The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Science & Nature => Topic started by: Bobby Isosceles on March 15, 2006, 06:07:56 am
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Chocolate babies! (http://www.oldtimecandy.com/chocolate-babies.htm)
People they are called Negroes and Negresses respectively.
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Then she gets over it because it's 2026 and that's when the cyborgs start to invade. And they're knocking on her door.
Happy Birthday Kid. I hope those Cyborgs don't get you.
Haven't you heard? The Cylons look like people now.
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People they are called Negroes and Negresses respectively.
I recently sent an e-mail to my friends letting them know how I was doing up here in Utah. One of the things I wrote was that I had only seen one negro in Utah and he's a guy from Louisiana that works on the job. Both of the umm, African Americans that recieved the e-mail wrote back to tell me that was unacceptable language. I had no idea.
~Paul
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I recently sent an e-mail to my friends letting them know how I was doing up here in Utah. One of the things I wrote was that I had only seen one negro in Utah and he's a guy from Louisiana that works on the job. Both of the umm, African Americans that recieved the e-mail wrote back to tell me that was unacceptable language. I had no idea.
~Paul
I thought that was pretty common knowledge. What I don't understand is the continued persistence of these atavisms such as the NAACP ("colored people") or the United Negro College Fund.
If the term becomes offensive, fine, but do a clean sweep of all the offending instances.
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Onstad's baby is well costumed - good to see he's enforcing those gender roles early.
I consider myself progressive and not-into-gender-stereotyping and all that. We had our first child recently, a girl, and her room is green and we dress her in many different types of funky clothes with various colors, including blue. But one thing I have learned since becoming the father to a daughter...despite myself, she is incredibly super-cute in pink. Have I bought into the patriarchy? Perhaps, but she's damn cute.
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MSC! It's been a while!
I am glad to hear your wee one has funky-fresh stylz. Indeed, perhaps the only thing cuter than a baby/toddler girl dressed as a doll, is when a baby/toddler boy is dressed as a mini-man. I have no doubt that I couldn't resist making my child up like an idot if I had one - the opportunity is too great. Also, my co-worker brought her newborn son to our office party in January dressed in a little chick one piece affair with a little feather tuft on the bum for a tail - it was so cute it hurt. Her husband refuses to take the boy out if he is dressed in said chick suit.
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Um, "negro" isn't offensive. It's the name of the race from which African Americans (or African Canadians, or whatever) are ethnically founded.
White people are Caucasians (or occidentals). Black people are negroes. Chinese people are orientals. Am I missing something?
Also, I realize that people can choose to be offended by whatever the fuck they want, but people have to understand that YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED.
However, I *do* have the right to free speech. So fuck you, niggaz!
Also, if you use the word to describe yourself, I may choose to use that same word to describe you.
Also, have you EVER met a white person who was offended by being called "white" or "cracker" or "Caucasian" or "whitey" or whatever other names people can throw our way? Someone called me a "honky" once and I nearly coughed up a lung laughing so hard. Yeah, I'm white. And...?
Bottom line: People are morons, no matter what their race, color, or creed.
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This has got to be up there with the most wandered threads in all of board history. A fine birthday gift for little miss Onstad, indeed.
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The reason white people dont' get offended by that is because it doesn't really mean anything. Around where I live (oh god, I'm going into this mode, oh god stop me), when I hear the word "nigger", it's rarely meant in a very friendly way. That word has a goddamn history. I don't like people using it to describe themselves... but them using it doesn't mean you can use it freely. Some black people calling themselves "niggers" doesn't mean that word has lost its connotations-- language is dependent on context. Not to mention, the person someone might call a nigger isn't necessarily the person calling himself that. The thing is, for good or ill, that word has far too many connotations to deep issues in this country.
No one is saying they have the right to not be offended. What they're saying is, that word has a history, it's a word that makes people upset, and a word that would be better off dead.
The whole "race" concept is too complicated. A very large number of anthropologists consider it to be largely a cultural distinction, it has no significant genetic basis, etc. I think the real reason it's fallen out of favor is because of its association with white supremacy, eugenics, etc.
Wikipedia says:
"In the face of these issues, some evolutionary scientists have simply abandoned the concept of race in favor of "population." What distinguishes population from previous groupings of humans by race is that it refers to a breeding population (essential to genetic calculations) and not to a biological taxon. Other evolutionary scientists have abandoned the concept of race in favor of cline (meaning, how the frequency of a trait changes along a geographic gradient). The concepts of population and cline are not, however, mutually exclusive and both are used by many evolutionary scientists.
In the face of this rejection of race by evolutionary scientists, many social scientists have replaced the word race with the word "ethnicity" to refer to self-identifying groups based on beliefs in shared religion, nationality, or race. Moreover, they understood these shared beliefs to mean that religion, nationality, and race itself are social constructs and have no objective basis in the supernatural or natural realm."
