The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Sports & Leisure => Topic started by: melack on July 18, 2006, 09:56:57 pm
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I pose this question to the Charlotte Hornets / Montreal Expos / Cleveland Browns / Philadelphia A's fans of the world. Okay, not that last one, unless you're 100 years old. Has your team ever moved? It looks like my favorite team is about to. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2522944) Everyone knows how well the OKC Hornets experiment worked this past year, and with the PR disaster it would be for the Hornets to abandon New Orleans full time, it looks as though OKC and their highly profitable fans have a vacancy for a basketball team in a few years. Put two and two together and it looks like my beloved Sonics are on the move when their Arena lease expires in 4 years. Have any of you ever been through this kind of thing before? Were you able to continue following your team? Is that even possible from 2,000 miles and one bitter break-up away? Should I just forget the NBA all together and start following English Premier League soccer?
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The Browns example is a bad one because the franchise was so storied. The fans put up such an uproar that the name, colors, logos and brands all stayed in Cleveland while Mr Modell took the business to Baltimore. We got our team back a few years later and for almost everyone, it's like the 'Team' never left...just the owner and some of the players, I think only one or two may still be playing there.
It was traumatic but the fans did such a good job of organizing and fighting that it turned out well.
Don't the Sonics have the awesome Sasquatch that does dunks? You GOTTA keep that around.
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Minus the past five years, the Sonics have a storied history as well. They've won a title, been to the finals several times, and for several years during the mid to late 90s were the most dominant team behind Michael Jordan's bulls. That might not be as storied as the Browns, but it's not like they're an empty franchise.
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But you're right about the city as a whole not being quite as rabid as Cleveland in trying to maintain their legacy.
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I recall when they were basketball BIONIC!
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That's why I'm a college basketball fan. It's not like the University of Kentucky is going to up and move out of state.
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Everybody seems to hate the NBA these days and, quite frankly, I can't blame them for it. I've somehow managed to keep following the league despite its glaring faults, though. But you're right, at least UW is never going to leave Seattle. Oh, sweet Huskies.
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T-teams can MOVE? Do they just change their name to the place they are moving to? This is greatly puzzling. I am used to teams sticking around long enough for pointless rivalries to form between different areas of London.
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It's America, man. They don't care about loyalty or fan base or rivalries or tradition. They only care about the money.
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The Ollers don't even get a mention, man that is Harsh.
~Paul
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Should I just forget the NBA all together and start following English Premier League soccer?
Yes.
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A good hello to the Westsider.
I'm over in Spokane. I escape in 30 days.
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Not to be an ass or anything, but if you could consider my team the OKC Hornets, then I suppose I will have to go through this kind of thing in a year or two. Fortunately, I will have the Sonics to ease my pain.
Seriously though, sorry. Most people here don't even give a shit about the NBA and just want any pro team they can get to improve the city. I guess that is how it is everywhere, though. Also, Oklahoma fucked over you a couple years ago when you got the semi bust Desmon Mason. Luckily he is playing okay now, with the Hornets.
One final thing. One of my friends can get free suite tickets to all Hornets games, which is a nice thing to have for a college students, if only for the free booze.
Also, yes, you should start following EPL. I started a couple years ago and now don't care at all about any leagues in the United States, except the MLB.
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The Ollers don't even get a mention, man that is Harsh.
~Paul
I'm glad the Oilers are in Nashville. HA!
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Don't forget the Lakers. When they started out, they were not in Los Angeles - they were near LAKES.
You gotta love the teams that DON'T change their names appropriately.
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I like the Utah Jazz misnomer better, if only for the racial/religious implications.
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Why don't you just watch the team that's the most entertaining instead of the one that happens the practice the closest to you?
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Why don't you just watch the team that's the most entertaining instead of the one that happens the practice the closest to you?
I'm not sure if this really applies, but I'd still support England (and I'm sure many of you would support your own countries similarly) even if Brazil were the most entertaining team by miles. Maybe it is the same on a local scale.
