The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Sports & Leisure => Topic started by: Asherdan on August 22, 2006, 04:31:04 pm
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(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--k5m636Zb--/m5dvkzj95cd6xl0k4nnx.gif)
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I don't really want to shoot anything that's alive* with a real gun. Last summer though, I got to tear up a couple soda cans with a .22 rifle, and that was pretty good. First time I have ever shot anything. I wasn't prepared for the underwhealming experienced of shooting a .22.
It just makes a little "pop" noise. I guess I had expected the world to dim, the surface of the earth to crack, and the noise of angry gods.
(* That doesn't include paintball... I do enjoy going out to the woods, and being a knucklehead with a couple ladies and fellows. I do also need to point out, that I don't suffer from the SOLDIER OF FORTUNE malady that seems to effect many other a fellow my age whom what plays paintball.)
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I don't really want to shoot anything that's alive* with a real gun. Last summer though, I got to tear up a couple soda cans with a .22 rifle, and that was pretty good. First time I have ever shot anything. I wasn't prepared for the underwhealming experienced of shooting a .22.
It just makes a little "pop" noise. I guess I had expected the world to dim, the surface of the earth to crack, and the noise of angry gods.
(* That doesn't include paintball... I do enjoy going out to the woods, and being a knucklehead with a couple ladies and fellows. I do also need to point out, that I don't suffer from the SOLDIER OF FORTUNE malady that seems to effect many other a fellow my age whom what plays paintball.)
In other words you thought you were perfoming a summon in any given Final Fantasy game.
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Totally. The mountain dew can just fell over... and I didn't even get any gil.
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F*cking random drops eh?
A friend of mine has been visiting a shooting range lately and I think I might join him. I don't realsitically think I'll ever bein a situation where the ability to shoot something will be important but hell it might be fun times.
I'm not huge on the hunting thing myself (though I've never been) but it just seems like a bit of a weird thing to do for fun.
That said I don't mind giraffeing but that's probably because a) I'm no good at it so any giraffe I actually catch have it coming and b) freshly caught giraffe tastes so goddamn good.
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That said I don't mind giraffeing but that's probably because a) I'm no good at it so any giraffe I actually catch have it coming and b) freshly caught giraffe tastes so goddamn good.
Never wisen a trout, or give a snapper an even break.
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Guns terrify me, but I am all about conquering my fears so I don't become a timid old person, so when the Technical Staff's company had an outing to go skeet shooting, I decided I should go. Unfortunately when we got there I started to come down with a migraine. But at that point I was pretty much stuck there for the duration, so I went ahead and was going to try it. The first thing I learned was that when you shoot that kind of gun, you put it on your shoulder and lovingly rest your head against it, and then, something explodes inside it right next to your head.
It was seriously not a good idea at the time. I spent the rest of the afternoon pushing the nice quiet button that sends the poor innocent skeets to their doom.
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I hate guns.
But love firing them.
And I have no problem with hunting, aside from it being done in the dean at 5 in the morning when my window is wide open.
I do have somewhat of a problem with the whole British hunt thing, in that a large group of people go out to laugh smugly and shoot pheasants, while poor people walk miles and miles beating for not much money at all, but none of that is an issue about hunting per se.
While I've fired a few guns, it's not something you get a lot of chances to do over here unless you know farmers, and I don't anymore. That said, I wouldn't say it's something I sorely miss, though I was rather good at it. Even shooting rats out on my friends farm with a .22 when I was a teenager was quite satisfying. But then getting there on the quad bikes was way more fun.
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It just makes a little "pop" noise. I guess I had expected the world to dim, the surface of the earth to crack, and the noise of angry gods.
May I suggest trying a 12 gauge shotgun next time. Infinitely more satisfying.
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Where we lived in PA schools closed for the first day of deer and doe seasons. But I was never into hunting/giraffeing/leaving the house.
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I have only gone hunting once. One of my awesome boyfriends used to go ptarmigan hunting up here all the time, and giraffeing too. He would always bring ptarmigan feathers and stuff for my kitties to play with. I think I've mentioned this before (http://touamb.com/index.php/topic,1682.msg34850/topicseen.html#msg34850)?
Anyway, I hate hunting animals. I felt awful about going ptarmigan hunting that one time, and I remember telling the story to some friends. My friend Lynn said, "Well, did you guys get the other one?" I said, "What? No, we only shot one..."
She replied, "Ptarmigan mate for liiiiiiiiife..." and my lower lip started quavering and tears came to my eyes as I realized that we killed The Missus and her poor widower husband was probably beside himself with ptarmigan-grief (or vice versa, I don't know how to tell the difference between boy ptarmigan and girl ptarmigan, and anyway I was crying when he actually shot the ptarmigan and did not get close enough to be any help with picking up the dead bird). I am a bad predator, I do better with delicious plants and fruit and stuff like that.
I am all for going to the range and shooting targets, though. that is hella fun. Plus clay pigeons are fuckers! You should kill as many of those as possible. </eddie izzard>
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May I suggest trying a 12 gauge shotgun next time. Infinitely more satisfying.
