The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Wild Card => Topic started by: Honeycombhideout on April 23, 2006, 02:39:41 pm
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http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2687398?showw=no&refsite=6166&htv=12&htv=12 (http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2687398?showw=no&refsite=6166&htv=12&htv=12)
Thoughts?
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I'm just glad the internet wasn't around when I was an obnoxiously precocious kid - I had to make due with traditional media when I made a complete fool of myself.
There's a lot of videos like this on youtube too...I keep trying to figure out who's responsible. Does an older sibling put them up to it? Do parents put these up? The kids themselves? I don't get it.
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:'(
Further amusement from laughing at dangerously unbalanced children (it's okay for me to do it, I'm still young)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=382612478064184263&q=computer+kiddy&pl=true
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It starts out cute and ends up 'exploitative'.
The Star Wars Kid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKt4EhTXrCI&search=star%20wars%20kid) case (http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=e93a2a11-11c9-4d97-82ed-221d6cfa1ef2&k=14313) is finally over. He was suing his 'tormentors' for $351,000 and was hailed by educators for putting a face on 'cyber bullying'.
Although the definition of bullying has become so broad and some educator so militant (or litigation averse) that it almost seems silly, in my opinion. Between that, outlawing the game of 'tag' in some districts, and not allowing any kind of competition between kids, I'm sorry to say we are raising a generation of foppish wussies.
Venezuela is gonna come up here and kick our ass in 20 years if we don't toughen these kids up a little.
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You're not saying Pokemon Kid is a wuss, are you?
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It starts out cute and ends up 'exploitative'.
The Star Wars Kid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKt4EhTXrCI&search=star%20wars%20kid) case (http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=e93a2a11-11c9-4d97-82ed-221d6cfa1ef2&k=14313) is finally over. He was suing his 'tormentors' for $351,000 and was hailed by educators for putting a face on 'cyber bullying'.
Although the definition of bullying has become so broad and some educator so militant (or litigation averse) that it almost seems silly, in my opinion. Between that, outlawing the game of 'tag' in some districts, and not allowing any kind of competition between kids, I'm sorry to say we are raising a generation of foppish wussies.
Venezuela is gonna come up here and kick our ass in 20 years if we don't toughen these kids up a little.
I think I agree with you, partly. Having experienced some pretty nasty bullying myself (not that long ago) and seen authority figures ignore it or encourage it, there's obviously a problem with this sort of thing. I agree that litigating, banning games, etc. is the wrong way to go about it (i always got picked last for kickball, but it was still hella fun). But all these measures aren't actually people trying to do anything about the problem, it's just good ol' american stick-yer-head-inna-sand, band-aid, middle-class problem solving. The real problem goes unchecked and the adults get to pat themselves on the back because they banned dodgeball. Now Bruno Jr. just has to wait till after gym class to get his abuse on. What needs to happen is teachers, parents and school administrators need to take an active role in making sure that school is not a hostile place for children.
As to the "wussies" comment, well that's a little bit offensive. Granted, I'm a self-avowed wussy, but calling someone a wussy because they don't want to be bullied, abused and beaten up every day untill they're terrified of going to school is callous and mean. Yes, bullying is just small-minded people trying to be big, and we all know that, that doesn't make it any less hurtful for a little kid/adolescent.
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hell of correct.
hell of correct.
this is also why I was bothered by that "Incredibles" movie.
Has anyone ever told someone not to try their hardest? Are "people who are good at things" the new "people who are bad at things"? How could I have missed this?
what I really didn't understand was how the Bad guy was using his mind to make himself equal to the superheroes. Why is that necessarily bad? People who make animated movies with computers apparently think that the strong should not be challenged by the smart. The whole reason the bad guy was bad was that he had been ignored and mistreated by the superhero guy.
granted, he was really annoying... but his "horribly evil" lines about how his inventions would make everyone stronger somehow seem to be explaining the essential purpose of technology.
but, returning to the "Cyber Bullying" thing... jesus, parents and teachers are so clueless. "what? billy called you a fag?? Gosh. I guess we'll have to make calling people fags against the rules. That will fix everything!"
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I'm inclined to treat videos of this sort as the next logical outgrowth of the family photo album/camcorder trend -- the desire of parents and siblings to capture a kid doing something "cute"/stupid, and the inability of the kid not to realize that this is not in their best interests, with the tangy zip of the Internet. The fact that people haven't caught on to the significant added cruelty level of posting it on the Internet, where the potential exposure is huge, is just a sign that our mentality hasn't always caught up to our technology. (I often wonder how well aware people are of how big the Internet is and how quickly word can travel on it; this is especially true after reading the case of a woman who self-published her novel-length Star Wars fanfic and offered it for sale on Amazon.com, defending herself by saying that "only (her) friends and family knew it was there." Well, no, ma'am -- the Internet is not closed. Once it's on the biggest online bookseller, your potential lawsuit is visible to anyone with a computer. What about this is unclear?)
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the desire of parents to capture a kid doing something "cute"/stupid
I hate that shit. Hove some dignity.
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I think the message behind the Incredibles was really that if everyone is special, then no one is.
I know my parents', and especially my grandparents' generation has looked down on each subsequent generation as being slackers, but the kids coming up today (and yes, this is a generalisation) have trouble with logical thinking, let alone execution. Is the test too hard? Why, we can simply lower the standards. We don't want our kids to get low self-esteem because they score low on a test, do we? You know what builds self-esteem? Setting lofty goals, and then meeting them by rising to the challenge. Being given everything and sheltered doesn't result in high self-esteem. It engenders resentment at best, and incompetence as the average outcome.
Over-protecting children is under-protecting them. The kids who can't play outside because of germs will end up being too weak to survive as adults. Treating everyone the same is telling kids that there is no point in excelling because there is no reward in it. Just tow the line. Do the minimum. Know your place.
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the point is that everyone is special, because everyone is unique. Mr Incredible had amazing strength and stuff. his wife could stretch. the bad guy could invent things. why is it that when mr incredible uses his powers, or his wife uses hers, it's a noble and amazing thing, but the very idea that the other guy could use his brains to invent things was abhorrent?
