and they won't have had something like it before.
Krispy Kreme used to be that way. Chick-Fil-A was like that, too. They might not be the best examples of their product, but they taste different, and you've either had one or you haven't.
Okay, I'm up way too late (early) and waxing way too philosophical about food. I'm apparently a bit homesick for some of it. :)
*I, personally, make my favorite burgers ever, which I guess makes sense. But it does kill my appetite for fast-food burgers.
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Man, now I am jonesing for Runza.
This is kind of sad.
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Pete Yorn is but a footnote in pop music history.
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I totally accept that my primary reason for wanting an In-N-Out Burger is the same reason why I enjoy going to Steak N Shake so much - because the closest of the latter is a four-hour car ride away (a drive I have made, for that sole purpose), and the closest of the former is an eight-hour plane trip away. When Sonic was a 45-minute drive away, I jonesed for it weekly. Now that I can walk to one, I have it two, maybe three times a year.
I am a big fan of burgers, and would gladly try some of the local family burger joints, if I were in fact aware of any here.
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Wait, wait. Which one are you? Kumar? I'd have thought you were Harold, but the internet makes me bad at guessing.
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If I printed "Acts 29:1-5" on a t-shirt and wore it to your house, would that have meaning? What would it mean to you? Ponder that before you read on.
It would. My point is that the shirt has meaning without regard to the text it refers to. What meaning could I gather if I saw you wearing such a shirt? I would likely infer that you were a Christian, that you were the type of person who wears his beliefs on his sleeve (so to speak) and that the verse in question has special significance to you. If I was enough of a scriptural scholar to recognize the oddity of the citation it would tell me even more about you. So while I have not learned anything about Acts 29:1-5, I have learned some important facts.
Apparently, you have learned two opposite 'facts' about me at the same time: First, that I am a Christian sporting a citation of my favorite Bible verse, and, simultaneously, that I am a sarcastic person with an intentionally fictional verse citation on my shirt.
Without knowing the Bible well, which is it? Either both messages exist truly, simultaneously and in opposition to the other, or there is no message. It can't be both and I think it pretty much has to be the latter.
If the medium is the message, then the paper bag is the message, not the citation.
So what does the paper bag tell me?
(...Lots of stuff...)
The form of the citation raises questions about the intended audience. Are these bible verses directed at believers who already own and read Bibles? As such are these scriptural citations a sort of marketing tool -- A secret sign saying, "Buy a Burger from a Christian!" Or are they directed an non-believers as an introduction to the faith? If the latter, how would such a person recognize the cryptic letters and numbers as referring to a Bible verse?
Please understand, I'm not trying to criticize the In-N-Out people in any way. The practice doesn't bother me in the least. I'm not talking about religion here -- this is about communication theory.
I'm just saying that you can learn a lot about the sender from how the message is sent without even looking at the "content".
I took the statement to mean that the medium independent of the content was the message.
That leaves, basically, just a plain old burger bag which would not carry much significance in terms of telling us about the family or anything beyond the fact that they want to give us a wood-fiber based disposable device in which to carry our burgers.
I'm clearly misinterpreting Mcluhan's quote, though, so that point I'll concede to agreement given your obvious better knowlege of communication theory.
Believers in God and the redemptive power of the death and resurrection of Christ, may tell you that if one of those citations leads one curious person to look further into their beliefs, or to talk about religion with a clergyman, or leads a person back to a life in faith that they left, then it's a good thing and certainly it doesn't hurt anyone/everyone else.
Can we then conclude, based upon In-N-Out's actions, that they (the owners) hold this belief? Isn't that meaning we can derive that is totally separate from the content of the cited Bible verse?
I don't think so. There are plenty of verses in the Bible that wouldn't necessarily have this effect. What if the citation corresponded to "don't kill people' or 'don't steal stuff'? These correspond pretty directly to secular law and what we all know about maintaining social order. Personally, I would conclude that they are evangelizing with the bags but the citations alone, especially in the absence of the accompanying verses, do not necessarily support deriving a conclusion about their intent.
