The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Achewood => Achewood => Topic started by: Golfhaus on February 22, 2006, 12:44:32 pm
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I'd like to talk, if I may, for a second about the ramifications of the GOF story arc - specifically, what Onstad is doing to Ray as a character. I'm pondering how to address Achewood in a scholarly-type paper thing, and I have this sort of thing on the brain.
I wonder if I'm the only one a little... I don't know... concerned about what's going on with Son of Rodney. Ray in the beginning was one of the Dirtiest Dudes In Town, the one who'd mix vodka up for Philippe. A bit crass, but harmless. It wasn't until Onstad started to develop the backstory of the characters that Ray took on the primary traits of his character: dumb luck, ego (as opposed to Pat's hubris and eternally in contrast with Beef's self-deprecation), and a basically happy-go-lucky attitude in life. He owns forty-foot long #####, ate half a piece of paper on accident, and wears a crown whenever he gets laid. Nowhere has violence factored into it. Ray is not a violent man. Ray. Is. Not. A. Violent. Man.{1}
But now, the GOF. Sure, he's been inspired by the revelation that Rodney Stubbs was his dad. There appears to be some kind of need to connect with his dad on that level. Is Ray's life that empty that he seeks to change himself into the cold-hearted killer his dad was? Is Ray READY for this? The GOF does not last forever. It lasts for three days. If there's not some kind of shake down afterwards, some moment of "What The Hell Just Happened To Me?," it will be a serious weakness in the way this strip is put together. In short, I'll be hell of insulted as a reader if the day after Onstad tacks the "Fin." in the lower right corner, the strip shows Ray sitting at the pool with a Ketel One, laughing at how drunk Lyle is or how fat Todd got. There needs to be some kind of decompression period there.
{1} One might point out Ray's demolition of the Honda when he discovered LN's actions, but that is a different thing - he's dismantling a car. He was not violent toward LN himself - in fact, LN was only grounded for "a few hours."
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Great minds think alike apparently. (http://touamb.com/index.php/topic,2576.msg57027.html#msg57027)
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I'm hoping real hard that after all is said and done, however it goes down in the end, there will be some kind of profound, I don't know, redemption for Ray's actions. Some sequence of events that allows him to go right back to his old bumbling, lovable self. I trust (and hope) that Onstad can pull this off.
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I'm not saying that I'll get pissed off if we ever see the old Ray again (although Q has pointed out that how this could even be possible is an issue), but really, it can't be something that happens quick.
Perhaps what I'd really like to see is for him to go off somewhere to come to grips with it... he could update via his blog, as Mr. Bear did during his trip to Russia, and then maybe for a few weeks we could see some of those other characters that Onstad used to have.
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Oh I'd love to see the old Ray. I prefer him actually. This is a nice change of pace, but really I am going to miss him if we cannot find a meaningful way to transition him back to the point where he's smelling lawnmowers in the garage.
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Perhaps what I'd really like to see is for him to go off somewhere to come to grips with it... he could update via his blog, as Mr. Bear did during his trip to Russia, and then maybe for a few weeks we could see some of those other characters that Onstad used to have.
I heartily agree. I would love to see a storyline centered on Téodor and Cornelius, for instance.
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I miss Mr. Bear terribly.
Swinging the topic back online though... how are characters like Cornelius and Philippe expected to interact with a man who cold ripped the face off a man? You expect Lyle to have gotten a bit rough with folks from time to time, and look at how the two of them get along. Does this mean the stone cold end of Mr. Bear going to Ray's parties? Do his parties lose their sophistication as Ray starts hanging with a tougher crowd? Does Ray scare the shit out of Philippe?
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Good thread, good thread. As someone interested in the nuts and bolts of the writing process, this whole approach to Ray as a character was running in the back of my mind for a while now.
I'm hoping real hard that after all is said and done, however it goes down in the end, there will be some kind of profound, I don't know, redemption for Ray's actions. Some sequence of events that allows him to go right back to his old bumbling, lovable self. I trust (and hope) that Onstad can pull this off.
