The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Arts & Entertainment => Topic started by: pmcd9 on October 17, 2006, 11:31:39 pm
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Link to Pitchfork Story (http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/news/39203/Two_Gallants_Speak_Out_About_Houston_Incident)
This incedent happened at Walters on Washington, which is a couple of miles from my house and literally around the corner from some of my friends. I've never been to this particualar club, but i've been to a few shows at Mary Janes across the street, which is owned by the same person (the lady on the left) (http://www.paulmcrae.com/images/Miscellany/Misc/DSCN3939-E-2000.jpg). It's where I saw The Decemberists (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/272629712/), and The Mountain Goats (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/272626787/).
I can totally believe this cop was a lunatic, i've seen this kind of behaviour from the police before.
~Paul
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That's really terrible. It's a damn shame that you get some police guys who abuse their positions of power like that. But, I wouldn't take this on face value; there is a good chance that the cop was shoved or verbally abused beforehand. Nothing short of an actual physical attack excuses his behaviour, but both Pitchfork and the hall full of Skinny Indie Rockers are going to want to put their side of the story rather considerably forward.
On a more trival note:Shortly after a phalanx of cops arrived to provide backup for Rodriguez
Can anyone tell me if the word Phalanx can be an accurate synonym for a group?
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It can be if they have their shields and spears drawn!
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Sounds more like the trouble was with One Goofus.
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Maybe the band sucked real bad. In that case, it is justifiable.
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I was not there and have none of the facts, so am not qualified to determine who was right or wrong.
However. It is never (ever) a good idea to fuck with an armed officer of the law. This does not mean the cop was right.
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And for tazering a 14 year old in front of his dad, the cop is just coming across as jerkier and jerkier every minute. That said, if I saw him coming, I'd move to the other side of the venue!
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You'd think there would be a fair number of witness as to who started what, with it happening on stage and all.
And people wonder why so many kids grow up with an inherent distrust of cops.
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You'd think there would be a fair number of witness as to who started what, with it happening on stage and all.
Pretty much everybody agrees that the cop was a lunatic. The only people defending him weren't there.
~Paul
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! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxKQb03A0bw)
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man, that guy is flipping out. so unfortunate for everyone.
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Actually, that video doesn't show me much either way.
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In that video it looks like the cop acted pretty professionally and calmly considering the circumstances. He put himself in danger, however, by acting alone in a room full of angry drunken miscreants.
Too bad he couldn't have tazered the lot of 'em. ;)
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Yeah, the video really doesn't show that either the copper or the punters are explicitly in the wrong.
How about this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbEoYJibTLo) I still didn't see enough either way to support either statement. If anyone spots something I missed, pointing it out would be appreciated.
Elsewhere on the Internet this has spilt a lot of people. While the majority (presumably they'd flock to this sort of news more than others) seem to be kids calling the cop a power abusing, steroid snorting pig, there is a pretty big group who reckon supporters of the band et al are tree-hugging, liberal jessies who should go back to France.
This is surely part of the reason why the world cannot have nice things.
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Actually, that video doesn't show me much either way.
Remember that the cop was called out on a noise complaint. He wasn't breaking up a fight or anything serious. So he stormed the stage like John Wayne and when the band didn't immediately comply with his request to stop the show he started knocking heads and tazering people. The cop is a lunatic. I've seen his kind before.
~Paul
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Yeah, storming the stage and demanding that the band stop playing doesn't sound like the way to handle a noise complaint from a club (who makes that kind of complaint, anyway? Maybe you shouldn't live near a place that regularly has live music). Maybe he could have talked to an owner or manager and dealt with it at the sound board.
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a possibility: I know that Charlotte, at least, has noise ordinances about not having loud music after certain hours, whether or not it is bothering people.
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The cop is a lunatic. I've seen his kind before.
And he was refusing to admit any kind of culpability as well. Just once I'd like to see a (non OPP) cop back down even just slightly, like a normal, rational human being, at the point where someone is holding back the person who was perhaps shoving you and shouting at you. I mean, the guy didn't seem to swing at the cop or anything, and was pushed away by someone else telling him to not be an idiot, but the cop didn't even listen to him afterwards.
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As someone who has been known to call the police with noise complaints (we do not live near a club, and don't feel that happening to live near a church basement obligates us to the same level of noise tolerance), I would like it to be clear that this is not the sort of response that I had in mind.
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Hey hi everyone. Here's my .02
1) There are lots of good cops and some bad cops and a bunch in the middle who have good days and bad days. There are two kinds of people who become cops in my opinion - there are ones with a sincere desire to keep the peace, help people, prevent most crimes and solve the rest and arrest the bad guys. There are also ones whose professional agenda involves busting heads. I don't know where this guy falls - he's given some testimony on his own, though.
2) Tasering is a non-lethal alternative to shooting someone a cop feels is a threat or who is uncooperative to the point of requiring physical force that could cause injury to the officer or the suspect. In the past (pre taser) the kid would have been beaten with a nightstick or a tonfa, or worse, shot. Also, did he ask the kid if his Dad was nearby? Did hid Dad identify himself? How was the Dad behaving? Not defending the cop but there are a lot of problems with the scenario and it's hard for us to know what police policy is in this situation.
3) Cop was very stupid to take on a crowd this size by himself; to attempt to take control from the stage by himself; to apply force in this situation (vs a crowd) by himself. This probably was very counter to established procedure and, in my opinion, responding to a noise complaint in a club should never result in something like this. Working with the club owner/management and possibly if no cooperation is found, appropriately citing or arresting the club manager makes a lot more sense. The crowd is secondary to the complaint and should not have been involved.
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Where you been Dawg? Everything good with you?