Damn I love thse discussions.
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Damn I love thse discussions.
Is there any other message board on the internet that can take a rather lowbrow subject like a guy scarffing 20 burgers and turn it into a discussion that at some point references Marshall McLuan?
It should be noted, of course, that it's equally possible for this crowd to start off a discussion about, say, complicated math or something and have it devolve into how much of something Gina could fit into her pu$$y.
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Marshal McLuan once held a conference for the entire staff of the In-And-Out where he randomly quoted biblical citations.
The medium?
A large public gathering in a 350 seat auditorium.
The location?
Gina's pu$$y.
Thank you. I'll be here all week.
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Damn I love thse discussions.
It should be noted, of course, that it's equally possible for this crowd to start off a discussion about, say, complicated math or something and have it devolve into how much of something Gina could fit into her pu$$y.
Kidding aside, the way that we describe the shape and volume warping properties of Gina's pu$$y, it can best be described as a Riemann Curvature Tensor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curvature_tensor)
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Either both messages exist truly, simultaneously and in opposition to the other, or there is no message. It can't be both and I think it pretty much has to be the latter.
yes it can be both. any communication based upon symbols has a level of subjectivity.
even an "absolute" "empirical" symbol based system like math has subjective meaning, usually based on igorance. such as to someone who understands the language of calculus, a calculus equation would have an absolute meaning, but to someone who does not understand the language of calculus, that same equation could mean "warning, boringness!" or "you stupid fuck*ng guy, you should have woke up earlier during college" or any number of thing.
in the case of something such as a citation of content, especially somehting like the "bible" of which not only multiple productions exist, but multiple translations and NUMEROUS interpretations of those various bits of langauge exist COMPOUNDED with incredibly vast differences of knowledge of those various bits of language,
i can not see how all the conditions you described COULD NOT exist simultaneously.
to whit and for example (hypothetical)
you know the bible,
he knows of the bible,
she knows not of the bible.
you see a citation and know the verse and therefor the information it refers to.
he knows that the citation is a reference to the bible.
she sees gibberish on a fast food cup.
add to those three reactions a near infinite number of subjective non-rational responses, and the meaning conveyed, while "real" or "perceived", becomes staggeringly large for a simple coke to go.
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Either both messages exist truly, simultaneously and in opposition to the other, or there is no message. It can't be both and I think it pretty much has to be the latter.
yes it can be both. any communication based upon symbols has a level of subjectivity.
(...snip...)
to whit and for example (hypothetical)
you know the bible,
he knows of the bible,
she knows not of the bible.
you see a citation and know the verse and therefor the information it refers to.
he knows that the citation is a reference to the bible.
she sees gibberish on a fast food cup.
add to those three reactions a near infinite number of subjective non-rational responses, and the meaning conveyed, while "real" or "perceived", becomes staggeringly large for a simple coke to go.
And this is before getting into additional layers of obscurity. For example, almost anyone raised in or around the Christian-normative American paradigm is going to recognize "John 3:16" and have some idea of its meaning; give many of the same people a citation from Thessalonians, and they might recognize it's an epistle at best. (Some might not even be able to name the right Testament. As a kid, I distinctly recall assuming that any book that had a name that was long and confusing was Old Testament.) So, yes, there is a further layer of content embedded in whether you choose commonplace biblical citations people are likely to recognize (John 3:16 et al.), obscure ones people will probably look at and say "hey, that's from the Bible, right?" (Thessalonians &c.), and total gibberish (Acts 29 and so on).
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The location?
Gina's pu$$y.
Thank you. I'll be here all week.
Yeah, it's pretty tough to find your way out of that thing. you'll be lucky if it only takes you a week.