I don't know. I understood the point they were trying to make, but the examples and comparisons they used to make it really bothered me. It seems to me that the world is shitty enough that trying to protect young kids makes sense.
as a counter-example: my dad never played on an organized sports team until he was in junior high. he played baseball and football in the backyard, and basketball wherever there was a hoop.
my younger brother, who is the opposite of me in terms of being an incredibly athletic person, has been playing on organized teams (little league, rec leagues, etc.) since he was in 1st grade. In 3rd or 4th grade, he realized that he needed to pick his sport-- most of the kids on his teams had already decided to focus exclusively on one of the sports. Because he could no longer compete with people who played baseball every season all year, he quit baseball, and now he only plays basketball. I realize that there is no way to avoid this. he is now an incredible basketball player. but should kids really have to be so competitive at such a young age?
Similar things apply to college admissions; younger and younger kids have to focus on college in every decision they make. And increasingly, being perfect sometimes isn't enough. people are increasingly competitive, but the process ends up seeming completely random. this is especially apparent among my immediate circle of friends-- one girl, whose every move has been calculated, who everyone assumed was perfect for every school she applied to, was rejected by every school except UNC (which, of course is an incredible school. but try telling that to the girl whose parents have been telling her she should go to Harvard since she was fresh out of the womb). On the other hand, a girl I know who is quite well-balanced, but certainly not as "perfect" as the first girl. She is going to Yale.
I realize that this increased selectivity across the board is the result of increasing college admissions, higher competitiveness, etc. But is this really where we want education to be going?
There has been an ongoing poll which asks this question: what is the most stressful thing that you've had to go through in your life?
Answers have shifted over the years: getting a job (in the depression), fighting the war (40's), buying a first house, etc. Increasingly, people answer "getting into college". Is this what we've come to?
and... yeah. Pokemon kid sure is funny.
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Whenever I start to feel bad about these damn kids today, I think about folks like Andalucia, Bozack, Hobot, Theinevitable, and Judyetc. Then I feel better.
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thanks a lot.
I'm going to be honest. I saw a guy at a party saturday night, and I convinced myself it was you. mostly because you'd asked me what dorm I was in, I had the impression that you were at Wash U (although I guess that was in the past?), and the guy looked really really familiar.
also: to clarify, the example of my two acquaintances might have been due to karma or some kind of divine retribution. the first girl is a bitch. also, she was the type who assumed she'd have no trouble getting into any school. whereas the second girl is nice, and interesting.
also, our theory is that the first girl's parents helped her a little too much on her essays. that kind of thing always shows through. or maybe, her essays were a little too much "what they wanted to hear"...
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I don't think anyone reads those essays. And if they do, they are a very tiny part of the decision process.
I might be talking out of my ass here, but it doesn't matter which college you go to as long as you get a degree in something worthwhile.
A friend of mine might be starting this two year radiology program, I hear that is pretty good. He probably won't get in though, because he fails or withdraws from every class he takes. This other dude is doing some kind of music engineering, I dunno if that will be worth anything, but becoming a music producer is probably something that would pay off, and it's easy. If I had a decent studio, I could probably do that shit with no prior knowledge. The only hard part is getting good drum sounds...
Friend of mine doing journalism, she'll probably be fucked when she's out of school. Business, that will probably go nowhere, he is probably just doing it because his sister is involved in Wall Street. My good friend across the street, he is going into communications, I think, because he wants to do advertising, and that might be a good idea because is an amazing artist and has a great mind for marketing. Other dude started some honors program of literature and theology and he just dropped out despite having a scholarship. I think he lost the scholarship and was just lying about it, though. Definitly for the best, a theology degree would have been retarded, would have spent the rest of his life as an assistant professor or a wino.
Personally, I think the only good choice is the one I made, doing this pharmacy thing, but if you get involved in a six year program... well lets just say I want to punch myself in the balls, full strength, when I think I still have over three years to go with school. I'm happy with my choice, though. It's just taking so long.
Other good ideas: trade school for plumbing, trade school for electrician, swishy cape in the Paris sewers.
Someone gave me The Incredibles DVD and I haven't watched it. I hear I am missing out.
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swishy cape in the Paris sewers.
Oh yeah, I'm doing that one, except at Truman they call it "English". Weird.
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hm.
I have a hard time believing that every single college admissions person in the country is so full of hatred for mankind that they make such a big deal out of the essays, if they don't matter.
also: the issue is not whether which college you go to matters. The issue is that people think it matters. The competition is created by students, and a student who doesn't want to compete gets screwed.
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Answers have shifted over the years: getting a job (in the depression), fighting the war (40's), buying a first house, etc. Increasingly, people answer "getting into college". Is this what we've come to?
I would like to be sure that this is not just because younger people are answering the poll now. Getting into college may suck, but if you still answer that question that way when you're 50, you're a very, very lucky person who's had a very lucky life, who's never had a serious illness, gotten divorced, lost a job and run out of money, had a loved one die...
Where you went to college matters less and less every year you get further from college. I know this is a small voice crying out against much noise, but try not to let them fuck your mind about this. Also apparently research has been done that shows that it matters much more what kind of person you are than where you actually went to school - that people who got into more famous colleges but choose to go to less famous ones, do just as well in life as the people who actually went to the famous colleges. I could find the link to where I read this if you care. Of course, this may actually be more depressing - since you can't change the kind of person you are. But it does seem to mean that you might as well not worry if you don't get into Harvard.
But seriously, there is a logical point here. Only a small percentage of people go to Harvard and Yale. Look around you. Is everyone else living on the street in cardboard boxes, miserable, lonely and drug-addicted? No. We're doing fine.
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First thing, people who care what college you went to are douchebags. I know, I've worked with enough of them. Funny thing, these people all went to the two biggest schools in the state. You know the ones, the schools that are so elite they only let in the first 30,000 or so that apply each year. Yeesh!!!
Secondly, the Incredibles is a good topic of discussion because it's a pretty complex movie. God bless Pixar.
~Paul
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The only people who care about where you went to college are grad school admissions people. Maybe your first employer will ask. If you do go to one of the Ivy League schools, you'll have a slight leg-up as alums like to suck each others' dicks, and you can suck some dick to help yourself get ahead a little, although that probably won't work out as you'd hoped either.