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I'm not sure if this really applies, but I'd still support England (and I'm sure many of you would support your own countries similarly) even if Brazil were the most entertaining team by miles. Maybe it is the same on a local scale.
But it's not like any of the players or coaches are actually from that town. They're just going to where the money is. Your national team is at least made up of people actually from that nation.
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You root for the local team because players and winning records come and go, but geography stays the same. Well, except in this case. :'(
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You gotta love the teams that DON'T change their names appropriately.
Like the Utah Jazz. The whitest city in the country has a team called the Jazz.
~Paul
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I used to wear a watermelon on my head and go to Rams games until that bitch haued ass for the ca$h. Good thing I had a youthful attachement to the Steelers to tide me through.
Heh. I'm REALLY glad the Rams moved to St Louis. I get to see games now. Thanks Georgia!
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I used to wear a watermelon on my head and go to Rams games.
That was you?
~Paul
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I'm of the belief that a team doesn't have true "fans" until they have been in one place long enough for children to have grown up going to games with their parents and then take their own children to games. There is nothing you have to prove to the second generation of fans in order to have their loyalty -- it's all they've known since childhood.
I'm from Birmingham originally, and we don't have any professional teams aside from the White Sox AA affiliate which no one cares about (except for when Michael Jordan was learning he can't hit a curveball there). Most of our pro teams have just died with the ill-fated leagues that brought them there in the first place:
- The Americans of the WFL played one year (won the title!), changed names to the Vulcans, and were declared the champions of the league's final year when there wasn't enough money to hold playoffs.
- The Alabama Vulcans joined the AFA in its third year and folded after one. That league stayed around long enough for the Alabama Magic to form, play one season, and fold without actually paying the players.
- The USFL came to town the next year with the Birmingham Stallions, which lasted three seasons before the league imploded horribly, having spent a lot of money that it didn't actually get from the networks.
- The NFL made the Birmingham Fire one of the founding franchises of their WLAF, and then moved it to Germany two years later when they decided that all the teams probably needed to play on the same fuck*ng continent. I'm not sure Europeans actually care about the leage, but the NFL has boohoodles of money so it's staying around.
- When the CFL tried to expand into the USA, we got the Birmingham Barracudas for a season before they realized Americans don't care about Canadian leagues, and the CFL did not have the boohoodles of cash necessary to support it until we did. I am told they are in posession of approximately one third of a boohoodle. Is this true?
- The XFL had the Birmingham
Blast Thunderbolts (the name changed when someone realized the Birmingham Blast was a church bombing that was a pivotal event in the civil rights movement) for one year, but the league collapsed under the weight of Vince McMahon's steroid-fueled ego.
It's really nice to have a team that is local to you. Even if you don't go to the games, you probably know someone who did. You're reasonably certain you can strike up a conversation with strangers that relates to the team, even if it's "How 'bout those Eagles, eh?" Only twenty years ago it was very difficult to find information about teams that weren't local, because "sports news" was basically 5 minutes on the TV news and two pages in the paper. Now, if you have a satellite dish you can watch just about every game played by any team in any league if you want. I like the Packers and the Bengals for no real reason, but I can follow them just as well as someone in their city from whereever I happen to be. It's kind of cool.
As for the original post... I kind of doubt the Blazers in particular will be leaving, because just about every team there is has done the "we're leaving once our lease is up" dance and most stay where they are. That said, basketball teams are also the most mobile franchises in our three major sports, so what do I know? I just don't get how, say, Charlotte was so horrible for the Hornets but is suddenly just fine for the Bobcats, or how the Oilers drew under 10,000 for their last games in Houston but suddenly everyone loves the Texans forever. Eh.
Also: the NBA could probably support another team or three (to get it to even numbers), but they're better off going slow rather than expand recklessly like the NHL did. I'm betting if the Hornets return to New Orleans there will be an expansion team in Oklahoma City relatively soon.
PS: I am sorry about the rambling.
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The Oilers only saw low numbers after it was announced they were leaving. Everybody loved the Oilers, but hated their prick of an owner.