Good thing with Onstad is that he's likely to pull something outrageous out of the blue that could provide a slick and seamless leap back to the Ray We Used To Know, without necessarily having to make much sense (the best Achewood strips to me were always the ones that played - toyed - with my preconceptions of how a traditional setup should work). It's risky but he has proven more than once that he can do it - and I would feel it to be more in the Achewood spirit if there was a slight "fuck you" to traditional post-denouement tactics.
(And since I'm as guilty as anyone of rabid speculation over the fates of these talking cats and stuffed animals, and remembering King Cochacho's medallion's mood-altering properties, I would be perfectly satisfied with having... Ray... losing his (Rodney's) hat to a sudden gust of wind... in the middle of the final fight with some mindless bonesucking machine... and suddendly looking all dude-y again, clueless as ever, having no idea even of how he got there.)
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I think the thing to consider here is the nature of cats...many people think of them as cute, lovable little furballs, but in reality they are stone cold killing machines. They are viscious, dangerous little murderers (or--in the case of big cats, like Siegfried and Roy's tigers--gigantic engines of terror). But none of that goes contrary to their nature. They are both affectionate and deadly. Even in the case of an anthropomorphized cat such as Ray, both aspects of his inherent felineness would be in evidence, and would be eminently compatible.
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"Mmmm...", we say.
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Emergent C, that was a brilliant point. A point worthy of a tiny can, 'twas.
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Good point on the cat thing, Emergent C. I know this arc has really reminded me that Ray is a cat, with all that implies, including the violence and instinctive hunting-focused brutality.
I'm sort of ambivalent about this topic. On one hand, I would like to see Old Ray return; he is/was a good character with an important role in the strip's character dynamics, and it would feel strange to have Ray undergo such a sea change. (Might it be matched by a similar change in Beef, too? If so, Achewood has a large chance of changing its feel entirely. Or maybe becoming a strip about the alive stuffed animals again.) On the other hand, if Onstad pulls another "sudden tone change at the end of a character arc, with the status quo reset" thing, it'll cheapen this whole enterprise. I know that Ray is one of the most change-resistant characters in the strip, but even he can't bounce back from this, and I'd rather see Onstad shift the tone of the strip than abandon what is probably his strongest arc to date.
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Good thread, good thread. As someone interested in the nuts and bolts of the writing process, this whole approach to Ray as a character was running in the back of my mind for a while now.
Deja, my working title for the aforementioned paper is "Momentary Diversions: Establishing the Canon in Onstad's Achewood" and will attempt to address the issue of the changing dynamic in the early strips and how it affects later arcs (the stuffed animals hiding in Onstad's house vs. the Underground vs. Ray hiring Bono's obviously feline butler).
I suppose the issue that Q and I have is that Onstad may have painted himself into a corner here: either ruin the Ray character or take one more shot at the ludicrous that ruins the believability of the strip (as much as you can believe a strip about cartoon cats). You and Tangle have a more optimistic approach, that he will be able to creatively work Ray back to where he was. I share that hope... what I fear (and I believe Q shares it) is that Onstad will do it in a flippant matter, so that he can go back to the silly Ray/Beef strips that he feels the most comfortable working with.
Emergent's reflection on feline nature is important to consider, given that the characters almost never act like cats. They walk like people, talk like people, have sex in the missionary position like people. In the more recent strips, there have only been two times when they started to act like cats - when Ray and Beef tried to go primal by wearing manes, and the GOF. Is the GOF a chance for anthropomorphic cats to realize the full potential of their baser instincts?
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All of you quit your wanking. Here's your decompression right here. (http://achewood.com/?date=12012003) Ray takes a shower and Teodor coaches him on the next act. End of story.
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Actually, "Heh. Whatever happened with that, anyway" is a very nice example of how Achewood can graciously disregard the aforementioned traditional post-denouement etcoeteras. It stands to be seen if that's the route we'll be taking.