Noted!
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When I was younger, my best friend and his father were very into guns, loading their own cartridges (is that the right term?) and all that. I enjoyed shooting, and went hunting a while, but basically for me it came down to two problems:
1) Hunting happens when it is very early and very cold
2) Having a dead animal is not a reward worth being up that early
In recent years I've added:
3) I'm not willing to invest the time and expense to keep my skills up to par, and therefore a weapon in my hands is just as dangerous to me as to anyone else.
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1) Hunting happens when it is very early and very cold
2) Having a dead animal is not a reward worth being up that early
Indeed. I have frequently had to suffer both 'very early' and 'very cold' for live animals but it's definitely not worth it for dead ones. Or for most other things I can think of.
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But Ash, you can sleep late and buy dead animals in a nice climate-controlled store. They've even already cut them up for you!
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I am not a very good omnivore. I would rather just buy some vegetables at the store and make some butternut squash spring rolls, or some daal (Indian lentil soup).
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It feels more honest to me to deal with getting the pig to give up his delicious pork chops directly rather than hiring a middle man. I have the equipment to handload for my rifles. I build and test my own cartridges, go out and find, stalk and kill game animals in an environment in which they are well ahead of me in equipment and familiarity. Then I do my own butchering and toting and wrapping and freezing.
And when I put Fr. Oink or Daddy Bambi or Bugs to the BBQ or skillet I get to remember the day and the way that meal happened, and it gives me great pleasure and makes me feel darn grateful for the day. Then I eat the fucker up yum.
It floats my boat.
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See, I guess I don't mind guns that much. I grew up on 64 acres in the "country", so you would think I should probably like guns. Well, I don't. I have never shot one before. Basically, I think if you guys get guns, then I should get drugs. At least my thing has a purpose besides killing.
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I, personally, am pretty scared of guns. I understand why people would have them, I guess. But I would never own one.
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I get hunting if you're going to eat it but around these parts folks tend to hunt rabbits and kangaroos and wild boar and such just for the hell of it (for all their cuteness kangaroos are quite a pest in some parts) and that just is kind of empty to me since the victory of a man with a giant goddamn boomstick over a basically moronic animal is all you get out of it if you're not going to get a tasty meal.
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I, personally, am pretty scared of guns. I understand why people would have them, I guess. But I would never own one.
That's how I felt...until I was stalked. Then I decided that I wanted to get a gun and get damned friendly with how to use one. I want to be able to pull it out from under my bed in the middle of the night when I'm half-dead on pain meds and be able to hit someone who's breaking into my bedroom window or walking in my bedroom door.
Then a good friend of mine took me to the shooting range, got me a .357, and the rest -- as they say -- is history. Some quality one-on-one time with someone you trust implicitly and who has an unwavering commitment to gun safety makes all the difference in the world. With his help I'm a pretty damn good shot at close range.
I need to order some targets from Cabela's in BULK. My favorite is the black kind that has a green layer beneath, so it's really easy to see where you've hit. They're also really expensive up here.
There are few things more satisfying than busting out a firearm and blasting some targets. "OMG IT'S HEADED STRAIGHT FOR US!!" is our favorite line as we shoot. The best is going to a private range outdoors where there are few other people. I went to an indoor range in Denver once and it suuuuuucked. It was dirty, disgusting, noisy as hell... it was terrible. Outdoors is where it's at.
I have to be careful, though... since he pours his own bullets, I always collect my spent shell casings and put them in my opposite pocket. I bet that one of these days I'll be going through airport security and get my grubby li'l paws swabbed, and then I'll have to explain that I was at the shooting range as they handcuff me.
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Love the name of thoses things...Shoot-n-see.
Might check Midway USA and Brownell's for bulk items too, if they'll ship to your remote outpost. Go ahead and order a Lee anniversary kit and a three die carbide set and a Franklin dial gauge and 500 laser cast 158g FP's and a pound of Unique and some CCI 300's. The you're all set for evenings of fun. Read Lee's manual first, then go forth.
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since he pours his own bullets,
I have no idea what this could possibly mean so I have two mental pictures. In one, he is at a bar filling you a glass full of ammunition. In the other, you are in your kitchen melting metal and pouring it into molds, perhaps also some little heart-shaped chocolate molds too just for fun.
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I have no idea what this could possibly mean so I have two mental pictures. In one, he is at a bar filling you a glass full of ammunition. In the other, you are in your kitchen melting metal and pouring it into molds, perhaps also some little heart-shaped chocolate molds too just for fun.
You literally melt lead and pour it into moulds, I guess. I've never been there while he's done it. I'm guessing that you fill the end of the casing with gunpowder in specific amounts, and then the lead goes in the top.
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Uhh, kinda #2 like Linnea said Wombat. You smelt your own mix of lead, tin and antimony depending on the hardness of the material you want and pour it off into molds to form bullets. There's a whole buncha processing that goes on before and after but I'll spare y'all the gory details. Except to say that lead poisoning is a real concern and basically why I buy commercial hardcast instead of making my own at this point.