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there were some good comments in the book Blink to the effect that cops freak out when they get in Crowd situations by themselves. This is why they're supposed to call for backup. this is why people get shot/tasered/etc... cops decide "I know the rule says not to do this, but, what's the worst that can happen?" I am sure it's quite intimidating to face a large crowd like that, whether or not he was being a dick. When you're confronted by a pissed off crowd, the Asshole Reflex kicks in and you start busting heads. (or you piss yourself and run away, you know how it goes...)
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2) Tasering is a non-lethal alternative to shooting someone a cop feels is a threat or who is uncooperative to the point of requiring physical force that could cause injury to the officer or the suspect.
Not necessarily non-lethel, I would like to point out. The cop didn't seem to be in any risk of harm, he was chasing the guy to try and taser him... And it's still somewhat questionable as to whether they can cause lasting damage. I'm fairly against the idea of being electrocuted and all, and see little need for him to do so to a kid who is giong to be half his size (he wasn't a small cop).
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Not necessarily non-lethel, I would like to point out. The cop didn't seem to be in any risk of harm, he was chasing the guy to try and taser him... And it's still somewhat questionable as to whether they can cause lasting damage. I'm fairly against the idea of being electrocuted and all, and see little need for him to do so to a kid who is giong to be half his size (he wasn't a small cop).
You could drown trying to drink a cup of tea as well. In general, Tasers are non lethal. At last check, blows to the head and gunshot wounds still cause more death and lasting damage.
You can't take tools away from police and then complain about the job they are doing. In my opinion, this specific incident is a general procedures problem - and the cops size is irrelevant; he would do more damage to the kid physically engaging him then using the tasar if the kid was not following his instructions.
The problem is two fold; law enforcement requires the respect of their role in order for them to NOT need to resort to physical force. If the kid wasn't responding to the officers reasonable directives the officer has discretion to deploy force NOT ONLY to get that one to comply but also to let the crowd know he will deploy force. In the situation he was in he had no reasonable alternatives IF his goal was to get he crowd under control singlehandedly. In other words, as a LONE cop he probably acted appropriately and correctly in the tactical sense. The problem isn't his tactics in my opinion, the problem is he was there by himself in the first place. Once in the situation (which he should NOT have been in) he had limited options to choose from in split seconds. Be glad you don't have that kind of job - where the wrong decision means someone or you could be hurt or killed.
I think his main mistake was misapprehending the situation and not getting help and/or not dealing with the club management but rather attempting to deal with a crowd potentially fueled by alcohol and rock and roll atmosphere.
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You could drown trying to drink a cup of tea as well.
Aw geez, like I didn't have enough to worry about already.
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Back in the days when I was assistant managing the sculpture garden, I worked with the cops in regard to many a noise complaint. See, "Jazz in the Park" was actually "Jazz in the Park Next to the Retirement Community Condos," so we got a noise complaint many a Sunday afternoon. Why Jazz music floating on the breeze across the river and to their condos was such a bother, I'll never know.
I don't know how it works elsewhere, but we had a city issued noise permit which allowed us to create noise up to a certain point - it had something to do with how loud we allowed the bands to set their amps. I took a look at the permit once and it was all about accordance with zoning by-laws and such. We were always compliant with the level allowed, but if a complaint was made the cops would come by to check. Normally a happy cop (what a nice call to get: "we need you to go take a stroll in the park on this lovely day, check out the jazz music, make sure they don't have their amps set above 8, etc.) would come buy, my staff would be all paniced at the sight of a police officer and send him my way, the cop would either want to go up and check the amps, or would just have a polite conversation with me about the complaint, and how as far as he could tell we were within the limits... one time one cop did turn the amps down, but thankfully it was during a break in the set.
So, anyway, I agree with those who post that the cop shouldn't have made the issue the band's problem. It's not the band's problem - clubs have managers and staff that are clearly in the line of command to deal with complaints. I can't walk into a club without someone stopping me to pay cover, show ID, etc, so I also wonder where the staff were at this club. When I'm at a bar and the cops show up, usually the staff is right on talking to them the moment they walk in the door. Did this guy just charge the stage from the street? It's pretty hard to imagine that being the case. Even for the most roided up guy. He's a total idiot for taking on the situation on his own if he really felt it had escalated to a level where he needed to approach the stage, as he aparently did, but someone must have approach him/met him at the door and said "Hi, I'm the manager/security guy/owner, is there a problem?" And what happend after that? Every club I've been in, when the cops show up, all eyes are on them - including the staff - the moment they cross the threshold. Then again, locally, I've never seen a cop enter this sort of situation alone - the local cops patrole bars in pairs.
We have some horrifically crooked cops locally too, so I do sort of impose the idea of this guy being full of uncontrolable 'roid rage onto the situation, but the way it's being presented sounds way too black and white.
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Side Show, you make a good point about someone greeting the cop at the door. I've never been in this particular club, but I would imagine it's much the same as nearly every other club of it's kind around here and like it's sister club across the street. There is someone at the door to take your money and stamp your hand. They are usually sitting behind a counter off to the side of the door. There is no barrier. If it were a rowdy crowd (like at a punk rock or death metal show) you might see an obvious bouncer, but not for an alt country band. Also, It's a very small venue, probably only about 100 people capacity. The cop could have easily walked right in the door past whoever was working there and and headed directly to the stage. Also, the headliner was on stage so it was late and there likely weren't too many new people showing up to collect money from. Whoever was responsible for watching the door could have been cleaning out ashtrays at that point in the night.
I've seen the cops show up at a venue on a noise complaint before, but i've never seen them attempt to shut down a show by force.
I still maintain that this cop was a lunatic.
~Paul