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(cross-posted from the 2/22/06 strip topic)
I'm gonna chalk this all up to the Fight, and leave it at that. Think about it, Ray became an international superstar, and he didn't change. He became the biggest part of a billionaire, and he didn't change. I think he could win the GOF and still be Ray. Once the testosterone and the ghost of his father dissipate, he'll be his old self again.
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Actually, "Heh. Whatever happened with that, anyway" is a very nice example of how Achewood can graciously disregard ...
I'm gonna chalk this all up to the Fight, and leave it at that. Think about it, Ray became an international superstar, and he didn't change. He became the biggest part of a billionaire, and he didn't change. I think he could win the GOF and still be Ray. Once the testosterone and the ghost of his father dissipate, he'll be his old self again.
Exactly. 2 points:
1. You can analyze lots about Ray's character, etc, but this comic strip has always changed as the creator's whim/muse/mood changes. So reading deeper things may be an interesting exercise for someone looking for a paper topic, but is unlikely to arrive at the truth.
2. If one insists upon a consistent storyline/personality for Ray, then I say that an abrupt shift (suggested by the quote above) is just perfect. This is a guy who has been TO HELL AND BACK, and it didn't much disturb him. I don't think the GOF and ripping a guy's face off will bother him one bit. Ray is not about to become a murderous psycho. He needed to win the GOF to maintain the family legacy, man. And to prove what a bad-ass he his. Then he can go back to acting like a big pussy (no pun intended) most of the time, but knowing that deep down he is the baddest cat of all.
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There's a lot of ways out of this. Probably more than have even been brought up here.
I agree with Emergent C's point, and I think seeing Ray's hiss after taking down Perfect Ron was Onstad's way of letting us know that Ray is in full on bad ass feline mode. He's been obsessed with the fight since he found out his father won it, and I imagine once it's over (with a very final conclusion, I imagine), he will regress to usual Ray. For what it's worth it seemed Rodney himself was able to get away from his deadly GOF persona enough to land Mrs. Smuckles (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01252006), not a biker chick by any means.
I've read testimonies by guys like Watterson who say that sometimes a good series would sometimes take on a life of it's own, but it seems pretty clear that Onstad has a pretty good idea of where he's going with this (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=02062006).
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I would just like to point out two things:
I'm gonna chalk this all up to the Fight, and leave it at that. Think about it, Ray became an international superstar, and he didn't change. He became the biggest part of a billionaire, and he didn't change. I think he could win the GOF and still be Ray. Once the testosterone and the ghost of his father dissipate, he'll be his old self again.
Becoming an international superstar and obtaining hundreds of millions of dollars are... good things. Pleasant things to have happen to oneself (basically, at least). Landing in what is basically an internment camp and being forced to beat the hell out of people (to the point of literally ripping them apart) isn't so peachy keen. Adjusting would be harder.
2. If one insists upon a consistent storyline/personality for Ray, then I say that an abrupt shift (suggested by the quote above) is just perfect. This is a guy who has been TO HELL AND BACK, and it didn't much disturb him.
That's a little... cheap, I guess. Achewood Hell is not like any other Hell we've imagined. Put him in a more traditional Hell setting, and see if he manages as well.
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i personally agree with several of the aforementioned comments. i'm sure this is going somewhere viable and you Will see the old ray again.
i also would like to see more with teodor; after all, if you recall, ray and beef were not central characters for a long time. at first it was all teodor, mr bear, lyle and phillippe. in fact, i wouldn't be suprised if we saw a bit of the *****s after this storyline. we haven't seen them in earnest since... oh geez, was it when ray accidentally shot his uncle and it turned out to be liebot? was it that long ago? they might be due.
ha, actually i wouldn't be that suprised if it turned out that some of the minions ray and beef have in the fight turn out to be a ***** or two in disguise.
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The last time we saw a bot was here (http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=10192005).
However, the last time we saw a bot "in earnest" was at the Toilet Party (http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=02042005) and after via the BurgerKing chatroom antics; so about a year after the whole Uncle Culpepper thing.