ALSO: I could see engraving a mold cavity so it shapes a bullet with a little heart on each nose. A box of those would make such a good V-Day gift to the right gal.
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ALSO: I could see engraving a mold cavity so it shapes a bullet with a little heart on each nose. A box of those would make such a good V-Day gift to the right gal.
Fuck yes, dude. You get a tiny can for that. I would totally melt if the right fella or lady gave me a box of rounds like that. Hella rad.
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Education. Um, I think.
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I'm actually spending tomorrow at the range sighting in my new rifle and scope. I've done target shooting as a hobby on and off since I was maybe 13. I don't think I could do hunting though. Dragging some dead deer/bear/bald eagle back to my car would just be annoying and who wants to clean up THAT mess?
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My most recent work. I've just finished working up my own CX2 handloads and am having a little fun with my Marlin 1895G in 45/70 Govt on the 100 yard line.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/402600859_76e1519fa2.jpg)
Basically a hunting rifle, I can get good groupings if I am a little more patient and let the barrel cool down after the first two rounds. I didn't wait long enough and that's why I've got the high right POI shift. Nice to see the first two are on top of each other though.
So what's your rig setup and what distances/target types are you working with. Any competition?
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To be honest, I am pretty much Batman on the topic of guns. Can't stand the sight of them. Would rather work toward a future where none are needed than go around admitting that there are probably some situations where they are needed tools.
As I said in that thread about traumatic experiences, my cousin died basically because of how easy it was for a seventeen-year-old kid with the clear warning signs of a schizoid meltdown to get his hands on a shotgun. I'm not rational on the subject and I pretty much admit it.
The irony, of course, is that my dad worked at the Remington Arms gun factory for nearly thirty years and pretty much knows everything about guns anyone could ever know.
It was the only good paying job for someone with only a year of community college and baby-me had to be fed... so he worked there, working the line when the economy was bad and working in the R&D department when the economy was good.
He was such a crack shot that he was sent down to FBI headquarters a few times to show off the weapons to government buyers and so on and some of his co-workers tried to pressure him into trying out for the shooting sport portions of the Olympics.
But he always said "I don't like guns, I pretend I'm making blenders."
After Alan died, he said that when he found out he wasn't killed with a Remington, it was one of the biggest reliefs of his life. Like if he had known he had... designed the ergonomics of the trigger or... created the process of the powder coating... on the gun that killed his eldest nephew, he would've never been able to live with himself.
My pop retired young from a heart condition and we are pretty sure it was from the harsh chemicals he worked with at Remington but we'd have no way to prove it in court, of course. He's 52 and some days it's about all he can do to clean some dishes and feed the birds.
I'm pretty much not rational about guns.
There's a little voice in the back of my head that says that if I ever snap, I'm just gonna get a sledgehammer and start breaking into houses and destroying every gun I can find until someone killed me, under the thought that I would probably be saving other people's lives with that kind of suicide.
Christ. This is kind of dark and I don't mean to tramp on this thread but... uhm...
I dunno, the venting kind of made me feel better, I'm gonna hit "post" and...
Hope I don't come off like a total douchebag.
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lfm, I respect your position. My cousin was murdered when she was an MP in the military over some shit .22 handgun. The fug who did it took the handgun and tried to go kill more people for insurance money, including beating a father to death in front of his two-year-old son. The murderer got two death sentences and was executed in 1995.
You are correct in that many firearms have taken many lives. As the slogan goes, guns don't kill people, they just make it real easy. That being said, I am an advocate of gun control. It's TERRIBLE that your cousin was able to buy that gun. I really wish that he had been able to get help. I wish there had been some sort of way to prevent him from buying that gun. I think that some good things have come out of gun control, like the fact that many states have a waiting period before you can purchase a firearm.
Like I said, I figured that I would go through the rest of my life without ever touching a gun. Then I became a stalking victim.
Now I have a .357 and badass friends that I go to the range with. At last count I had about 500 rounds and 2 speedloaders for the revolver. My firefighter friends joke that they're going to hang back if there's ever a fire call at my house, which they should!
However, firearms are pretty much a way of life out here in rural Alaska. The natives go on seal hunts with rifles, not with harpoons. We have a bowling pin shoot every year at the shooting range where the best shots in town all get together. For me, there are few pleasures greater in life than drinking a diet Coke and watching your surrogate father-figure yelling at a bowling pin, "It's coming RIGHT FOR US!" and knocking down all 5 pins before his opponent hits one. Next year I'm going to participate in the pin shoot. Even if I don't hit any of them, it's fun to hang out with everyone.
Ash, I have a pretty basic setup. My surrogate-father Dan prints up targets and we staple them to pieces of driftwood or pallets that are at the shooting range. I have only fired a shotgun once, all my experience thus far has been with handguns. I have a Smith & Wesson 6-shot .357 revolver. I have hollowpoint Magnum bullets for here at the house, but I usually take the .38 special bullets that Dan pours for me to the range.