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Here's all I'm saying:
1. Anything communicated to us has both form (the medium of communication) and content (what's being said.)
2. We can derive a great deal of meaning from the form of the communication. Sometimes more than from the content.
Here's another f'rinstance: One commercial airs at 3 a.m. Sunday morning on the local WB affiliate. The other airs during the first timeout of the Super Bowl. Given just those facts, are you willing to hazard any guess about the content of the commercials or the identity of the sponsors? I am.
Here's another example. Tomorrow you are delivered the following:
A luridly printed flier on flimsy paper advertising used cars.
An obvious mass mailing for a credit card company.
An envelope with a preprinted return address and your address inkjet printed on a clear label.
A business envelope from a local firm and your address typed on the front.
A small envelope made of expensive paper with a handwritten address.
A Fed-Ex envelope with a corporate Sender and your name and address hand-written.
Which do you open first? Which do you throw away without opening? Why, given that you know nothing about the content of each envelope? Aren't you making decisions solely based upon the form of the communication rather than it's content?
Dawg, in response to your post, I would say the fact that I might get a mistaken or entirely erroneous impression from your T-Shirt doesn't change the fact that I have received information from it. It might be misleading information, or I may draw the wrong conclusions, but I still was able to make an educated guess about you based on your T-Shirt. This is especially relevant in light of your example, which is intentionally misleading.
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And this is before getting into additional layers of obscurity. For example, almost anyone raised in or around the Christian-normative American paradigm is going to recognize "John 3:16" and have some idea of its meaning;
"John 3:16"? Who's John? Don't you mean Austin 3:16?
I wonder if the Rainbow Man is still in jail
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I don't think so. There are plenty of verses in the Bible that wouldn't necessarily have this effect. What if the citation corresponded to "don't kill people' or 'don't steal stuff'? These correspond pretty directly to secular law and what we all know about maintaining social order. Personally, I would conclude that they are evangelizing with the bags but the citations alone, especially in the absence of the accompanying verses, do not necessarily support deriving a conclusion about their intent.
I think most people would conclude that the bags are tools of evangelization. The test is this: if, later, we all found out that the Bible verse they referenced actually read "Verily I say unto thee, No Fat Chicks" or something, it would be funny precisely BECAUSE Bible citations in this context are taken as overt expressions of faith and desire to convert. Fake citations like "Austin 3:16" are funny because they play on our expectation that citations of that form are used by Christians trying to proselytize in public places.
No one looks at "Austin 3:16" and thinks, "Damn, if only I could find this Austin book and look up verse 16 in chapter 3 ... then I would know what that guy with the sign is trying to communicate to me. Damn."
In other words, there is a divorce here between the sign and the signified. A Bible citation on a t-shirt or paper bag or billboard or whatever, regardless of what the citation actually references, is functionally equivalent to writing "Jesus Saves" because, for better or worse, they've been used that way in the past and we can expect people to understand them that way in the future.
(Note that this only applies in certain contexts, e.g. the above-mentioned t-shirts, paper bags, billboards, sporting events, etc. Obviously if you were in a seminary or something and the teacher wrote Acts 14:12 on the board he would probably be trying to communicating something other than "I'm a Christian and I wouldn't mind converting you.")
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I think every argument about the cultural significance of visible religious references should be held simultaneously and colocationally with a conversation about a cooter with mythical properties and powers. This could only improve the tone of public discourse in America today.
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I think every argument about the cultural significance of visible religious references should be held simultaneously and colocationally with a conversation about a cooter with mythical properties and powers. This could only improve the tone of public discourse in America today.
So... commentary on the Peter Jackson LotR films, maybe?
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I think every argument about the cultural significance of visible religious references should be held simultaneously and colocationally with a conversation about a cooter with mythical properties and powers. This could only improve the tone of public discourse in America today.
So... commentary on the Peter Jackson LotR films, maybe?
Three cooters for the elf-kings under the sky...
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I wonder if the Rainbow Man is still in jail
Yes (http://home.pacifier.com/~dkossy/rainbow.html)
~Paul