But, yeah. I think the reason people are offended by the whole oriental/occidental/negroid thing is because of the social implications, connections with racism, etc. Typically, people saying that some groups are scientifically different has led to saying that these groups are inferior or superior to each other. THis makes people uncomfortable.
As you said. Yes, you're white... so what? It doesn't mean anything to be white. no one is ashamed of being white. No one has ever thought they were inferior for being white, and if they do, they can get over it pretty quickly. As far as we've come on the race issue, people are still going to be sensitive about it. People are just sensitve about some things. Do they have the right to be sensitive? yes. Do they have the right to never be offended? no. Do they have the right to ask that you stop? yes. If someone called me a fatass, and I asked them to stop, they could either keep calling me a fatass, or they could stop. It is, obviously, their right to choose. But if they can choose, what purpose is served by calling me a fatass instead of, say, a man of gravity? Same thing for calling me a skinny little bitch, or a nigger, or a cracker, or whatever. People have the right to say it. That doesn't mean they should.
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also:
side_show, I am the poster child for what happens when your parents try not to make you conform to gender roles.
as a child, I had a doll. A cabbage patch kid. Named Adam.
that is all.
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Some shit that motherfuckers absolutely refuse to accept or even understand.
Preach, my friend. I wholeheartedly wish that it would do some good.
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also:
side_show, I am the poster child for what happens when your parents try not to make you conform to gender roles.
as a child, I had a doll. A cabbage patch kid. Named Adam.
that is all.
Heh.. you weren't the only one. I turned out basically okay.
*looks in mirror*
OH SHIIIIIIIIIT!
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My favourite kinds of racists are the "some of my best friends are black!" racists, or even better, the "Oh, is Stanley black? I didn't notice. I don't see people in terms of color." racists. Or the people are all the same racists. Oh really?
Yeah, people are different. Not even all white people are the same. You get some dude from Long Island and some dude from Alabama together and they'll be quite different in terms of culture, language, etc., and that's just two white dudes from the same country!
Hell, get someone from New York City and someone from New York State and their culture is almost completely different. Television isn't as great an equalizer as we'd imagine it would be.
So, to reiterate: people are different, no matter what their race, color, or creed. To pretend that they are not is silly. You are a silly person for trying to do that.
Also, I'm not sure the ostrich approach to racial epithets is really a healthy or productive one either. Pretend the word doesn't exist? Ask people politely not to say it? Why give it power by making it so sacred we daren't utter it?
Nigger is kind of a funny word anyway. Say it like, 25 times in a row and it sounds like a children's toy or a breakfast cereal or something.
Also, I admit that I don't even understand the etymology of a lot of racial slurs. Like Kike? Where the hell does that come from?
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Yeah, people are different. Not even all white people are the same.
No shit?
Nigger is kind of a funny word anyway. Say it like, 25 times in a row and it sounds like a children's toy or a breakfast cereal or something.
Just don't do it with any black people around.
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The funny thing, both of the black people who called me on the carpet for using that word come from totally different socioeconomic backgrounds, yet they both said almost exactly the same thing. "what year is it? Paul, you can't say that word in 2006." Funny, and they don't know each other either.
~Paul
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I'm not saying that people are the same. I'm saying that the concept of scientific "race" is out of favor, for whatever reason. Maybe some day people will be able to get over their racial hang-ups. But right now, that hasn't happened yet. The same way the Nazi's made social darwinism forever uncool, the KKK and the like have made any scientific study of racial differences unpopular.
I actually probably do have some wierd racial hang ups. I mean, you're talking to the kid who's having a major guilt trip because he's getting "welcome to Washington University, from the Hispanic Student Society!" letters. I didn't lie. I am technically "hispanic". My mom is from south america. But what does that mean? I look white. I don't speak spanish. my last name is "Burton". Should they specify "hispanic: the kind that look like mexicans"? I don't know. But it makes me uncomfortable. ANyway... I don't know. It just seems so... unscientific. Am I not hispanic because I look white? Aren't hispanic people people from spain... and aren't spanish people white? Drawing boundaries between "races" is just too tricky.
In the same wikipedia article, they listed the formerly accepted racial groups: australoid ( Aborigines), Capoid ("bushmen", whatever that means.), caucasoid (what the hell? the example is an arab guy.), Mongoloid, and Negroid.
Anyway... I'm not suggesting we pretend racial slurs don't exist. But using an insult to describe someone is always unnecessary. This can go back to when someone, I forget who, insulted a woman by calling her a cow. We then entered a whole debate about people of gravity. Did he have the right to call her a cow? absolutely. Did her gravitude have anything to do with why he was mad at her? not really. Calling her a cow didn't really accomplish anything, except making the gravitious members of the board upset.