Your degree and major will be important for the first year or two out of college. Then, as wombat says, it gets less and less important. Most people won't give a shit where you went to college, IF you went to college, or what you studied while you were there. Employers will only care about your last place of employment or two, and if college is one of those, then maybe they'll care about what you studied. For me, it has never come up. I mean, my education is on my resume, but I went to community college part time while I worked, and went to a state school for the second two years. I got a good education because I took a good education. There are decent resources at any university to get yourself the knowledge that you need. It's just a matter of whether you're willing to work for it or not. Also, books help. A lot. But you don't need to go to college to read books and gain knowledge and understanding.
You're not really going to learn anything until you're actually working in your chosen field anyway. Theoretical knowledge is important of course, but it's hardly a substitute for in-the-field work where you have to apply true understanding to get the job done.
In the IT field, I would rather hire someone who has been working in the field for the past four years and has no degree than hire someone just fresh out of college.
Of course, some fields are harder to get into without a college degree, like the sciences.
EDIT: I didn't mean to sound like I'm saying that you shouldn't go to college. You definitely should if you can. And pretty much everyone in the U.S. can. College is great, but not because it'll help you get a good job or that you'll learn much in your classes (although you will if you study pretty much at all). It's a whole different social structure than high school or the "real world," you'll meet lots of interesting people, and college girls tend to be really really easy to have sex with, as their only real options are poor college guys. If you're at all charming you already have an edge over your competition.
But I digress.
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You know what else no one cares about once you're done with school? Your test scores. The only time anyone ever asked my SAT scores was when I thought about applying for a part time job.... teaching SAT prep. (I laughed and tossed the application. I don't even know where I'd find the damn things.)
And you know what they say about youth being the best time of life? It's bullshit.
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I guess what I meant to say was people who care where they themselves went to school as if going to Texas A&M somehow makes them superior to someone who went to University of Texas or vice versa. Those people are douchebags.
Seriously!
~Paul
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And you know what they say about youth being the best time of life? It's bullshit.
I dunno about that... grammar school is going to be pretty hard to top. (I went to a private school. Mad rowdy.)
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First thing, people who care what college you went to are douchebags. I know, I've worked with enough of them. Funny thing, these people all went to the two biggest schools in the state. You know the ones, the schools that are so elite they only let in the first 30,000 or so that apply each year. Yeesh!!!
Secondly, the Incredibles is a good topic of discussion because it's a pretty complex movie. God bless Pixar.
~Paul
That's one way that 'adults' bully each other. They pick on what school you went to or what car you drive. Because they are assholes.
My biggest problem with the whole bullying issue in the schools is that it seems to have become a situation where the 'teaching moment' has been discarded in favor of the punishment moment. There will ALWAYS be someone around who is a prick and rather than developing people into a) non-pricks if possible and b) individuals who can have self-worth and tools to handle assholes when necessary we have created a class of victims who don't have to develop any skills for managing these situations because surely authority will step in and smite the bully.
When you are all grown up, you are on your own. And if you didn't learn how to hold your head up and deal with the pricks of the world, it's going to be a lot harder to survive and, yes, compete in your world for the things you want.
This is another problem I have with education today; the whole idea that we should not have 'winners' or that 'everyone is a winner'. It sounds nice but in the world, unfortunately, there are a lot of zero-sum games we have to play and learning how to compete, win graciously and find the positive elements of losing is really important in developing the skill of strategizing long term.
I know that there will be kids who have these skills innately but there also kids who need to develop these skills and learn, and if they deprived of the opportunities, I think that maybe there will be lot of people who can't compete. Which could lead to a lot of other things, like depression, or substance abuse.
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I dunno about that... grammar school is going to be pretty hard to top. (I went to a private school. Mad rowdy.)
Well, OK, you can't knock the womb. But other than that.
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Just don't ever try that shit with me, asherdan.
I think we all know that I have the bigger cock.
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I guess we can't call him little the Inevitable anymore. Damn, the Inevitable is growing a pair today. He's comparing cock sizes with Ash, calling Jough old on his birthday, and breaking up with Hobot because her test scores are too low. Where is that sweet kid we used to know?
~Paul
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Nah, he just spent a weekend at my alma mater.
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I'm sorry. I'm just getting sassy.
I did not connect these things.
sorry to have an ego.
I was trying to live less of a shame-based life. But I can't live without Hobot. And jough is a nice guy, it was just a ribbing! (For her pleasure!)
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Nah, he just spent a weekend at my alma mater.
Douchebag.
~Paul
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dang. this whole discussion has been one of those "I know it isn't steak. computers are telling my brain that it is thick and juicy. But do you know what? Ignorance is bliss" type things. I am aware that in the end, which college you go to does not effect your life that heavily (unless you do something like kill yourself, develop a drug habit, meet your future spouse, father a child out of wedlock, etc.). At the same time, I am hell of excited about going to a good school. I feel essentially vindicated. I realize that this is a silly thing, but it is such a cool place.
I am trying to hard not to brag at school. But it's difficult, because no one at my school has heard of it. So when I say "Washington U in St Louis", they say "oh, that's nice" and smile. i want to rant about it, say how hard it is to get in, and generally be a jerk about it. This is completely against my character. So I have not done it. But... damn. I can't even let myself casually drop comments into conversation ("oh yeah, a bunch of kids were deciding between Duke and Wash U..."). probably for the better.
two perfect "school spirit" type shirts:
"Emory University was my Safety School" (apparently Emory is trying to start up a "rivalry", and the Wash U student body finds this hilarious.)
"(Front): Washington University. (Back): It's in St Louis, damnit!"
but really, I realize that I would be just as happy and (hopefully) successful if I had attended a "lesser" school. Especially because I live in North Carolina, and UNC is wonderful. As is NC State, etc.
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dang. this whole discussion has been one of those "I know it isn't steak. computers are telling my brain that it is thick and juicy. But do you know what? Ignorance is bliss" type things. I am aware that in the end, which college you go to does not effect your life that heavily (unless you do something like kill yourself, develop a drug habit, meet your future spouse, father a child out of wedlock, etc.). At the same time, I am hell of excited about going to a good school. I feel essentially vindicated. I realize that this is a silly thing, but it is such a cool place.