This is still unacceptable as a time frame.
In conclusion, More Lyle.
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you know, i just thought of something.
what if part of it is the hat? isn't that the hat rodney wore? it wouldn't be so crazy, after all, we have had talking shoes. maybe the hat helps give ray part of his badassness, and then once he takes it off....?
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For what it's worth it seemed Rodney himself was able to get away from his deadly GOF persona enough to land Mrs. Smuckles (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01252006), not a biker chick by any means.
This is a good point. Ray's dad clearly had two personae: Ramses Luther Smuckles, Ray's genteel father, and Rodney Leonard Stubbs, the Edison of handing a guy his ass. Maybe Ray can do the same? I can see some amusement value coming from Ray's attempt to balance his Smucklesness with the Stubbs inside.
(That didn't exactly come out right, but, y'know.)
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Assuming Ramses was ever genteel. What if Ray's mom had a fling with Rodney Leonard Stubbs, Certified Bad Ass, and made up Ramses Luther Smuckles as a cover story in order to remain an upstanding member of society.
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I like the funny cartoon with the talking cats and the alive stuffed animals.
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I like the funny cartoon with the talking cats and the alive stuffed animals.
My cat's breath smells like catfood.
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My cat's breath smells like catfood.
This tastes like burning.
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I bent my Wookie.
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Did you know that cats have barbed penes?
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Did you know that cats have barbed penes?
That sounds very painful for the lady cats. Everyone knows what barbed wire does. And in giraffeing, barbed hooks make damn well sure the giraffe is stuck on that damn hook.
What the hell?
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That's on account of they eat giraffe placentas.
Confidential to Judy: Shut the fuck up, Donny. You're out of your element.
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At least they don't eat babies.
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Yes I did give you a tiny can for that.
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Man, you know who eats a lot of babies? The COCKRUB WARRIORS OF MARS.
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There's something I don't think has been addressed fully which I feel is really important, so here goes.
This is Ray's first real test, guys. He's stumbled through life, at least over the course of the script, with few real troubles. Sure, bizarre things happen to him, but he just moves with them, and often benefits from them. The devil just happened to call him with that piano. He just happened to stumble across that daguerrotype, with no knowledge of what it was. Sometimes he's had hard times - he has been to hell - but it's always been fairly easy for him to navigate back to normalcy. I mean, that may have been the first time he was just cold beaten in the face.
But now it's been revealed to him that he's Son of Rodney, next incarnation of the legendary fighter. What in the goddamn hell does a feline even do with that? Well, I think Ray senses an obligation to live up to his heritage, to finally put himself in a real life-or-death situation. And oh man, has he ever.
And, well, being in an environment like that with no preparation, with a legacy that massive behind you, after a life lead like Ray's, forced to lead (prepared, possibly really brutal) men in the guise of someone you really aren't?
Strange things will happen to a dude, is all I'm sayin'.
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It's surprising how much better this thread is when it's off topic.
Ramifications of the GOF? Onstad sells a few shirts, Jough sells a few shirts, and we get free comics every day.
Efforts to read into this comic damage to the space-time continuum as a result of anything Ray does is just silly.
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OK, everyone with <100 posts please read the archives!
Thanks!
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What about when Ray and Beef must fight? Even if they survive the first 2,998 competitors as partners, only one man can win. And when Ray kills Beef (inevitably) will it change their relationship? Will Beef stay dead? Will he forgive Ray?
And what. If. Beef. Kills. Ray?
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What about when Ray and Beef must fight? Even if they survive the first 2,998 competitors as partners, only one man can win. And when Ray kills Beef (inevitably) will it change their relationship? Will Beef stay dead? Will he forgive Ray?
And what. If. Beef. Kills. Ray?
The only think I can think of to say is ooooooooh shiiiiiiiiit
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I'd like to talk, if I may, for a second about the ramifications of the GOF story arc - specifically, what Onstad is doing to Ray as a character. I'm pondering how to address Achewood in a scholarly-type paper thing, and I have this sort of thing on the brain.