I usually just wear my glasses for eye protection, and I have earplugs because I don't have enough scratch lying around to buy cans (all my money goes to rent, kitty food, perfume, cosmetics, and internet costs, in that order). I usually start at close range, maybe 15-20 feet from the target. Dan's a ridiculous shot and he'll do all kinds of silly stuff, like shoot patterns into the targets, shoot while moving, set up empty shotgun shells on the edge of a piece of wood and shoot them from 40 feet with a handgun, etc. He and his wife are wonderful people, and he was the one who took me aside and asked me if I'd like to learn gun safety when all the court case bullshit blew up.
Fortunately for me, Mr. Stalker Asshole is thankfully too smart to mess around any more - he's on probation for felony charges and he does not want his pansy ass to get sent to the Big House.
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Well, it was my cousin's best friend who got the gun but...
Y'know, I just watched "The Prestige" and I think that prompted this line of thinking.
And there is this sort of... situation... where the only two people who could say exactly what happened there who admit to being there, my cousin and his killer and... one is dead and the other fell so deeply into schizophrenia that he claims to not remember.
It could have been that he flipped out and killed Al over a perceived slight with his girlfriend or... it could've been that Al was trying to stop him from killing himself and the gun went off or... it could've been any number of things.
Like, no one quite knows to this day. There was no trial because... in a small town when one kid is dead and the other is drooling in the psyche ward in Cooperstown, you tend to not press charges, everyone decides that looking into it would only make things worse and...
Questions are never answered, y'know.
This... thing from which I've never completely recovered, from which my father's entire family has never recovered, the loss of the kid I've spent my young manhood trying to live up to... it's like a magic trick that I never got to figure out.
In go two boys, out come a corpse and a lunatic. Shazam, y'know?
I dunno. Thanks for listening, anyway.
...but I will say that it is an interesting cultural disconnect.
When someone from anywhere else in the world says that someone is going to Cooperstown, it means that they were one of the best baseball players of all time.
When someone from where I grew up says that someone is going to Cooperstown, it means that they are going to Imogene Bassett Hospital in Cooperstown, the best hospital between Albany and Syracuse, where they are either going because they have gone mad or are going to die.
My mother's brother went there to go mad and so did Alan's killer. My grandpa died there and so did Alan. There are nights I wake up thinking that my father's heart condition has sent him to Cooperstown, out there on the other side of the world.
At the edge of gorgeous Lake Otswego, the lake the Natives called the Glimmerglass, where Abner Doubleday was nowhere near when it was claimed that baseball was invented.
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Guns don't kill people, bullets do!
And, sorry to hear about your alls tragic stories. I have lived a life of relatively few tragedies. One major one, but still, not like that.
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LFM, you need to spend less time writing messageboard posts and more time writing a book.
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So here goes.
I hate guns. I absolutely hate them. My dad, grandpa and uncle were all huge gun nuts. There was some occasional hunting, but mostly handguns. My dad was a major player at his gun club, made his own bullets and actually built the premier local shooting range. There were plenty of guns around - hand guns and riffles. They did nothing to protect me growing up. One awful night while out camping my best friend and I's tent was surrounded by teen boys who were planning to rape us. I single handedly saved both of us thanks to intensive self defense training. The use of guns, which were within attainable reach, would have only ruined things. I would have killed some stupid boys who learned their lesson very well without their heads exploding. I'll never forget my friend's father charging off into the woods with a rifle, seeking revenge, and just desperately not wanting things to be made worse by killing. Thankfully he didn't catch up with them.
While my dad was in the height of his gun obsession, his father went down to the basement to shoot himself dead in the stomach - not explainantion, no note. In his family, no one talks about their feelings - they go out and shoot a gun. My dad's gun obsession strangely didn't get any better after this. He struggles a lot with issues of "manhood" and is still trying to prove himself worth to his long dead father even now. After my grandfather shot himself is when my mother's own mental illness spiralled, and dad started taking jobs that took him out of the city for 20 days a month. Having a father who's dad shot himself, a mother off the deepend and me with my own problems - it was not the environment to have guns available. But the fucked up-ness of my life isn't the sort of thing caught by the (far more stringent) gun controle rules of my country. It was a dark night of the soul in my late teens when I thought about the handgun in my dad's sock drawer. I know for some people guns make them feel safe, but for me they are only a destructive and threatening force with no value. I've had other occasions where I've had to defend myself, and I can't imagine a single situation where a gun would've made things anything but worse. I personally have no situation in my mind where I would feel justified in killing another human being. Even in a "kill or be killed" situation I'm 1) fairly confident I could save myself and 2) wouldn't want to live with having killed someone else.
There are many times where people don't recognize that they should not have guns around. Having witnessed several situations where a person's mental state has deteriorated without them recognizing the severity of their situation, I oppose guns in the home.
As for hunting, I'm not opposed, but as a feat of sporting prowess, and as a tie to traditional Aboriginal hunting, I find bow hunting far more admirable. It's nice to not pick buck shot out of your venison also.