I am trying to hard not to brag at school. But it's difficult, because no one at my school has heard of it. So when I say "Washington U in St Louis", they say "oh, that's nice" and smile. i want to rant about it, say how hard it is to get in, and generally be a jerk about it. This is completely against my character. So I have not done it. But... damn. I can't even let myself casually drop comments into conversation ("oh yeah, a bunch of kids were deciding between Duke and Wash U..."). probably for the better.
two perfect "school spirit" type shirts:
"Emory University was my Safety School" (apparently Emory is trying to start up a "rivalry", and the Wash U student body finds this hilarious.)
"(Front): Washington University. (Back): It's in St Louis, damnit!"
but really, I realize that I would be just as happy and (hopefully) successful if I had attended a "lesser" school. Especially because I live in North Carolina, and UNC is wonderful. As is NC State, etc.
You can't live the future where it doesn't matter what school you went to NOW, so for now, be happy and humble at your good fortune. If you can.
Because you know, today might be your last day on Earth so there's no good reason to be a crap dude. So I'm glad you not being one.
Good going. I got accepted there and had to go to Ohio State for financial reasons. I had a great time and got a quality education, and I have only once or twice in my life wondered what would be different now.
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I am trying to hard not to brag at school. But it's difficult, because no one at my school has heard of it. So when I say "Washington U in St Louis", they say "oh, that's nice" and smile. i want to rant about it, say how hard it is to get in, and generally be a jerk about it. This is completely against my character. So I have not done it. But... damn. I can't even let myself casually drop comments into conversation ("oh yeah, a bunch of kids were deciding between Duke and Wash U..."). probably for the better.
As you know, I am from Virginia. I had the same problem. Conversations with peers and adults from the area went (and still go) as follows:
Them: "So, where are you going to school next year?"
Me: "I'm going to Smith College." [pause] "In Massachusetts."
Them: [pause] "Oh!" [nervous smile, shifty eyes]
Me: "It's one of the former Seven Sisters."
Them: "Uh-huh."
[crickets]
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I got about three different reactions when I told people I was going to Williams:
1) "Where?"
2) "Oh, with your test scores, I thought you'd go to a good school."
3) "William and Mary? Congratulations!" (The best version of this was when it was dropped into conversation by an acquaintance that "I didn't know you and Stacy were both planning on William and Mary..." Stacy went to Washington and Lee.)
The other thing I've observed is that, for undergraduate, you announce your choice with pride, as if you've won a wonderful prize. For graduate school, you announce it with relief, because oh God it's finally over and you got in somewhere. I am attempting to get excited about OSU, but man, so tired.
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"I didn't know you and Stacy were both planning on William and Mary..." Stacy went to Washington and Lee.
Hee, very nice.
The first college I went to was Boston University. It is completely hopeless to expect people in New York City to distinguish Boston University and Boston College. Maybe people anywhere, but this is the only case I can speak to.
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The other thing I've observed is that, for undergraduate, you announce your choice with pride, as if you've won a wonderful prize. For graduate school, you announce it with relief, because oh God it's finally over and you got in somewhere. I am attempting to get excited about OSU, but man, so tired.
Which OSU?
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Douchebag.
~Paul
IRONY!
I've got to weigh in now. I think it is important where you go to school. Does it make you smarter, more worthy or a better person if you go to a better school? Nope. But let's face it -- not all schools are equal. Some schools have better engineering programs, or english programs or anthropology or whatever. Some schools are all-around mediocre.
Let me tell you about my college history. I came out of highschool an academic hotshot. I was a valedictorian (OK, 1st of 12, but 1st just the same...) and a National Merit Scholar. I went to Wash. U. for 5 semesters. While I was there I slacked off far more than I should have. I ended up transferring to the University of Kentucky, where I finished my BA.
There was a huge difference between the two schools. At Wash U, I took a class with a Nobel prize winner. I studied creative writing with a National Book Award winner. My friends from Wash U. are now work at SETI and Time magazine. The people I was around were smart, creative, driven and funny -- much like this place. It was a community I was thrilled to be a part of. I would not be the man I am today if I hadn't experienced Wash U. or someplace like it.
UK wasn't like that. It was OK, and the education I got there was not lacking, but uninspired. With a single exception, I can't recall much favorable about any of my classes. I made some dear friends at UK, a couple of whom I've lost track of and deeply miss. But in general, the experience was more like an extension of high-school than anything else.
In the long run will it matter to your career where you go to college? Maybe not. But it will affect you are and what you become. I know that the conventional wisdom these days is that college is just a way to buy a better job, that it's just career training. But I learned important stuff in college that has no direct connection to what I do for a living. And I think I learned more and better stuff because I was intellectually challenged by better faculty and rigorously selected students.
I don't think it makes me better or smarter because I went to a good school for a while. If anything, it taught me humility by exposing me to so many better students. I think I was lucky to have that educational experience and I'll always regret not taking full advantage of it at the time. But if you're saying there's no value in going to a better school, well that's just wrong.
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oh man
yeah, this is some kind of retribution thing for my dad, because he got into Wash U and couldn't afford to go.
I keep getting "Wow, congrats on Washington and Lee!" This is, of course, not mentioning the "wow, all the way to the west coast!" type comments.
One kid said people kept asking him how he felt about George Washington doing well in March Madness.
also: augustwest, thank you for saying that. Because I was thinking that, and didn't want to get "oh come on, you don't know what you're talking about, etc."
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I don't mean to rain on anyone's excellent college experiences. But it's terrible to hear that people seem to think their whole lives depend on what acceptance letters they get when they are 17. It doesn't matter that much. If you're the kind of person who's going to get something out of college, you're going to find a way to get it. If you don't get it at the first place you end up, you can pick up and go somewhere else, like I did (it's supposedly easier to get into most schools as a transfer than as a freshman, by the way). Or you'll find it where you are even if it wasn't your dream school - there are good faculty at lots of places you wouldn't expect just because it's hard to get a professor job these days. Harvard (or insert your favorite example here) produces way, way, way more PhDs than they can hire as faculty, right?
And conversely if you're the kind of person who isn't going to take advantage of what's around you, it doesn't matter where you end up. You can waste four years at Harvard or Yale just as easily, if more expensively, as anyplace else.
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Which OSU?