~Paul
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As for the original post... I kind of doubt the Blazers in particular will be leaving, because just about every team there is has done the "we're leaving once our lease is up" dance and most stay where they are. That said, basketball teams are also the most mobile franchises in our three major sports, so what do I know? I just don't get how, say, Charlotte was so horrible for the Hornets but is suddenly just fine for the Bobcats, or how the Oilers drew under 10,000 for their last games in Houston but suddenly everyone loves the Texans forever. Eh.
Also: the NBA could probably support another team or three (to get it to even numbers), but they're better off going slow rather than expand recklessly like the NHL did. I'm betting if the Hornets return to New Orleans there will be an expansion team in Oklahoma City relatively soon.
PS: I am sorry about the rambling.
First of all, it is the Super Sonics not the Blazers.
The Sonics were bought by an Oklahoma City businessman. Reportably, the Sonics have lost 60 million dollars recently because of a poor lease that runs out in 2010. Pretty much, unless the Hornets stay, the Seattle Super Sonics will be moving to Oklahoma City.
At least this is what I am lead to believe from Oklahoma City local news. However, one of the only good things about living here is the horrendous local news, so who knows.
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You root for the local team because players and winning records come and go, but geography stays the same.
Dang, this answer almost makes sense. Except, couldn't you change who you root for depending on who is most entertaining in a given year? You don't, like, keep buying someone's books or recordings if you decide they aren't any good anymore, right?
Never mind. Cort and I will never get it.
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Dang, this answer almost makes sense. Except, couldn't you change who you root for depending on who is most entertaining in a given year? You don't, like, keep buying someone's books or recordings if you decide they aren't any good anymore, right?
Never mind. Cort and I will never get it.
Wombat basically thinks exactly what I do.* I'd rather watch the two most entertaining teams (probably the best teams, but not necessarily) play than watch say, Redskins vs. Cardinals just because it happens to be local. I guess this is why I stick to watching scripted entertainment. A.J. Styles is never boring.
*Although I think I'd buy any fiction Vonnegut released no matter how shitty I heard it was.
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See, the only sort-of sport that I sort of follow is figure skating. I was sort of glad when I got interested in it, because it made me understand the rooting for sports thing a little. It was always totally mysterious to me that people could get so excited when a team won or lost. I mean, it's not something you accomplished yourself, and you don't even know the guys. So what's the big deal? But once there were skaters who I really liked, I understood how you could care.
But there is a big difference. In skating, I root for the person who I think is most entertaining. Even if they are, like, Canadian, you know?
Now I was thinking - it is true that if there are a bunch of skaters I've never heard of, and I find out that one comes from my town, I will pay a little more attention to that person to see if she is entertaining. But if she isn't, I don't care if she wins. And come to think of it it is the same with books - I will read something because the author lives around the corner or in Baltimore. But if the book isn't good, I won't buy another one. I'll read the guy from New Orleans instead.
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I only follow pro curling.
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Reportably, the Sonics have lost 60 million dollars recently because of a poor lease that runs out in 2010.
It's able to be reported, yes. The Sonics haven't "lost" $60 million as much as they didn't "earn" that money via things like parking, concessions, and other side action that other NBA teams were wise enough to secure. Don't blame the lease, blame the dumbasses who agreed to it.
I grew up 35 miles south of Cleveland and I was still living at home when the Browns franchise defected to Baltimore. The outrage was palpable among both fans and civic leaders. Had the Indians not been dominating the American League at the time, I'm fairly sure Cleveland's unemployment rate would have plummeted as a result of all the people who killed themselves due to depression and left their jobs for other people to take. I actually saw people who spray painted their own cars with messages of hate for Art Modell - lots of "Traitor Art" and "Modell loves Money" type jive. The thing that stung the worst was Ozzie Newsome going with him and the eventual success of the Ravens. I haven't cared about the Browns since "they" came back. It was a nice gesture to let the city keep the name, colors, record book, etc.