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I like a .30-.30.
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When I was 14 my favorite cousin was at her fast food job when three assholes busted in at closing time. They lined her and her three co-workers up on the floor while getting the evenings cash. After getting what there was to get, these nice fellows shot 'em all and left them to die. My cousin and two others did.
I don't blame guns.
I blame the dudes who were so twisted inside that it was a doable thing to shove innocent strangers into the floor and then execute them.
I kinda line it out like this:
Gun ownership carries a greater burden of responsibility because of the potential impact on others irresponsibility can cause. This burden of responsibility applies to manufacturers and dealers as well. Because of this, penalties for misuse/misdealing should also carry a great weight.
Those who show stupid ass behaviour get the hammer. Those who exhibit responsible behaviour do not lose possesion because of the actions of a minority of fucktards (or, if you want nice, the mistaken actions of those temporarily not in full control of their faculties).
I respect what others have shared here and do not intend to shit on your beliefs and opinions. We just disagree on what I think is a very basic level.
Some folk are comfortable with the concept of limiting peoples access to certain things (not just weaponry) in order to promote greater societal safety.
Some folk (this is my camp) are more comfortable with fewer legislative restrictions but greater penalties for abuse of this lack of restriction.
Feel free to change these statements up, add to 'em or tear me a new arsehole. I think I could develop my own opinion a little clearer with some feed back from other perspectives.
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What you say makes sense to me in a purely logical sense but as soon as you apply those points to guns, I think a real cultural difference comes into play. I have always lived in big cities, so to me, guns are what people commit crimes with. I understand in the abstract that people use them for sport, but my gut reaction will always be - guns are what people commit crimes with.
So while I understand not wanting the government to tell you not to own something that you will use responsibly - when it comes to guns, my gut will always say that it doesn't make sense. I'm sure you would use a nuclear weapon responsibly too, and I'm sure you'd be careful if you owned a tiger for a pet, but why would you want one? Why would you tolerate the risk involved to yourself and others? There are other pets you can own, there are other ways you can get meat and other sports you can play, which are safer. So why should society tolerate the risk?
By the way, I apply this to things other than guns. A coworker of mine - a nice guy but not the most level headed - is taking flying lessons. And this reminds me that I also don't think there's any reason for nonprofessionals to be allowed to fly planes around over my head. It's the same as with the guns - there are plenty of other ways to go places, so what is the point of the risk of letting nonprofessionals fly planes? There are plenty of other sports, and other ways to get dead animals to eat, so why take the risk of letting nonprofessionals have guns?
Yes, I do live in a home for scared people. That's where I'm coming from. Better safe than sorry is my middle name.
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So while I understand not wanting the government to tell you not to own something that you will use responsibly - when it comes to guns, my gut will always say that it doesn't make sense.
The other issue is that the main reason we're allowed to have guns is so that we can fight back against our own government when another revolution becomes necessary.
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Again, the caveat: I do not attempt to be rational on this issue.
However. As per the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" issue.
I offer you the scenario as follows...
You are given the ability to stop time and you are given a loaf of french bread. As time has been stopped, after wandering around for a while, you come upon a man with a gun in his hand, about to pull the trigger and kill a man begging for mercy on his knees.
You take the gun out of the man's hand and replace it with the loaf of french bread... you then back off into a position where neither man can see you and you restart time. What happens?
Other than the man on his knees getting some crumbs in his hair?
Yes, a person pathologically determined to kill a man or a woman or a child can kill that person eventually, unless someone finds out and intervenes first. This was true when we were doing it with a rock, it is true today when we can do it by putting a single grain of plutonium in their lunch.
What a gun does is make killing people maddeningly easy.
What a gun does is make killing people disgustingly quick.
What a gun does is make killing people instant and completely irrevocable.
What a gun does is make killing people possible from the distance of a football field where you never have to touch them, feel their breath, see their hands or eyes the same as yours or give them any possibility of self-defense.
What a gun does is allow you to not face your victim's humanity.
What a gun does is make you a god by however many times over there are bullets in the clip.
In a half-second of madness, a shotgun makes you two times a god. A horrible god. A vengeful god. An Old Testament god of hate and war. A revolver and a half-second of madness and you are six times a god. You can strike down on lesser beings with impunity six times before anyone can even move toward stopping you.
If a half-second of madness, you are Odin, you are Zeus, you are goddamn Y-hw-h to two fuck*ng ants or six fuck*ng ants... and only when you run out of lightning bolts are you a goddamn human again.
A gun is a superpower, a gun is a deadly miracle, unanswerable in its swiftness and lack of mercy.
Come at me with a knife and you might kill me, sure.
But I'll get a chance to fight back. And you'll have the time to come to grips with the fact that you are trying to kill someone with the self-same essential spark as you have, whatever the fuck that spark is. And there's a good chance that you'll hurt me with the knife and get whatever you want out of me without killing me. That you'll get my... wallet or my keys or my ass or whatever it is that you want without having to probably kill me.