Ohio State. I keep forgetting there are multiple ones.
And... yeah, I have to copy August about overall school environment. I think going into college with the idea that it's job training and thus any education that prepares you to work is a good one leads to you losing a lot of opportunities. (The biggest college flame-out I've seen so far was a friend of mine who went in with the expectation that she would grind pre-med in four years and be out; as anticipated by everyone besides her, she hated pre-med, and she ended up dropping out because she couldn't think of anything else appropriately vocational to do. Never mind that she loved French and would have made a fantastic French language or lit major -- the fact that it wasn't immediately employable in a highly lucrative field meant that she couldn't even consider it.) Going to a small liberal-arts school has made all the difference to me in terms of educational development (small classes are both more welcoming and more rigorous, since you can't hide) and graduate school preparation (since it's much easier to do undergraduate research at a school our size than at a huge school with tons of demand and tons of graduate students). Then we get into the intangible elements of the school community -- what kind of students the school tends to attract, what kind of social groups they form, and other facts about the spirit of the place not made clear from admissions materials.
I think the take-home message of all of this is that, while almost all schools will give you at least adequate training in your field, and all but the most borderline of those will offer you opportunities for excellence and joy, you still have to evaluate how well the programs and community seem to fit you. While there's something to be said for adapting to whatever you face, you need to make sure you're attending a college that adapting to won't be a pain for.
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Going to a small liberal-arts school has made all the difference to me in terms of educational development (small classes are both more welcoming and more rigorous, since you can't hide) and graduate school preparation (since it's much easier to do undergraduate research at a school our size than at a huge school with tons of demand and tons of graduate students). Then we get into the intangible elements of the school community -- what kind of students the school tends to attract, what kind of social groups they form, and other facts about the spirit of the place not made clear from admissions materials.
Amen to that. My college was smaller than my high school. I enjoyed the "Big giraffe in a small pond" aspect. I was president of my fraternity, music director at the college radio station, and lead singer for one of the better-liked campus bands. If I had gone to Penn State, I would have been lucky to do one of those things. I learned a great deal more about leadership and original thought than I would have at a big state school (where I could have gone for just about free).
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I don't mean to rain on anyone's excellent college experiences. But it's terrible to hear that people seem to think their whole lives depend on what acceptance letters they get when they are 17. It doesn't matter that much. If you're the kind of person who's going to get something out of college, you're going to find a way to get it. If you don't get it at the first place you end up, you can pick up and go somewhere else, like I did (it's supposedly easier to get into most schools as a transfer than as a freshman, by the way). Or you'll find it where you are even if it wasn't your dream school - there are good faculty at lots of places you wouldn't expect just because it's hard to get a professor job these days. Harvard (or insert your favorite example here) produces way, way, way more PhDs than they can hire as faculty, right?
And conversely if you're the kind of person who isn't going to take advantage of what's around you, it doesn't matter where you end up. You can waste four years at Harvard or Yale just as easily, if more expensively, as anyplace else.
I don't disagree with anything you've said. You can get a good education anywhere, if you want to bad enough. However, I don't think that means that you shouldn't take advantage of the opportunities that you are presented with. If you can go to a better school (and can pay for it) there are certain advantages.
But the whole "Unless I get into X school, my college career is worthless" mentality is just stupid.
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Now, now, people, can we just agree that there are many possible paths to success in life and leave it at that? I am sure that, way back in the dim past when I was appointed as undergraduate advisor, the first thing they told me was that 'shank you and leave you in a ditch' was a bad line of argument to get into with a student, no matter how great and frequent the temptation.
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I just want to go on record saying I hate this entire thread.
Just hate it to hell.
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I can see what V is saying, though. Some people are so focused on their chosen career that they blow off everything else. This could lead to some missed chances-- maybe I am right and I do hate calculus, but maybe I'm wrong, and calculus is awesome! You can't use something you don't know. There's something to be said for following your passion-- but looking at college as only a means to a career with a high salary is a mistake.
On the other hand, I am amazed by the people who keep asking if I'm going to be a music major. Do I seem to be destined to live a life of destitution and disappointment? I plan on taking music classes in college, but my major will hopefully be something useful.
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On the other hand, I am amazed by the people who keep asking if I'm going to be a music major. Do I seem to be destined to live a life of destitution and disappointment? I plan on taking music classes in college, but my major will hopefully be something useful.
Please don't do that. My biggest scholastic regret is that I didn't stand up to my Dad when he insisted I get a "useful degree" and not be a music major. "Music is a nice hobby, but you can't make any money at it." In retrospect this attitude was particularly odd because his sister was a very successful musician. Anyway, I studied business and failed miserably. Things would have been so much different had I pursued music, something I love. I may not have found a practical application for a music degree, but flunking out of business school sure as hell didn't do me any good. It took me 20 years to realize i'm not a dummy.
I'm not a dummy. *weeps*
I just want to go on record saying I hate this entire thread.
Just hate it to hell.
I agree, this thread sucks ass.
~Paul
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This ain't my fora, but i'm locking this thread anyway.
~Paul
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Paul, you certainly are not a dummy.
You..Are..Rad!
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Please people, can we go just one day without threatening to murder one another?
Were I to stab Asherdan I would stab him in the left ear. IS THAT A PLACE YOU HAVE EVER BEEN STABBED, ASH?
Yeah, everyone has to take general requirements to get a degree. I'm surprised that "professional studentship" is getting a bad rap here. I would have thought that people would encourage leaving the abattoir of academe for as long as possible. The real world kinda sucks as compared to college.
College is becoming "that thing you do after high school" and while many jobs require a college degree, going to college to "get a good job" is just silly these days. You won't be any better qualified for a job than you were before college, because your knowledge will be entirely theoretical. Of course, there are some career paths that absolutely require a professional career track. No one is doing amateur lawyering in their basement, or practicing surgery in their breakfast nook (unless they're serial killers or pet abusers or something).
Many, if not most jobs, though, do not really require a college education. Math isn't secret. It's not like the academy holds its knowledge ransom. At least, not any more. You can learn everything you need to know with books and practice.
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This ain't my fora, but i'm locking this thread anyway.
Well, I posted a long reply while the thread was being locked, so I unlocked it to give someone else the last word.