People forget that there were rumors the Indians would leave town as well and set up shop in the Tampa/St. Pete area. "Major League" is not a work of pure fiction, friends. But then the Gateway project was approved and we got Jacobs Field. Too bad the Cavs moved as well, because their new arena is already out of date and just barely of higher quality than Ohio State's new basketball barn. The Richfield Coliseum was a great place to watch basketball, hockey AND indoor soccer. To me, taking the Cavs, Lumberjacks and Force out of Richfield was more personally affecting than taking the Browns out of Cleveland because it was a quick 20-minute drive along back-country roads to get to the Coliseum whereas downtown Cleveland was a 45-minute odyssey into unfamiliar territory. When you're 17 years old, a move like that basically puts your team on the other side of the continent.
Between the relocation of teams and the frequent transfer of the athletes themselves, Seinfeld was right: We're really just cheering for laundry.
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I think I'd buy any fiction Vonnegut released no matter how shitty I heard it was.
Hear, hear!
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I grew up 35 miles south of Cleveland and I was still living at home when the Browns franchise defected to Baltimore. The outrage was palpable among both fans and civic leaders. Had the Indians not been dominating the American League at the time, I'm fairly sure Cleveland's unemployment rate would have plummeted as a result of all the people who killed themselves due to depression and left their jobs for other people to take. I actually saw people who spray painted their own cars with messages of hate for Art Modell - lots of "Traitor Art" and "Modell loves Money" type jive. The thing that stung the worst was Ozzie Newsome going with him and the eventual success of the Ravens. I haven't cared about the Browns since "they" came back. It was a nice gesture to let the city keep the name, colors, record book, etc.
So do you have Modell's stores up there or did people boycott them due to rage over the moving of the team?
[edit: dammit, now I have the "gotta go to Mo's" jingle in my head]
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See, the only sort-of sport that I sort of follow is figure skating.
Too bad it's not a sport...
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Yeah, but if it's not a sport, what is it? It makes your head hurt just to think about it.
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So do you have Modell's stores up there or did people boycott them due to rage over the moving of the team?
No, but we do have Dick's, which pretty much sums up how people feel about Modell.
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Yeah, but if it's not a sport, what is it? It makes your head hurt just to think about it.
An athletic competition. Personally I think sports have objective scoring. Anything with subjective scoring (figure skating, cheerleading, half-pipe) is an athletic competition.
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I play chess, and am always annoyed when people refer to it as a "sport" rather than a "game."
I mean, it's more intellectually and physically stimulating than most games, but I still don't see how chess is a sport.
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I play chess, and am always annoyed when people refer to it as a "sport" rather than a "game."
I mean, it's more intellectually and physically stimulating than most games, but I still don't see how chess is a sport.
Sport can be defined as an activity that people compete in, so I suppose competitive chess is a "sport". In some peoples eyes. Maybe.
... No, you're right.
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An athletic competition. Personally I think sports have objective scoring. Anything with subjective scoring (figure skating, cheerleading, half-pipe) is an athletic competition.
But if you asked me to define 'sport' I would say it was.... an athletic competition.
No, stop, this way lies madness. Hey, how about those evil people who relocate sports teams!
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Here in KC, we're building an arena (http://www.sprintcenter.com/) for some NBA or NHL team to be named at a later date. I'm sure our civic leaders aren't happy that the Sonics are going to be moving to OKC. At least we have an Arena Football team to use the new arena once it's finished next year, but it seems like we're spending an awful lot of money to not have several teams using the Arena.
I moved to Houston just a year or two before the Oilers left, but I was still pretty pissed off by the whole thing. It is nice that Houston has a team again. (Well, sort of a team.)
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people here are still bitter about the Hornets moving. And now we have the Bobcats? and michael jordan owns part of them? I don't know.
My friend who is in the Air Force now still has a Charlotte Hornets sticker on his car. It was pickles on the parade for them, 'cause his mom worked for the Hornets in some capacity, so she had to move to New Orleans. Without them. It was kind of a shitty deal for that whole family, her commuting back and forth on occaisional weekends and such.