Similar story to paul's: my dad had to take a group of representatives for his company to (I completely can't remember the city. Birmingham? The one with the famous pictures of dogs biting people during the civil rights movement.) One woman, a middle aged black woman, commented that she didn't feel comfortable going there. She said "I know it probably isn't like that any more... but when I hear that city's name, I just think of police dogs and firehoses." Every black person in the room, with the exception of one guy, I think, said that they felt the same way, but hadn't wanted to say anything.
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Also, I admit that I don't even understand the etymology of a lot of racial slurs. Like Kike? Where the hell does that come from?
I've heard the "circle" explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kike).
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The funny thing, both of the black people who called me on the carpet for using that word come from totally different socioeconomic backgrounds, yet they both said almost exactly the same thing. "what year is it? Paul, you can't say that word in 2006." Funny, and they don't know each other either.
Oh sure, but the "Words You Should Tell People Not to Call Black People" was the highlight of the newsletter last month, so they all know, Paul. THEY ALL KNOW.
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I'm not saying that people are the same. I'm saying that the concept of scientific "race" is out of favor, for whatever reason.
Yeah, and there's still a "Flat Earth Society" too, and some moron wrote a book declaring that the Earth does not revolve around the sun, and people are still denying evolution despite scientific evidence. People are morons.
And I know you're not saying that everyone is the same - but the implication in a lot of this "ohmygoddon'tmentionrace" talk is that we shouldn't notice or at least mention that people of different races are different. Physically, culturally, psychologically, etc. And I think that trying to pretend that they aren't, or at least acting like you don't think people are different when you're among society, is wrong.
I mean, I may treat some people differently because they're different. I may speak more slowly to Indians (both Slurpee Indians and Casino Indians). I may over-explain things to the Finnish. I may not tip a Honduran waitress as much as I would a Costa Rican one, but none of these things make me a bad person.
There are so many legitimate reasons to despise and mock people - doing so just because of their race is only one of them!
I've heard the "circle" explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kike).
Yeah, I'm not buying any of those. Also, I guess I don't understand why some people don't like Jews. Is it because of Ben Stiller?
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And now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome LENNY BRUCE!
Are there any niggers here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any niggers here tonight?" I know there's one nigger, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two niggers. And between those two niggers sits a kike. And there's another kike— that's two kikes and three niggers. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a pollock; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. And there's one, hip, thick, hunky, funky, boogie. Boogie boogie. Mm-hmm. I got three kikes here, do I hear five kikes? I got five kikes, do I hear six spics, I got six spics, do I hear seven niggers? I got seven niggers. Sold American. I pass with seven niggers, six spics, five micks, four kikes, three guineas, and one wop. Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness. Dig: if President Kennedy would just go on television, and say, "I would like to introduce you to all the niggers in my cabinet," and if he'd just say "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" to every nigger he saw, "boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie," "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" 'til nigger didn't mean anything anymore, then you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a nigger at school.
(from Julian Barry's screenplay for "Lenny")
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This has actually been bugging me a lot lately, partly becuase I've been working in customer service and so have been examining more how I respond to people from different groups (not just ethnic also socio economic etc, not something you'd think you could tell from a brief visit to a gas station but generally I just count teeth - and no I don't want to hear about you goddamn college-graduate-millionaires that have no teeth and how I'm being prejudiced against the toothless) and I basically came to the conclusion that you can't come close to judging people by their appearance so now I just assume everyone is exactly the same as me. Until proven otherwise I just assume everyone I encounter can speak english reasonably well, is reasonably intelligent, works a shit job and is reasonably well educated. If it becomes apparent this is not the case I adjust but you just can't second guess every person you talk to and I think it would be insulting to do so.
With the nigger thing, first of all it's not really an issue in my country (we have our own wonderful little slurs, too many of which are depressingly tied to the world 'aboriginal' which just makes any conversation akward) but I would have thought it would make more sense to encourage people who weren't black to use it in a friendly way, by saying 'No, we can say that, but you can't say that' it just reminds everyone of the negative connotations rather than re-inforcing the positive way in which it was intended.
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Since that post ended up being either offensive or incoherent anyway I thought I'd add that the people you insulted with your e-mail Paul are indicative of a problem in our society: people think what something looks like is more important than what something means and don't actually bother to see if there's any correlation between the two. This is because people are idiots, people of every race, everywhere.
Yeah you! YOU HEARD ME BUDDY!
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I don't have anywhere near the time I'd like to to properly address this topic but here goes:
I had a Portuguese friend of mine ask me a little while ago about the terms "Aboriginal" and "First Nations" and which was appropriate, and what the difference was between the two terms. I said that I didn't know, and that as long as the intention behind it was respectful, I'm sure that whatever term he used would be fine.