Also, I think there are only four people who should be deciding on whether this thread should be locked, and you're not one of them, Paul.
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um, paul, just to say, I also suck as a musician. Part of it is that I acknowledge that it is something I love, and something that I will continue to enjoy, but not something I can be successful in.
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I think there are only four people who should be deciding on whether this thread should be locked, and you're not one of them, Paul.
This is the second time today i've been shit on for trying to do something nice.
Man, this thread just keeps getting better and better.
~Paul
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Well, V may or may not deserve to be personally attacked. I mean, we don't know.
Anyway, Ash, you know we're all about Education here. Being exposed to things that may be outside of one's regular interests is like the purpose of this board (well, that, and complaining about free entertainment).
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We are basically having a flame war about what to major in in college. Have I mentioned lately how much I love you guys.
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This is the tamest, nicey-nicest flamewar on the whole dang internet.
P.S. You're all a bunch of pig-fuckers.
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Thought I'd add two one hundredths of a dollar to this, just for the hell.
I hate college. I hate the classes, (many of) the people and (many of) the professors. This is probably because I'm a dumbass and can't comprehend arithmetic or reading comprehension, but aside from that, it seems to me that college is just a more elaborate and involved version of high school that you're more likely to fail at. I'm also not a fan of the whole "academia" thing to begin with (in fact I'm writing my term papuh about that now, "Jane Eyre and Wide Sargasso Sea: Intellectual Parasitism"). I went to college because my parents wouldn't not let me, I have no actual skills or work ethic, so I can't exactly survive on my own quite yet, and I thought "just maybe, it won't suck". I was wrong about the last one.
The work isn't any more "meaningful" for me, it's the same stuff, just harder. This is probably more a problem with me, as I'm not interested enough in my chosen field to really find it fulfilling and the fields I am interested in are above and beyond my faculties. But basically, what I'm trying to say, if you care to listen, is that anyone going to college shouldn't expect a revelatory experience of learning and fun and personal revelation or any of that. If that's your experience (as I hear it is for many people) more powuh to you. I, will be over here, bitching.
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Flip's parents are going to kill me, but Flip, you need to take some time off from school, get a job, and go back to college if and when you are ready to get something out of it. You're just wasting their money, and your and your professors' time. Tell your parents that I dropped out after three semesters, and I eventually finished a PhD, so taking time off is not the kiss of death to getting a degree. Hey, I'm an imaginary person on the internet - how could I be wrong?
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I kind of wish I would be going to school for music. But also kind of not.
It doesn't matter. Every possible decision should prove itself bad, otherwise it probably was a bad decision.
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Flip's parents are going to kill me, but Flip, you need to take some time off from school, get a job, and go back to college if and when you are ready to get something out of it. You're just wasting their money, and your and your professors' time. Tell your parents that I dropped out after three semesters, and I eventually finished a PhD, so taking time off is not the kiss of death to getting a degree. Hey, I'm an imaginary person on the internet - how could I be wrong?
Well see, the thing is, I attribute these problems more to just my personality. I'm really the sort of person who can find a way to be unhappy anywhere. But, y'know I've thought of "taking time off", but really what would I do then? I'd get a shitty job and get high all the time and play video games. At least at school I'm forced into doing work. Anyway, let's not turn this into "Flip's Problems".
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I hope V is still reading this thread because she is doing the right thing for herself.
Life is about choices. Every choice you make results in some mixture of self-approval and regret. Sometimes it's 99% / 1% sometimes it's a neutral 50/50. V is a brainiac 'kid' (only using the term in the sense that I graduated from THE Ohio State University in 1990) who has whatever pressures she has and we don't share them. Although I've often disagreed with many things that come out of Academia and I've met many career academics who have no ability to function in the world outside academia, I also know that many many good things come out of colleges and universities, in terms of science, art, and thought. Not to mention a steady stream of fairly qualified professional workers.
Ash's worldview is different from hers and those of you in starting in the fall or finishing your first year of college also have a very different worldview. As does Wombat and as do I.
This is a nearly impossible discussion to have with so many people from so many disparate backgrounds and at such different places in their lives. I am sure that I missed out on something in life going to OSU, but you create the value of your experiences by your behavior and your choices in real time. I personally made great friends, had some good experiences, and came out ahead of where I started.
Some of the comments above seem like a few people are carrying around a little baggage...
Gnawing the old bones of your regrets until you can only taste the rotten flavour of your own black despair is a pretty rotten way to live. I know. I had to grow my soul back piece by piece after my first marriage went supernova. It would not have mattered where I went to school at that point. Remember that 99% of your life and world are variables.
YOU are the only constant.
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P.S. You're all a bunch of pig-fuckers.
Dude, don't say "pig-fuckers" in front of Jesus!
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(I think this is the part where the thread should be quietly closed, without comment, so that 'Dawg has the last word. You can delete this post, to make it more neat. I am so sorry that I started talking about college.)
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I disagree with AD that the disparity of our backgrounds makes this thread impossible. I think it makes it fascinating. It perfectly illustrates how many different paths there are.
Don't be sorry, Inevitable. The wandering has been lovely, you beautiful pig-fuckers you.
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So uh... whaddya think that Pokemon Kid will end up like?
Jail, I say. Possession of kiddie porn.
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So uh... whaddya think that Pokemon Kid will end up like?
Jail, I say. Possession of kiddie porn.
Him? He's going to be the very best, like no one ever was.
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He's gonna fuckin catch 'em all is what he's gonna fuckin do.
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He's gonna fuckin catch 'em all is what he's gonna fuckin do.
He does look like a catcher to me.
~Paul
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I disagree with AD that the disparity of our backgrounds makes this thread impossible. I think it makes it fascinating. It perfectly illustrates how many different paths there are.
Don't be sorry, Inevitable. The wandering has been lovely, you beautiful pig-fuckers you.
Were we all as enlightened as you , it would be possible. But we aren't, and so the discussion degenerates to threat and innuendo.
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Were we all as enlightened as you , it would be possible. But we aren't, and so the discussion degenerates to threat and innuendo.
Well, of course I'm used to academic discourse always being on the verge of shanking-and-leaving-in-ditches, so it just seems normal.
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I hope V is still reading this thread because she is doing the right thing for herself.