Come at me with a Rawlings Adirondack bat grown ten miles north of where I was grown, shaped five miles north of where I was shaped and you might kill me. But you'll have to see me bleed. You'll have to hear me call out for my mother with my last breath. And you'll have to goddamn fight me for it.
When death is quickly accomplished, is easy, requires no planning and only a snap decision, is done from a distance like a goddamn comic book character shooting fuck*ng lasers out of his eyes from the moon, is accomplished as a god on high unto a heretic...
Then the mechanism of death is in danger of claiming not only your victim's essential humanity but yours as well.
And, yes, he could kill that man with a french loaf, too. Over weeks of planning and forethought, poisoning it and slipping it into his lunch. Sneaking into his bedroom and stuffing it down his throat and hoping that he can't overpower you in the minutes it would take you to suffocate him.
But he would have to THINK about it, think about it and the consequences a goddamn long time before doing it and... do it as a man putting himself at the risk of getting killed in the act of another man.
There have been half-seconds in my life where if I had a loaded gun, I'd've killed someone. There have been more half-seconds in my life where if I had a loaded gun, I'd've killed myself. As an imperfect human being, I accept that that kind of power doesn't belong in my hands.
Either way, I've understood that when you feel that way, you need to have the time to let that half-second pass and stop thinking like a goddamned animal. Oh but for that shortcut that makes you a half-second god.
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Beauty, eh.
I have some opinions and responses but I'm going to call this a slow motion response on my part thread because:
1. I'd like some more input from other viewpoints, whether or not they seem to reiterate similiar points.
2. We're getting pretty deep into heavily personal emotions type area so my responses will be considered and without personal vitriol.
::KISS::
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LFS, I'd get into this, but it's clearly a powerful issue to you, and no one gains if we debate it. You are a hell of a writer though. Also, I always parse your name oddly and think I ought to refer to you as "smets".
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LFS, I'd get into this, but it's clearly a powerful issue to you, and no one gains if we debate it.
I appreciate that and... agree with you. That's why I keep laying down the "I admit I am not rational" thing and phrase it as just my venting on the subject.
My rational mind admits that as a last-resort self-defensive tool kept under the lock-and-key of a responsible sane and well-trained adult... and, in a few cases, as a rural food-gathering tool... the gun is a necessary evil in our society and...
The point is that what we need to do is not ban guns across the board but, rather, get tough about training and licensing and tracking guns and making them safer, restricting those guns clearly designed for purposes other than last-resort self-defense or reasonable hunting, educating the society as a whole... both about how to be safe and sane around the things but also to neuter the American cult of gun violence in the popular media and that...
If properly handled and viewed AS a necessary evil as opposed to this awesome god-power extension of a cock that Quentin Tarantino thinks is hilarious that American culture seems to see it as...
Maybe I can live with it.
That's my rational mind and that's probably a position that even a lot of red-blooded NRA members (such as my uncle and my grandfater) would agree with at-least shades of my rational mind's thinking.
It's just that there's my... irrational mind.
Which wants to steal a cop car, load it with explosives and drive it into a gun factory, knowing that I am going to the highest of motherfuck*ng Vahallas for saving so many innocent lives.
The key is, I suppose, venting my irrational mind occasionally, that I might continue to know the difference.
Ironically, though?
Until an absolute shitstorm of badness went down in my life, from about the age of twelve to the age of sixteen, I was a full-on young Republican. At the age of eleven, I had a goddamned subscription to Rush Limbaugh's motherfuck*ng newsletter. I believed every word of it.
And... on the other side of losing my cousin to a gun, my grandfather to cancer, my dad's political career ruined by local cops, one of my classmates O.D.ed, another crippled building pipe bombs trying to kill us all... I came out this bleeding-heart liberal, ranting and raving about compassion being the highest calling and... fuck logic and fuck achievement and fuck everything if someone is suffering.
So, like, if I come off as politically arrogant sometimes, I really do completely apologize.
Caught up in my... old teenage scars is this... slightly neurotic vision of myself as possessing a wisdom about political matters because I've seen both sides and I've crossed both poles, y'know, such as Tiresias crossed both poles of gender or Gilgamesh saw both sides of death and walked out with a third kind of view.
I do realize that that's probably an irrationality as well.
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what I really really want... is a statistic about how often crime is stopped by guns. Owned by citizens.
I have never heard it. Maybe it will change my mind. Maybe the liberal media doesn't want me to know how good guns are for me, and america.
but I have never heard this statistic. And it seems like... if "people saved by owning guns" were greater than "people foolishly destroyed by guns"... I would have heard by now. Anti-gun types constantly spew facts and figures... but I've never heard an NRA member use a single one, past the 2nd amendment and crap about the number of NRA members.
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What I really want... is a world where crime can be stopped by a loaf of french bread. And where messageboard debates on controversial topics do not get out of hand overnight when I am sleeping and can't lock the thread. OK?
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what I really really want... is a statistic about how often crime is stopped by guns. Owned by citizens.