That said, Paul, is it possible that your friends were letting you know the term was outdated because they care about you? I don't know what the rest of the dialog entailed, so maybe they're just jerks. But I mean, if I am out in public, and someone I don't know refers to me as an Indian I don't normally respond to it, but I do sort of assume they're working from a place of ignorance and are possibly stupid and/or racist. FYI: I know in the US a lot of people still use the term Indian or American Indian, but in Canadian linguistics the term is no longer in use common use - it's basically used as a racial insult, and is, in Canadian linguistics, the equivalent of calling an African Canadian a Nigger. I don't know what else they said, but maybe they just don't want you to get into a situation where you're around folks who you don't know who will make negative assumptions about you for using an out dated term?
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Paul, is it possible that your friends were letting you know the term was outdated because they care about you?
Yes, that's exactly the case. I was just about to write that in response to Doc, but you beat me to the punch. My friends weren't insulted because they know I love jigaboos.
~Paul
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Well, Paul's friends could have made a point about him referring to people of color (that's my favourite euphamism for "negro" next to "Darkie" which also cracks me up - I guess it's the opposite of "Whitey") is that if he were referring to some white dudes he probably wouldn't have mentioned that they were white, but if he sees a black man, he's not just a man to him, he's a BLACK man.
I can see how that may be a problem.
I go through my day pretty much fitting in and I almost never have to even consider my race when I am out among society. It just doesn't come up much, unless I have to go to North Philly (Philly Harlem), where I am instantly and constantly reminded that I am extremely white, and where everyone - men, women, old people, children - tries to sell me drugs, because that is usually the only reason a white person goes into that neighbourhood.
Oh yeah, I want to buy drugs just because I'm white. Those people are fuck*ng racists.
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Well, Paul's friends could have made a point about him referring to people of color (that's my favourite euphamism for "negro" next to "Darkie" which also cracks me up - I guess it's the opposite of "Whitey") is that if he were referring to some white dudes he probably wouldn't have mentioned that they were white, but if he sees a black man, he's not just a man to him, he's a BLACK man.
I can see how that may be a problem.
You have to consider the context of why I mentioned the "negro" in my e-mail. It's because they have become such a rarity in my life in Utah that I thought it worthy of mention that there is apparently only a lone black person in all of Utah. I've been here for nearly three weeks now and still he's the only one i've seen, and he's from Louisiana and here for the same reason I am, to work and then leave when the job is done. I was saying it out of amazement, I wasn't using his color as a signifier.
I did see a guy with dreds and one of those funky knit caps with the red-green-yellow african colors, but he turned out to be a white guy.
~Paul
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I wish we could still say 'colored people.' It has always sounded poetic to me. And ever since reading Henry Louis Gates' memoir of that title, it has an air of nostalgia. It's completely unlike 'people of color' which is obviously some kind of bureaucratese.
Speaking of Jough's 'didn't notice X was black,' I had an interesting experience a couple weeks ago when I had to call the zoo police about someone a member of the public had complained about. She pointed the guy out to me and I went inside to phone and describe him. The first thing the cop asked was whether the guy was white or black. I couldn't answer, and what was interesting about this was that I felt like an idiot. Because obviously we ALWAYS notice, so how I could not know?
I had to say, the guy was not very white nor very black and his hair was completely covered with a hat. But I still felt like an idiot. (And before you ask - I knew the cop and he's black.)
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I wish we could still say 'colored people.' It has always sounded poetic to me. And ever since reading Henry Louis Gates' memoir of that title, it has an air of nostalgia. It's completely unlike 'people of color' which is obviously some kind of bureaucratese.
My friend always uses the term 'coloured' rather than black, and while I have no real problem with it it's too broad a brush to paint with. Depending on personal definitions, coloured can mean anything from 'just' black people to people of any ethnicity other than caucasian, which makes it seem a lot like 'us and them'.
For the same reason, I do not like the term 'Asian' when used to describe someone specifically. Obviously it is a statement of fact, but calling someone Asian could mean someone is Russian, Iraqi, Japanese, Indian... Not good to simply refer to them as that I suppose. Eh, not that I know anything really.
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Yeah, I'm not buying any of those. Also, I guess I don't understand why some people don't like Jews. Is it because of Ben Stiller?
Actually, I think the "circle" explanation is pretty legitimate-sounding. They mentioned it as the most likely explanation for the origin of the slur on both the History Channel and Wikipedia, and we know that neither the television nor the internet ever lie.
Why do some people dislike Jews? Because they're God's Chosen People. Obviously. I mean, that's got to rub a lot of people the wrong way.
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Yeah, how come God didn't choose Lithuanians?
My incredulity at the circle explanation is why would goyim use a Yiddish word, then? It doesn't make sense. Maybe if they called people "circs" or something for circles, but kike?