I wonder if I'm the only one a little... I don't know... concerned about what's going on with Son of Rodney. Ray in the beginning was one of the Dirtiest Dudes In Town, the one who'd mix vodka up for Philippe. A bit crass, but harmless. It wasn't until Onstad started to develop the backstory of the characters that Ray took on the primary traits of his character: dumb luck, ego (as opposed to Pat's hubris and eternally in contrast with Beef's self-deprecation), and a basically happy-go-lucky attitude in life. He owns forty-foot long ******, ate half a piece of paper on accident, and wears a crown whenever he gets laid. Nowhere has violence factored into it. Ray is not a violent man. Ray. Is. Not. A. Violent. Man.{1}
But now, the GOF. Sure, he's been inspired by the revelation that Rodney Stubbs was his dad. There appears to be some kind of need to connect with his dad on that level. Is Ray's life that empty that he seeks to change himself into the cold-hearted killer his dad was? Is Ray READY for this? The GOF does not last forever. It lasts for three days. If there's not some kind of shake down afterwards, some moment of "What The Hell Just Happened To Me?," it will be a serious weakness in the way this strip is put together. In short, I'll be hell of insulted as a reader if the day after Onstad tacks the "Fin." in the lower right corner, the strip shows Ray sitting at the pool with a Ketel One, laughing at how drunk Lyle is or how fat Todd got. There needs to be some kind of decompression period there.
{1} One might point out Ray's demolition of the Honda when he discovered LN's actions, but that is a different thing - he's dismantling a car. He was not violent toward LN himself - in fact, LN was only grounded for "a few hours."
I feel there's a certain REASON Ray has been acting like this......Someone else I know mentioned it, and I think it could have some weight to it. The HAT is doing this to Ray. Before he put on that hat he was laid-back, lazy, scared at how Beef ran over people Ray, but as soon as he put it on he's been a freaking killing machine! We know what the medallion does, so who's to not say that hat has an effect on it's wearer too?
Oh, and I thik Ray should die at the end of this arc, and be gone for like, at least 6 months. That'd rule.
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Clothing affecting Ray's behavior. Preposterous. You act as if there's some sort of precedent for this...
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Clothing affecting Ray's behavior. Preposterous. You act as if there's some sort of precedent for this...
are you perhaps referring to such as shoes
A BLOO BLA BLOO BLOO
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Oh, and I thik Ray should die at the end of this arc, and be gone for like, at least 6 months. That'd rule.
I, too, could do without Ray for a little while.
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I feel there's a certain REASON Ray has been acting like this......Someone else I know mentioned it, and I think it could have some weight to it. The HAT is doing this to Ray. Before he put on that hat he was laid-back, lazy, scared at how Beef ran over people Ray, but as soon as he put it on he's been a freaking killing machine! We know what the medallion does, so who's to not say that hat has an effect on it's wearer too?
A certain reason ... like Ray being told he's about to contract diabetes?
The psychic power of the Fighting Straw Hat would be much more in character, but raises the question how Ray obtained that particular hat ... even if the 1973 model was still in existence Mrs Smuckles would never give to him.
If you really want a much-too-serious, psychological angle on the strip, consider: why do so many characters have absent or dead fathers.
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If you really want a much-too-serious, psychological angle on the strip, consider: why do so many characters have absent or dead fathers.
*Puts on a blues hat*
Woah you know Stad never had a daddy
Never done him nooo good.
I said now Stad never had a daddy
Never done him noo good.
If that boy ever done find him
Gonna take the payback that he should.
None of that is true I'm sure.
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shut up mr q
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shut up mr q
Now Noah, no one likes a crap dude. You know it, I know it, TOUAMB knows it.
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shut up mr q
Why so hostile noah?
Is it because you are afraid of your attraction to me?
It is okay to feel the way you do, really, even if you will never know the tormenting passion that is my love because I don't play that game.
I am sorry this has made you angry Noah, it is like a classic novel where the hero is all tortured and retarded.