Life is about choices. Every choice you make results in some mixture of self-approval and regret. Sometimes it's 99% / 1% sometimes it's a neutral 50/50. V is a brainiac 'kid' (only using the term in the sense that I graduated from THE Ohio State University in 1990) who has whatever pressures she has and we don't share them. Although I've often disagreed with many things that come out of Academia and I've met many career academics who have no ability to function in the world outside academia, I also know that many many good things come out of colleges and universities, in terms of science, art, and thought. Not to mention a steady stream of fairly qualified professional workers.
The reason I wasn't reading this thread today is that I have been running around like a fuck*ng chicken with my head cut off attempting to complete the approximately 2.5 billion projects required to let me leave college in a month or so. I'm having a nervous breakdown, thanks for asking! (And yet I'm still doing better than my friend one floor down, who is probably going to drop a thesis she's spent almost a year on, just because her advisor is a dick and stuck her on a doomed project...)
Anyway: Ash, I'm really sorry you feel the need to shank me and leave me in a ditch, but whatever. I'm too tired to not offend people, apparently. I have no problem with people who are professionally-minded in college; if you want to use college as professional prep, and you have a good experience doing so, far be it from me to disagree. That said, I think there's a big difference between a practical-minded professional-track student and the kind of person I was thinking about -- those who believe that college is nothing but a joyless, mandatory four-year slog, a huge Industrial Revolution-style abbatoir from which you emerge with a degree, and that in exchange for the miserable experience you should at least major in something that will make you cash when you leave. What I was trying to say is that I think an essential part of the college experience is a joy in learning and a willingness to learn to think in new ways; this can be done whether your ultimate goal is philosophy or business administration, but cannot be done if you think of college as essentially punitive.
Okay, shutting up now. Bring out the shank.
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Amen, sister.
*joylessly shanks self and falls into ditch*
hang in there, V.
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A Shanking! A Shanking!
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those who believe that college is nothing but a joyless, mandatory four-year slog, a huge Industrial Revolution-style abbatoir from which you emerge with a degree
You know, though, for some people it is, and they are not necessarily bad people. One person's intellectual joyride is another's torture chamber. It's not their fault that everyone is basically expected to go to college now even if they don't really need college training to do what they want to do.
I feel a need to defend people who hate college as a penance for how many years I taught before I figured out the following: I was not a normal student, I was the kind of student who grew up to be a teacher. It was stupid, and not fair, to judge student behavior on the basis on how I would have behaved.
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Oh, I'm not going to disagree that society would probably be better off if college wasn't as mandatory as it's become, or that it's not purely the problem of the individual. I'm not even referring as much to the "have to do college to qualify for the job that I want" crowd, though; I think that's reasonable, and I commend them for doing something unpleasant to them to live out their dreams. What gets to me is the "have to do college but don't actually have a good reason beyond vague societal expectation, so treat it as punitive, devalue opportunities available there, choose the easiest/most lucrative major option, etc." attitude.
I should really stop digging my own ditch/shallow grave, shouldn't I?
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What gets to me is the "have to do college but don't actually have a good reason beyond vague societal expectation, so treat it as punitive, devalue opportunities available there, choose the easiest/most lucrative major option, etc." attitude.
Damn, there goes my four year plan.
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Hamlet didn't kill himself! Didn't you go to college!?
Just kidding.
I actually did that for real, today. it was lame.
a kid made a comment about China. And then said "yeah, they love that over in Bangkok"
I said "that's... that's in Thailand."
I was informed that you could hear my sneer across the room (even though I actually do not even know how to sneer).
it ended up he was making a bad pun, I think. he's actually the most knowledgeable kid in the class.
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I must say, theinevitable, that I can identify with you wholeheartedly. Nothing smarts worse than being a pompous ass, all full of self-righteousness, and then being proven wrong.
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yeah. this is my one class where I'm a smart-ass. normally I control myself.
this kid is a kid who memorizes statistics, so everyone assumes he is always right.
"How can you say we aren't winning in Iraq, when last month we captured 534 insurgents, and foiled 7 roadside attacks?"
and such as that.
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yeah. this is my one class where I'm a smart-ass. normally I control myself.
this kid is a kid who memorizes statistics, so everyone assumes he is always right.
"How can you say we aren't winning in Iraq, when last month we captured 534 insurgents, and foiled 7 roadside attacks?"
and such as that.
Who says we aren't winning? We're winning a war of attrition, and that's good enough for me!
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Hey, I just read through this whole thread, and if you'll walk with me, I promise I'm going somewhere here:
The Pokemon kid. Watched the clip, and basically had no idea why it was funny, dorky, or otherwise worth watching. I wasn't being judgemental of people who laugh at kids for being pathetic. See, I work at a theatre school. The kids there are twice as dorky, annoying and are especially loud because they've gotten vocal training. And I laugh at them all. the. fuck*ng. time.
So, I ran into an old friend yesterday. A friend I had spent my early teens through early 20's with. The formative years. It had been around five years since we had last seen each other, and we had lost touch because we had lost touch, no fall out - just time and life. There was still a lot of love and warmth between us - it was a joyful moment to see him again after so long. I had been talking to my SO about this friend only a few days before, he had been on my mind, and then I was walking around this tourist mall near the theatre on a break, and there he was. He said he had had a dream about me a few days ago also. We had somehow conjured each other back into our lives.
We talked, and it was a little uncomfortable because since we had last seen each other, I had graduated from university, excelled in my field, built a significant life for myself, etc., while he had dropped out of university and worked at the same bar for all the years since I had seen him. A coworker of mine who also knew him came by for a second and my old friend told the coworker, "I just work at a bar." And I really hated hearing that. For this old friend of mine, acting came incredibly naturally, and he was deeply, deeply talented - far, far beyond me when it came to his abilities, skill and potential - and yet he had never followed through. And this was so hard to accept because he was so good.
We ended up in the lobby of the theatre where I work, and there was a large group of young teens there, about the age of when he and I had met, and they were running around and being loud annoying teenagers, so our conversation turned to them, and we reminisced about how hard it is being that age, and he said he wanted to tell them that "it doesn't get any better," and I talked about how as you get older, things don't get easier, but there are also these moments of simple joy, that have nothing to do with all the trappings of the sort of successes that are painted for you through learning institutions.