No, not the simplest explanation either. Where's Ockham when you need him?
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And now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome LENNY BRUCE!
I wrote a post last night and I thought I sent it - (did someone delete it?) but my point was that I live in Hawaii and here, I am a racial minority. There's even a word for us - haole. Now every once in a while, a white kid will get beat up by the (usually way bigger) Hawaiians and Samoans in the schools here. And, almost always, the kicking and punching is punctuated by creative phrasing around the word 'haole'. So, some people here are sensitive to the word.
Every once in a while,. usually someone who doesn't know me, will say 'Hey haole, got a lighter' or "spare some change' or whatever. It doesn't bother me. If they said 'hey you' I might not even know they were talking to me. And if I got all indignant, it would lend artificial power to a grouping of sounds just as Lenny Bruce points out in that script excerpt.
I really believe the emotion and intention behind words are more telling than the words themselves in most cases. Racial epithets are coward's words 80% of the time - it's all they have - and not reacting at all takes the illusion of power away.and strips bare the individual using the term, usually exposing personal weakness and ignorance. Or, on Paul's case, a mere usage to demonstrate an objective point.
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Yeah, how come God didn't choose Lithuanians?
My incredulity at the circle explanation is why would goyim use a Yiddish word, then? It doesn't make sense. Maybe if they called people "circs" or something for circles, but kike?
No, not the simplest explanation either. Where's Ockham when you need him?
Gentiles used the word because they heard the immigrants referring to the mark as koykel or kikel, as I understand it.
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Where's Ockham when you need him?
Shaving.
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BP has a relatively new initiative regarding D&I (diversity and inclusion). Basically, each employee has to consider the audience at all times. In practice, this means not calling your friend a stupid cunt if there are other people around, since you don't know what their reaction will be. I think it is always the right of the listener to be bothered by things that are said in their presence, and it is our responsibility to try not to offend people. In a cultural/sociological/whatever sense, we can probably all agree that it would be better if words didn't have such power. In practice, you know you can't call your mother a dumb bitch, even if it doesn't mean anything, and even if it is something you routinely call your close personal friends, with affection. Also, just because some people are receptive to certain words or phrases from one peer group, it's not realistic to expect them to be receptive to them from other peer groups. I might, under certain circumstances, call someone a "cock-whore" and have it be taken in the spirit it was intended, with a joyful smile - whereas someone else might call that same person that, and get a very different reception.
The beauty of the internet is that I can be all disrespectful, and not have any real negative fallout. It's important to remember that this does not necessarily translate well to the real world.
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I really think the issue with some people using "nigger" and thinking it's ok because black people have been known to call themselves that is this: similar to what nabubrush said, you never know your audience. The guy you're calling a nigger may be OK with it, and he might find it really offensive. The same way I can call my friend sarah a cunt. cunt is a great word. it's a strong word. but I don't assume I can call every woman I meet a cunt. that would be rediculous. words are important, obviously. I would never censor any word. and I'm not trying to. but there are some words it is, undoubtably, better not to say.
with regards to "people of color", etc, I think it's an issue of a lost euphemism-- after long enough the euphemism becomes so linked to the meaning that it is no longer a euphemism. I mean, theoretically, saying that you're going to put something to sleep is innocuous. But you'd never say "I'm going to put my baby to sleep"-- this phrase is now permanently linked to dog-euthanasia. In the same way, "colored" or "negro" isn't offensive in itself, but it has acquired negative connotations.
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I really think the issue with some people using "nigger" and thinking it's ok because black people have been known to call themselves that is this: similar to what nabubrush said, you never know your audience. The guy you're calling a nigger may be OK with it, and he might find it really offensive. The same way I can call my friend sarah a cunt. cunt is a great word. it's a strong word. but I don't assume I can call every woman I meet a cunt. that would be rediculous. words are important, obviously. I would never censor any word. and I'm not trying to. but there are some words it is, undoubtably, better not to say.
with regards to "people of color", etc, I think it's an issue of a lost euphemism-- after long enough the euphemism becomes so linked to the meaning that it is no longer a euphemism. I mean, theoretically, saying that you're going to put something to sleep is innocuous. But you'd never say "I'm going to put my baby to sleep"-- this phrase is now permanently linked to dog-euthanasia. In the same way, "colored" or "negro" isn't offensive in itself, but it has acquired negative connotations.
That's backward. I put the baby to sleep every night. Two weeks ago I had to ask the vet to humanely kill my very old and very ill cat. I told my daughter he gave the cat a shot that made him sleep and not wake up.
Euphemism has it's place but should never stand in the way of correct usage.
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Just for the record, 'jungle bunny' is on the do not use list.