Anyway, yeah. It sucks when teams move. Not that I really follow sports atall.
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But if you asked me to define 'sport' I would say it was.... an athletic competition.
No, stop, this way lies madness. Hey, how about those evil people who relocate sports teams!
Well "sports" are a subset of "athletic competitions." Like how squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
Wow, I haven't heard that particular metaphor since like 3rd grade. I now have a sudden desire to have M.U.S.C.L.E. Men battle each other on top of my Transformers lunch box.
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Yeah, but if it's not a sport, what is it? It makes your head hurt just to think about it.
I've thought about this a lot and got into a lot of discussions about how golf is not a sport. (For golf to be a sport, we have to consider golfers - picture Tom Weiskopf or John Daly - athletes. I can't do it!)
Activities require more skill then physicality and intellect. (figure skating, golf)
Sports require more physicality than intellect and skill. (Boxing, track and field)
Games require more intellect than skill and physicality. (Chess, Scrabble)
Now, it's true that in all these realms the general level of physicality among those competing continues to climb. To classify them you have to look at the average person engaged in the game/sport/activity, not those participiating at the highest levels.
Most things require a combination of the three (especially team sports) but one of the three usually prevails. Baseball is hard to classify, for example. Fielders mainly use skills, pitchers and batters use a combination of physicality and skill.
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I can't see putting figure skating in the same category as golf as far as physical prowess. Those women are Amazons. Don't let the outfits fool you.
Golf would sure be more interesting if it were set to music and played in tutus, though.
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Golf would sure be more interesting if it were set to music and played in tutus, though.
If you could mix this with shots of bourbon and maybe pie throwing, I would actually attend and/or compete in this kind of a "sport".
maybe a little drunken golf carting.
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I can't see putting figure skating in the same category as golf as far as physical prowess. Those women are Amazons. Don't let the outfits fool you.
Golf would sure be more interesting if it were set to music and played in tutus, though.
The point is, they weren't always. All partici(trousers) in competition are amazons now so you have to kind of adjust for that.
The real question is where do you put bodybuilding?
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In a sideshow tent.
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The point is, they weren't always. All partici(trousers) in competition are amazons now so you have to kind of adjust for that.
The real question is where do you put bodybuilding?
In with beauty pageants, I'd say. What about lumberjack competitions?
I hadn't actually heard that a few of these teams had moved. Coming from Minnesota, you learn that sports teams only break your heart, and then threaten to leave if you don't buy them things. If I'd wanted that, I would have just dated girls.
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I've thought about this a lot and got into a lot of discussions about how golf is not a sport. (For golf to be a sport, we have to consider golfers - picture Tom Weiskopf or John Daly - athletes. I can't do it!)
John Kruk said himself, "I am not an athlete, I am a baseball player." So yea, it is a pretty hard line to draw between sports and athletic competition.
Activities require more skill then physicality and intellect. (figure skating, golf)
Sports require more physicality than intellect and skill. (Boxing, track and field)
Games require more intellect than skill and physicality. (Chess, Scrabble)
Most things require a combination of the three (especially team sports) but one of the three usually prevails. Baseball is hard to classify, for example. Fielders mainly use skills, pitchers and batters use a combination of physicality and skill.
Baseball is very hard to classify in your system, but harder, maybe, is football. I don't really like the game, but I have to say it is the ultimate test of all three of these skills (well, maybe boxing as well). Depending on the position you must master at least two of these. The quarterback must be reasonably physical, but hell of smart and skilled. Receivers and running backs must be the same, but more physical (fast). The linemen must be physical (strong), have intellect (know what holes to open for the running back, blocking schemes, etc.) and skill (the actual ability to block the defender). They same goes on defense. The linebackers are basically the quarterbacks, the defensive backfield the receivers and the defensive linemen the linemen.
This got me thinking, where do you draw the line between skill and physical ability. Most of the time one must have the physical ability to master the skill (or in bodybuiding, the other way around), most athletic activities are a mixture of both.