I have never heard it. Maybe it will change my mind. Maybe the liberal media doesn't want me to know how good guns are for me, and america.
but I have never heard this statistic. And it seems like... if "people saved by owning guns" were greater than "people foolishly destroyed by guns"... I would have heard by now. Anti-gun types constantly spew facts and figures... but I've never heard an NRA member use a single one, past the 2nd amendment and crap about the number of NRA members.
The numbers do not generally support guns being used to defend the gun-owner versus guns being accidentally discharged or used against the gun-owner. Also, stolen guns skew the numbers even farther.
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To be fair, though... while I have been saying some extreme things, I have always couched them as emotionally-driven and while some people have strongly disagreed with me, they've been really fair about accepting them as emotional.
I think we were pretty well-behaved even when teacher was out sneaking a quick smoke.
(smile-face emoticon)
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...And where messageboard debates on controversial topics do not get out of hand overnight when I am sleeping and can't lock the thread. OK?
No sweaty, wombat. I'm kinda determined not to pull a blow up here because I really am interested in opinions and questions.
Inev...it's a case of under and miss-reporting the actual impacts of firearms and the national and state trends. I'll be back to have a nice talk with ya guyzos and try to present some information without it seeming like homework.
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I'm not huge on guns myself, but I'm not as completely opposed to them as LFM is. Possibly this has to do with living in a country that doesn't have as much a record of gun violence as the US (and I do think gun violence over there is linked to a much bigger social problem rather than simple availability and both need to be addressed if the situation is going to improve) but I here's my point of view:
Let's stop making handguns.
I'm not saying make them illegal for people to own the ones that are currently around since that seems a touchy issue but let's just stop making this type of gun that can only possibly be used to murder another human being. Most countries in the world seem to be in agreement that murder is a bit of a no no and as far as I'm aware handguns have no use in hunting etc. so how about we just stop making these things which only exist to commit what most people believe to be the most heinous act that can be commited by man.
Sure the remaining guns will still be available to criminals but they will also still be available to normal civilians for protection, and since they will be worth much more it will be less likely some piece of shit who wants to rob your house will be able to get one.
Of course this will never happen becuase even if we could convince people that civilians don't need guns the military still need them don't we, and lord knows what would happen if we started as a species to scale back our constant military agression.
Check out my bleeding heart!
Also LFM I didn't want to say it before because you were talking some heavy stuff and I didn't want to sound frivolous but "I am pretty much Batman on the topic of guns" is the best description ever.
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Also LFM I didn't want to say it before because you were talking some heavy stuff and I didn't want to sound frivolous but "I am pretty much Batman on the topic of guns" is the best description ever.
Heh. It's okay.
Suffice it to say that I have had this conversation enough times in my life where I have been able to basically distill my point of view down to its purest and most disgestable form and "I am pretty much Batman on the topic of guns" is the product of fifteen years of that work.
I appreciate the compliment.
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I am anti gun and a vegetarian, but I still believe in hunting. Or, like, I don't see hunting as a negative thing. At least pure hunting. Not those assholes that go to places that releases birds that have never flown before and all that, just some what fair hunting. So I am not completely anti gun, just alot more regulation. However, gun people (not necessarily those on this boards, but the far out Heston types) are kind of jerks from a certain perspective. What the fuck has ever been taken from the gun owners? Anti tank missiles? Yeah, I am sure the founders would have loved those around. It is just people some people act as if they are being persecuted, and will put down gay marriage and other such things. It is hell of hypocritical, and from an African American or Native American or Gay or any minority group whose constitutional rights have been ignored it must seek like bullshit. The same people who look the other way on the other nine rights believe in the second?
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man. This guy in my government class...
we should have had a party, where I burned flags and he shot doves with assault rifles.
...that would have had about the same net effect as the debates we used to have. Except... maybe... more dead doves.
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what I really really want... is a statistic about how often crime is stopped by guns. Owned by
citizens.I have never heard it. Maybe it will change my mind. Maybe the liberal media doesn't want me
to know how good guns are for me, and america. but I have never heard this statistic. And it seems like... if "people saved by owning guns"
were greater than "people foolishly destroyed by guns"... I would have heard by now. Anti-gun
types constantly spew facts and figures... but I've never heard an NRA member use a single one,
past the 2nd amendment and crap about the number of NRA members.
Maybe this link will help you start questioning why this message doesn't have a wider voice.
NRA addresses 'fables' (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=209)
Fable one for you, pardner. If you want to know how often a gun was used in a 'justifiable homocide' try here (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expanded_information/murder_homicide.html). This does not address instances of prevention, you can do your own diggin for that. I really wish the choice of the 'fable' theme hadn't been chosen but if you can handle a little tounge in cheek it's OK. I do think the range of issues addressed is pretty pertinent. Also, the data used from the BoJ, NIJ, GAO, SAAMI, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, NSC and NCHS in the footnotes is easily found and reviewed for ones ownself. I've got the NCHS accidental death .xls report for California open right now and it's...interesting. (short version: fewer gun accidents/suicide/homicide incidents every year from 1981 on in CA.)
educating the society as a whole... both about how to be safe and sane around the things but also to neuter the American cult of gun violence in the popular media and that...