~Paul
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I guess I was thinking if someone is really committed to taking the power away from these "fighting words" by repeating them over and over they ought to not only discuss it here but also discuss it at a bus station in Compton, or a lunch counter in Harlem, or Bourbon Street in NOLA, or . . . because I've heard this often, and it never seems very convincing to me. Yeah, it'd be great to defuse all these words, but I can't fault people for being enraged by hearing them. I'm sure if I grew up with the typical black experience, I wouldn't want someone to tell me that n***** shouldn't bother me because it's "just a word".
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No no, I'm not saying that it shouldn't bother you, I'm saying that I don't care if it bothers you. Why should I change what I say just because you don't like it?
Is one person's preference for not hearing something more important than another's preference for saying it?
THIS IS THE EPISTEME, PEOPLE
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Is one person's preference for not hearing something more important than another's preference for saying it?
Sure, lots of times. Depends on how much bigger they are than me. And whether they provide my paycheck.
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Ech, Sorry Paul, I should have assumed your friends weren't dicks but I was tired and cranky.
I think invevitable has the right idea about how relatively inoffensive words get all stigmatised.
Similarly Nabrush is right about how nobody should be a dick to a stranger, but I think there are limits, for instance I wouldn't have an issue describing someone as black to a stranger but I know some people would be offended by that word. However thats a fairly basic description and, at least for me, doesn't imply any kind of judgement and there are times that to not use it would just make things more complicated.
I've never come across someone being offended by being called asian (not that it's a term I use a whole lot). Most of my friends at uni at the moment are asian (lots of international students over here) and I know many refer to themselves as such but then again since I rarely use the term I don't know how they would react if I used it. I think they'd be ok with it.
I'm with Jough on the offending people thing, people might get offended by what I say (and if I know they'll get offended by something I'm not going to deliberately do it again) but at the same time I'm no mind reader and I'm not going assume that someone doesn't want to be reminded of their race when the easy course of conversation involves pointing it out. Basically I hold this position because my white guy guilt made me worry about it for years until I realised it made things more akward and drew more attention to the issue by not mentioning it.
Oh, going way back in the topic, I believe 'Bushmen' was used to refer to certain tribes in south africa, think the guys in 'The Gods must be crazy', but I could be wrong on this.
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No no, I'm not saying that it shouldn't bother you, I'm saying that I don't care if it bothers you. Why should I change what I say just because you don't like it?
Is one person's preference for not hearing something more important than another's preference for saying it?
THIS IS THE EPISTEME, PEOPLE
Whoops, no. Sorry. I meant someone's personal preference for being an absolute cock-mouthed screwhead is usually less important than another person's personal preference for not hearing offensive bullshit. But that's just the way I roll. However, as I said - I certainly think more of people for walking the walk by spewing offensive bullshit in front of the folks that it will offend. I mean, it's really ballsy to say N***** this and N***** that in front of a audience of electrons spewing out of a computer monitor and all.
I guess I'm saying that it would be nice if folks gave a fuck about how the next guy felt about stuff. However, I'll defend anyone's right to be a complete cock to others.
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it would be nice if folks gave a fuck about how the next guy felt about stuff.
This should be right up there in the Achewood Gospel with "Don't bone your neighbor's wife. That is hell of lame." (CortJstr 1:27)
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nabubrush, thank you for saying what I wanted to say.
the fact that I care too much about being a cock to strangers is what kept me from accusing someone of being a cock to strangers.
in the future, there will be a party composed of internet libertarians. i called it, 3/16/2006.
I dont know what that has to do with this, but it has made me notice trends in Internet Thought.
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Whoops, no. Sorry. I meant someone's personal preference for being an absolute cock-mouthed screwhead is usually less important than another person's personal preference for not hearing offensive bullshit. But that's just the way I roll. However, as I said - I certainly think more of people for walking the walk by spewing offensive bullshit in front of the folks that it will offend. I mean, it's really ballsy to say N***** this and N***** that in front of a audience of electrons spewing out of a computer monitor and all.
I guess I'm saying that it would be nice if folks gave a fuck about how the next guy felt about stuff. However, I'll defend anyone's right to be a complete cock to others.
That sounds right to me. No one has a right not to be offended AND no one has a right to go around intentionally offending. Also, No one has a right to offend. BUT everyone has a right to be offended.
In other words, the 'offendee' has a right to an internal reaction. They have a right to a legal and reasonable external reaction.
The 'offender' should always be prepared to bear the consequences of what might happen when potentially offending someone.(Which may include any number of illegal and painful and/or debilitating external reactions)
In other words, personal responsibility on both sides of the equation is probably more important than the perception of 'rights'.
Things happen. The real issue is whether the 'offender' is willing to live with the consequences of words or actions.
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My point, intelligently and clearly conveyed in a manner that is concise and not offensive.