And I think bodybuilding is a mix between skill and physical ability. The skill is just really easy to master, compared to the physical ability one must have.
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The real question is where do you put bodybuilding?
On the beach! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38817438@N00/46215143/)
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If you could mix this with shots of bourbon and maybe pie throwing, I would actually attend and/or compete in this kind of a "sport".
maybe a little drunken golf carting.
I remember like 10 years ago seeing Speed Golf on TV. In addition to the regular rules you get 1 stroke for each minute over 30 (for 18 holes). The caddy may use a golf cart but the golfer can't. Throwing of clubs to/from a moving cart is encouraged.
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I remember Speed Golf and found it hilarious. It's like cross country skiing, but with golf instead of shotguns.
Chess is actually pretty physical even if it doesn't look it. Before tournaments I'd have to physically prepare for a few weeks and I was drained after any of them.
The best part about playing chess or concentrating really hard on anything is that I would pee a LOT. If you're having trouble with fluid retension, I would highly recommend chess as a possible cure. You have to play a long game and do a lot of mental analysis, though. Blitz (speed) chess doesn't put you in the same kind of fugue state that the standard three minutes per move (average) does. It's hard to concentrate on anything for up to six hours straight (two hours per side for the first forty moves, then one hour total each player after that, provided the game lasts that long).
Get into time pressure and you can really feel the physical strain of the game.
I still wouldn't call it a sport, though.
In the meantime, no team has moved into or out of Philly in my lifetime, but I still don't consider teams that didn't exist when I was a kid collecting baseball cards to be "real teams."
Rockies, Marlins, wha?
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Hey Jough -
As a resident of the greater Philly area (as far as I know), do you know if there exists a quick and/or easy way to get from the 30th Street Amtrak station to the new Phillies ballpark?
I suppose I coulda PM'd you with this one but that "Harrison Ford" guy has scared me away from that end of the pool for a little while.
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I don't know about directly from 30th St. station (although you probably can do it from there) but if you take one of the regional rail lines two stops up to Market East, you can take the Broad St. Line right down to the stadia. It drops you off in front of the ball park.
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Thanks, Jough.
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I suppose I coulda PM'd you with this one but that "Harrison Ford" guy has scared me away from that end of the pool for a little while.
What, not a fan of huge uncut Asian jerkboys?
Anyways, a few thoughts: I guess the Sonics move isn't as much of a foregone conclusion as I thought it was yesterday. It's still looking likely, but the new owner has come out and said he'd like to keep the team here if they get a nice arena built. The chances aren't good, but there's a chance.
As far as the sport/non-sport goes, it's a murky distinction. For example, ESPN is really fond of calling skateboarding and snowboarding "sports" during their X-Games circus. In fact, they go as far as to brand them "Action Sports". Me? I grew up with these two activities, and I'm pretty reluctant to call them sports, let alone AXXCTION SPORTZZZ. Much as I love basketball and baseball (and to a much, much lesser extent, football), I think skateboarding and snowboarding are far too spontaneous, personalized and creative of activities--while generally completely devoid of competition, aside form pusing oneself to improve--to label as sports. In sum, I have no idea what the hell I'm saying. The distinction means different things to different people.
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I think that when there is not head-to-head or head-to-clock competition for the win, but rather subjective judging (like in figure skating or gymnastics) I have more problems calling it 'sport'. So downhill skiiing is a sport, but freestyle aerials is not.
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I think that when there is not head-to-head or head-to-clock competition for the win, but rather subjective judging (like in figure skating or gymnastics) I have more problems calling it 'sport'. So downhill skiiing is a sport, but freestyle aerials is not.
Indeed. But what about drivers? I guess there's some kind of endurance involved and definitely skill for things like motorcross.
Although I refuse to acknowledge the largest race circuit in the US until they change their name or revert their rules so that the name is no longer a lie.
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Equestrian is a sport, but only for the hoss. The jockey/rider is little more than a passenger.