If properly handled and viewed AS a necessary evil as opposed to this awesome god-power extension of a cock that Quentin Tarantino thinks is hilarious that American culture seems to see it as...
"American culture seems to see it as..."
Yep. Agreed. Hella large.
And Doc up there made a pertinent statement up there too, about the sociological underpinnings driving violent crime and weapon use.
I haven't heard the standard news outlets trumpeting the lowest crime/violent crime rate in decades or noting that it has been a consistent decline. Course that doesn't sell in our go go go sensasionalist pap environment. Course, I haven't seen anything about responsible handgun/rifle owners getting together (often times with NRA support/funding) and sponsoring events that stress responsible gun use, safety and ethics (and FUN within those guidelines). The event I participated in drew over 40k last June. This January I took up one Saturday a month to help run the .22 juniors range at my club. The idea being to introduce youth to riflemanship with an emphasis on safety and responsible handling. The range is open to the public for free on the third Sat. of each month and we'll provide youth .22LR training rifles on a limited basis.
To wrap this back up to culture, what I see is that through education and training in a structured environment the crap media message gets cut out for the reality of what a rifle is, how it should be handled, what responsibility it involves and what ethics of use apply. Most importantly, the firearm is de-mystified and the potential for destruction is understood, reinforcing the message of safety and responsibility.
So yeah. We're screwed.
I just realized there's no way I should continue this conversation. Y'all are talking opinions and personal experiences and I'm leaning towards bombarding you with data.
That dog won't hunt.
PAX MY MIGGROIDS
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Interesting tables. In summary, over the last 5 years in the U.S., for every 5 felons killed in the commision of a felony, 2 of them were killed by private citizens - most of the time with a hand gun. (A total of 2,916 toe tags for combined stats).
Edit for total.
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Sub: Ain't nothing wrong with data man, I love me some data. And I can believe that violent crime is on the decrease despite what the media would have us believe. And if there was sufficient education then gun control would be unneccessary. But while we are stuck with fuck*ng douchebags I think we have to accept some sort of limitations on these lethal weapons. Is it possible for someone convicted of violent crime to get a gun over there? Because that seems like an example of something the law should restrict if not.
Jaydub: That's a lot higher than I expected, I'd like to know how many of those crimes were violent crimes.
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Is it possible for someone convicted of violent crime to get a gun over there?
R: Illegally, as in from a dude who has burgled one. Background checks in effect with waiting period across much/most of the country.There's also various limitations, by state, on the number of certain types of guns that can be bought during any given time period. In CA you can buy one handgun every 30 calendar days.
I'd like to know how many of those crimes were violent crimes.
R: Justifiable homocide indicates that there was a cause for the action. In many/most jurisdictions that phrasing indicates defense against hostile/harmful action from another that meets the applicable local test of what constitutes justifiable. A standard example would be an actual entry onto private property while armed. In many areas the test for this is higher and involves the decedent having to make or pose a physical threat before test is met.
And if there was sufficient education then gun control would be unneccessary.
R: I think current forms of registration and control should be maintained. Partially as a way to identify the miscreants and hammer their asses flat.
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Basically, I think if you guys get guns, then I should get drugs.
Can't we have both?
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I think you should be able to own a gun for hunting, but keeping a nine in your bedstand for protection isn't really something I can get behind.
Myself, I feel absolutely no need to own or fire a gun. This is probably due to my playing so many violent video games where I do nothing but that. If I can take my frustration out on virtual Nazis, why should I want to go empty a clip at the local firing range? All that probably seems like a paradox if you listen to all the anti-video game activists that these things make you more violent, but for me it's just the opposite. Does any one else kind of feel the same way or am I just strange?
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I think I may have posted how after the stalking incident that I slept with a loaded .357 under my bed. I don't do that anymore, and I definitely won't do it if I move back home to Colorado. Here, there are no chilluns that visit my house... but I could imagine having friends over for dinner and the kids wandering off upstairs when nobody was looking, and then finding the gun, which would be Hella Bad. I would never be able to forgive myself, so I'll just have to keep it in a locked safe 100% of the time. It's kind of dangerous for me to be getting so cavalier about having loaded firearms in my house.
Maybe I'll get a gunsafe/nightstand. Does someone have a patent on that yet?
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Have a look at this
safe (http://www.impactguns.com/store/751077123030.html). I currently only own longarms, but I'll work some extra cash free someday for a pistol. When I do, you can bet I'll drop $150 extra for a safe like this one.
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why would you ever advertise something as:
$105.99 $110.99 On Sale!
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why would you ever advertise something as:
$105.99 $110.99 On Sale!
In Soviet Russia, sale means you pay extra five rubles.
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In Soviet Russia, popular culture ironically references you!
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In Soviet Russia, people don't kill people; guns kill people!
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And people kill guns!