Yeah, what he said.
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alohadawg-- yes.
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Exactly, 'Dawg. It isn't a question of "right to be offended" -- it's a question of responsibility towards your own speech, understanding that your speech causes reactions in others, and willingness to deal with the consequences. Very well said.
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My Offended friends Yolanda and Brinia (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN8984-E-1024.jpg) and Teshia (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN10821-E-1024.jpg).
~Paul
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Once again the Dawg speaketh wisdom from on high: everyone should just be decent folk and act pragmatically.
And Paul, Teshia looks hell of nervous to be surrounded by you four dudes (At least one of which looks drunk in a starbucks. What is the story there? Or is he one of those guys like me who always blink at exactly the wrong moment)
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Oh, man, they are so negroes. Dude, you totally called it. They definitely look to be of negro descent. I don't see why they're offended. Are they Eskimos or just dark skinned Italian or something?
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And Paul, Teshia looks hell of nervous to be surrounded by you four dudes (At least one of which looks drunk in a starbucks. What is the story there? Or is he one of those guys like me who always blink at exactly the wrong moment)
Nobody was drunk, but Gerardo is a goofy fucker so ain't no telling what's up with him. I don't think Teshia was nervous, but possibly. We had all just met only a couple of days before. This is part of the group I was training with in San Antonio. I met A lot of nice people while I was there. Robert (my right) is now in Freeport Texas on a LNG construction project, Gerardo (my left) is in (near) Washington DC on a power plant construction project, Teshia is in Pasadena (Houston) Texas on a refinery maintenance job, and Riley hadn't been placed when I left, but I think he was destined for a cement plant construction project near Los Angeles.
~Paul
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Paul, those women are fine. Especially Brinia.
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Paul, those women are fine. Especially Brinia.
Yeah, I agree. Brinia is also 16 years old so cool your jets.
~Paul
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That doesn't make her any less fine, and I think I was pretty restrained. You're lucky I didn't start talking about those guys.
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psh, this is such a man thing.
inner dialog: "hah, i will show these guys how attractive multiple of my friends are!"
other guy: "wow, that girl is attractive. Damn."
outer dialog: "shit man! she's underage! How dare you think in such a way!"
Alll I have to say is this: it doesn't matter that she's underage to me, because I am 17.
So: wow, she is pretty.
...is it the mustache? is that how you get girls to like you?
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I should point out that even though I mentioned that I found her attractive, I have no immediate plans to stalk her. Or, indeed, anyone else in those pictures.
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inner dialog: "hah, i will show these guys how attractive multiple of my friends are!"
Actually I was showing how non white they are. I also sent the offending e-mail to Jesse (picture available this pm), but he didn't complain so...
...is it the mustache? is that how you get girls to like you?
Dude I just looked at your myspace page, your friends list is crawlin' with hotties and based on thier comments a number of them are dying to get on your dick. So we should be asking you that question.
~Paul
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I should point out that even though I mentioned that I found her attractive, I have no immediate plans to stalk her. Or, indeed, anyone else in those pictures.
This is just a general note to say that stalking is bad. Don't do it kids, it will eat your soul.
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This is just a general note to say that stalking is bad. Don't do it kids, it will eat your soul.
Also if you are stalking a fine 16 year old and get caught a lot more than a fine awaits.
~Paul
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Also if you are stalking a fine 16 year old and get caught a lot more than a fine awaits.
~Paul
True, I was thinking of other situations than this one specifically, but yes; very true.
Thanks McPaul the crimedog!
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man.
paul, I did not notice that those comments made it look like they are dying to "get on my dick"
that is crazy.
I think the trick, in my case, is to be "harmless". If you have a girlfriend and are kind of skinny and unmuscled, girls will not hesitate to be your friend.
but thank you for telling me that. It made me smile.
also: I realized that you were pointing out their non-white-itude. I was just messing with you.
final also: the one of girls who is too too hot, I took baths with as a baby. We have pictures of me in the bath with her. This is so sad for me.
it is funny to know a mind-bendingly attractive girl who enjoys math and reading, and is one of the smartest people I know. what is the deal with that.
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This is just a general note to say that stalking is bad. Don't do it kids, it will eat your soul.
It's not always bad.
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man.
paul, I did not notice that those comments made it look like they are dying to "get on my dick"
that is crazy.
I think the trick, in my case, is to be "harmless". If you have a girlfriend and are kind of skinny and unmuscled, girls will not hesitate to be your friend.
but thank you for telling me that. It made me smile.
also: I realized that you were pointing out their non-white-itude. I was just messing with you.
final also: the one of girls who is too too hot, I took baths with as a baby. We have pictures of me in the bath with her. This is so sad for me.
it is funny to know a mind-bendingly attractive girl who enjoys math and reading, and is one of the smartest people I know. what is the deal with that.