Jump to later that day, I'm sitting at my desk, and my coworker is sitting at hers and we're both staring off into space, and we catch each other staring, and laugh. I tell her about running into my friend, and how he had been the most talented, and how everyone including me had been so disappointed to see him not follow through with the whole theatre thing. But then I thought out loud about how I had been really excellent at my bank job, but that didn't mean I was meant to be a banker, and that's when it hit me that my happiness is not someone else's' happiness. My top job isn't on the top job list. Success is deeply personal, it's individual.
See, the Pokemon kid, he's got all his Pokemon shit, and he's got a collection and he's so proud of it that he's set up a camera and he's rocking out about it. And that's his success. And what he defines as success will change as he grows up, but right in the moment, he's rocking out. And I could laugh at it, but that makes no sense. And some business guy could look at how much I made last year, and he would laugh, and I could be a punchline to some wall street joke. But so what? I'm rocking out. And my old buddy, someone could laugh at him and say he's wasted five years of his life working at a bar, but fuck them, he's rocking out. Do you want to drop out of school, spend your life under the hood of a car, go to grad school? Whatever the fuck it it, fuck the rest of the world - you are rocking out.
Learn from the Pokemon kid people. The Pokemon kid is about education.
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Beautifully stated, side_show. Let me throw another can onto the glory that is your pile.
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Yeah, man, yeah!
And I'm rockin' out by laughing at the goofy Pokemon Kid.
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Man, Cancer sucks so much. Cancer took My best friend Matt (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Matt%20Veal/006_6-E-I_Matt_and_McKenna.jpg) about 3 years ago.
~Paul
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Fuck paul, that photo is so poignant that I should print it out and distribute it to actors who need to have an impetus to cry on stage. I lost a friend to cancer last year too. Fuck you cancer.
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Fuck paul, that photo is so poignant that I should print it out and distribute it to actors who need to have an impetus to cry on stage.
You have my permission.
~Paul
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This is making me wonder if someone should start a "Cancer: Bad Thing, Or Really Bad Thing?" thread to get all the cancer talk in one place, since it seems to be on our collective minds a lot lately. On the other hand, such a thread would instantly turn into a discussion of giraffe placenta, people's cats, or how much we miss Zartan. On the other other hand, this might not be a bad thing.
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This is making me wonder if someone should start a "Cancer: Bad Thing, Or Really Bad Thing?" thread to get all the cancer talk in one place, since it seems to be on our collective minds a lot lately. On the other hand, such a thread would instantly turn into a discussion of giraffe placenta, people's cats, or how much we miss Zartan. On the other other hand, this might not be a bad thing.
Cancer: It Stone Cold Sucks.
Giraffe Placenta: A Delicacy for Scientologists
People's Cats: Not Nearly as Cute as Mine
How Much We Miss Zart: Rather a Lot
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People's Cats: Not Nearly as Cute as Mine
Booyeah! She said your cat ugly and its breath stank.
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Booyeah! She said your cat ugly and its breath stank.
Aw HELL no!
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Aw HELL no!
Ooooh, he WENT there!
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Cancer: It Stone Cold Sucks.
Giraffe Placenta: A Delicacy for Scientologists
People's Cats: Not Nearly as Cute as Mine
How Much We Miss Zart: Rather a Lot
Gotta catchem all.
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Apparently I missed the Big Conversation here, but that's never stopped me before.
If there's one thing I've learned about Education in general, it's that the real value in it is rarely in the actual information you are ostensibly there to learn. I went to a private Christian school K-12, for example. While some of what I was taught is still important, these are what I look back on as the most important lessons I learned there:
- You don't "teach them a lesson" by refusing to do the work if you disagree. You confirm whatever they want to think about you.
- It's possible to completely hide an ideological disagreement and make someone think you agree.
- The best insults are the ones that are not perceived by their target.
- Sometimes what you have to do just sucks, but you come out on top if you excel in spite of that.
- Administrators are out to protect their own jobs first.
- The appearance of propriety is usually all you need.
- Sometimes people in authority do not know everything, but you should not challenge their authority if you have to point this out.
I don't expect to use Calculus ever again in my life, but the experience of surviving that AP class on sheer willpower is something I'll draw on forever. I'm also a non-traditional thinker; I learned study methods and project management in high school that worked for me, and this was important in college.
I went to a big state school right out of high school -- I was going to be an architect! I actually found the work there pretty easy, as most of what was in the general courses was a repeat for me. I went from a tiny school where the teachers and administration knew me, my siblings, and my parents to a huge school where I was lucky if the teacher recognized my face by the end of the quarter (for the big courses, anyway). I took my first architecture course and realized the work itself was not at all what I thought it was, and really wasn't enjoyable in the least. I ended up concentrating on core classes and as electives I took any 101 class that fit my schedule, and eventually one caught my passion and I ended up majoring in it. I have a degree in Geography that's done nothing for me professionally, but I wouldn't trade how I see the world for an MBA and a job I hate. What I learned in college:
- When the people in charge don't know who you are, you're the only one responsible for how well you do.
- If you're not being challenged, invent your own challenge.
- Mom isn't going to wake you up or write an excuse note if you oversleep.
- Once the police are involved, it doesn't matter what you think happened.
- Eating fast food every day really sucks after a while.
- Make sure what you do matches your superior's standards, because they do not always mesh with yours.
- If you can't "have fun" without involving alcohol or drugs, you need to reevaluate your activities.
- Double-check dates and times, because there is no do-over.
- Never give anyone a reason to suspect you of anything you do not want to be suspected of.
- Everything is a tradeoff. Make sure you know the consequences of every decision.
- It is vitally important that you recognize if you are unhappy, and figure out why. Then, fix it.
What I was taught in college hasn't served me as well as what I learned in college, and I imagine it's possible to learn most of these lessons at any college. And just as advice regarding your first relationship doesn't make sense until you're out of it, I understand that a lot of what's in this thread doesn't look applicable. So I guess I'll end with the most important thing I learned through my education:
Things never seem as bad as they felt when you were embroiled in them. All you can do is all you can do -- worrying does not make you do any better, and it makes you feel worse.
That works in a lot of situations.