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"Tortured and retarded"
Umm... Flowers for Algernon?
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"Tortured and retarded"
Umm... Flowers for Algernon?
I was thinking of Tom Jones by Henry James, but that works too. Thank you sir.
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If you really want a much-too-serious, psychological angle on the strip, consider: why do so many characters have absent or dead fathers.
Because it works for Disney? The only Disney heroines I can think of off the of my head with fathers are Mulan and Ariel. In Ariels case, no mother. (and she was majorly bratty, defiant and opnely disobedient.)
Mulan had two actual parents. I'm not sure that ever happened before.Even in Toy Story there was no dad.
This line of reasoning doesn't apply to non-animated Disney movies.
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There's dads in the non-animated ones, but they're ineffective doofuses most of the time.
Mufasa was a good dad in The Lion King, but then he died.
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What about Pinocchio? I've never seen it but Jepetto seems pretty dad-like to me.
[edit: great. With this post I became Homosexuals the Gorilla. I hope this rank doesn't last long]
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What about Pinocchio? I've never seen it but Jepetto seems pretty dad-like to me.
[edit: great. With this post I became Homosexuals the Gorilla. I hope this rank doesn't last long]
If it makes you feel better you've always bee Homosexuals the Gorilla in my mind.
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If it makes you feel better you've always been Homosexuals the Gorilla in my mind.
To the tune of Carolina In My Mind by James Taylor.
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Where does he get the hat anyway? It appeared, and I thought nothing of it. I went back, and found that on the morning of the fight, he just casually flips it on, and is considerably more hard-ass from that point on, and does not seem to have taken it off yet. I think it would be incredibly easy for Onstad to attribute Ray's abilities / attitude to the hat, and would just plop him back in his old self right after this. I wouldn't be very surprised at all, and I really don't see this having much of an impact, except for maybe scattered references later.
On a side note, I find it amusing that people here have commented about how characters such as Nice Pete might show up in the GOF, and then we are given a blog entry that shows that such characters are quite certainly not at the acres. I guess it's not paranoia that makes people here think Chris might be visiting...
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Where does he get the hat anyway?
I assumed eBay? (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01272006) Though the hat isn't mentioned there...we know there's probably not enough room in a daily strip for everything Ray might have acquired on eBay...
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That would definitely a more useful purchase than a "I Ride With Rodney" pin, indeed..
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That would definitely a more useful purchase than a "I Ride With Rodney" pin, indeed..
Caesar Rodney is famous for a midnight ride (http://www.ushistory.org/march/bio/rodney.htm).
...the more you know.
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i could totally see nice pete roll up on the fight, it fits his MO. though, it remains to be seen if even he can keep up with the sheer brutality of the fights. he seems more of a private sort, so the camaraderie of violence might deter him. im definitely surprised lyle didnt go. am i the only one that thinks he should be directly involved, instead of watching the updates?
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I'm guessing Lyle's not in the fight because he is technically a stuffed tiger?
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I'm guessing Lyle's not in the fight because he is technically a stuffed tiger?
Bigot! Oh sure, you've got stuffed animals at home in your bedroom too. But you wouldn't want your sister to marry one.
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You think tearing off some dude's face is bad...have you SEEN what a cat can do to a stuffed tiger?
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Bigot! Oh sure, you've got stuffed animals at home in your bedroom too. But you wouldn't want your sister to marry one.
For your information, my sister has dated a stuffed tiger. She was also, for a brief period, engaged to a stuffed rabbit.
Not only did I give my blessing, but, as a gift to the young lovebirds, I bought the damn rings! Or at least I tried to...though it turned out like real rabbits, stuffed rabbits don't have fingers...part of a myriad of complications that led to the wedding being called off.
I'll leave it at that. Still a sensitive subject.
You think tearing off some dude's face is bad...have you SEEN what a cat can do to a stuffed tiger?
Yes. And that was not a cat caught up in the furor of a huge battle royale. I don't think any of us want to see Lyle meet this end.