Because Music + Science = Sexy (http://www.questionablecontent.net/merch.php)!
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It's not always bad.
Soul Eater!
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Soul Eater!
Hey! What happened to the love? Did I miss something in one of the many threads I haven't had time to read? WTF?
Also, Paul - those are in deed some ladies of pigment and of quality. Do they know that there are a bunch of random people talking about them and their feelings about certain racial words?
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Also, Paul - those are in deed some ladies of pigment and of quality. Do they know that there are a bunch of random people talking about them and their feelings about certain racial words?
Well I was gonna mention it, but then Nabu started stalking Brin...
~Paul
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Hey! What happened to the love? Did I miss something in one of the many threads I haven't had time to read? WTF?
No no, I mean Soul Eater in the most adorable of ways. Hobot knows this, deep down in her soul eating soul.
All is well Smells, you may sleep soundly tonight.
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No no, I mean Soul Eater in the most adorable of ways. Hobot knows this, deep down in her soul eating soul.
All is well Smells, you may sleep soundly tonight.
Are souls vegan? Oh well, too late now.
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Are souls vegan? Oh well, too late now.
Don't worry, though I am an animal, I was not harmed in the process of you EATING MY VERY SOUL!
I mean how could I be?
You merely, ATE MY INCOPOREAL SOUL!!
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C'mon, Q, you have to admit it: souls are delicious.
(CONFIDENTIAL TO THEINEVITABLE: Based on the pictures you just posted on your LiveJournal... well, were you not girlfriend-having and I not boyfriend-having, and were you not five years younger than I am, I would make certain overtures. You're cute.)
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Okay I admit it. Souls + Eating = Crazy Delicious!
(also I won't make a judgement call on the level of theinevitable's hittableness, mostly because I'm tired of him hitting on me IRC all the time anyway. It's always like "No no, I told you, no maximum cuddles" and then he's all "but that's the most two dudes can cuddle!" He puts on a good pout though, I'll give him that.)
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Man the discourse around here really has gone downhill. Whatever happened to a nice giraffe-placenta-based thread? Is that too much to ask?
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a v-person who called me cute: thank you. that is nice to hear. If I were to IM you, it would not be because you called me cute. just for the record. Also: don't say that in front of Paul, or he will make untoward assumptions reguarding you, and dying to get on things. and that is just rude.
a certain sir: you were not to mention those times. i was desperate, and I needed cuddles. Maximum cuddles were all that would quench my lust for cuddle.
...all of this talking about myspace made me go on a disgusting myspace tour. I asked something like 40 people to be my friend.
and then it was awkward when they all started IM'ing me and I had to pretend I had friended them for any reason other than "hmm that girl is kind of cute".
souls are vegan. I looked it up. anyone can eat a soul.
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C'mon, Q, you have to admit it: souls are delicious.
(CONFIDENTIAL TO THEINEVITABLE: Based on the pictures you just posted on your LiveJournal... well, were you not girlfriend-having and I not boyfriend-having, and were you not five years younger than I am, I would make certain overtures. You're cute.)
The hell he's 17. I'm two years his senior, but he looks older than me.
Oh, and theinevitable: I didn't realise that was a picture of you on last.fm (seriously, it looks like a photo of a pretentious indie musician ... er, I meant that as a compliment). You are, indeed, a handsome lad.
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Um, "negro" isn't offensive. It's the name of the race from which African Americans (or African Canadians, or whatever) are ethnically founded.
White people are Caucasians (or occidentals). Black people are negroes. Chinese people are orientals. Am I missing something?
I go with Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid because it makes humans sound like we're descended from robo-dinosaurs.
My bleeding-heart GF gets hella pissed when I refer to our Chinese, Japanese and Korean friends as "Orientals." "Rugs are oriental," she tells me, "not people." Then I'm all like "Shut up, you blue-eyed Kraut" and then she sees that deep within my coal-black heart a tiny ember of Sensitivity still smolders.
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Hobot: I am, indeed, 17. For like 1 more month.
Also: thank you. My goal is basically to be a pretentious indie musician.
the main reason I look like that is that my girlfriend aspires to be a photographer. she makes everything look pretentiously arty.
Is today "tell theinevitable that he is cute"... day... err... period of several days?
anyway: thank you. it is nice to hear that I am considered nice looking.
...as long as Hobot keeps wearing the "HUGS" shirt.
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Why should I change what I say just because you don't like it?
because you don't want to continue to alienate those around you anymore?
or,
you'd like to stop hurting those you, hypothetically, care about?
the really _neat_ thing about being a functioning member of a society,
is that life stops being completely about yourself and begins to involve
other people.
i tried it once, it was grand.
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I only hurt the ones I love.
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Actually I think that is basically the purpose of this entire message board.