The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => People & Places => Topic started by: pmcd9 on June 24, 2007, 10:40:00 am
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COPS Live on the Streets of Salina KS (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/sets/72157600459707969/)
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COPS Live on the Streets of Salina KS (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/sets/72157600459707969/)
Were these artcar owners? What did they do wrong?
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Were these artcar owners? What did they do wrong?
Ha, that's the problem, they're NOT artcar artist. He was arrested for domestic violence. She was arrested for being a dumbfuck.
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She was arrested for being a dumbfuck.
Man, it sure would be great if that was illegal where I live.
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Wow, uh... yeah, I have some things to say about this, but they'll start a fight. So, uh. Yeah.
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I don't think you know very much about domestic violence and cycles of abuse, Paul.
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With the many negative encounters with the police that I've had, the time will come when I get arrested. I really hope it wont be at a Taco Bell. But maybe it will be. If it is, I really hope no one is there to take pictures. You've got to know that this was one of this lady's lowest moments. She really didn't need it to be documented. I don't know Paul. I love you, but for me, this is a Hunts move on your part.
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I don't think you know very much about domestic violence and cycles of abuse, Paul.
No, probably not, and I hope to never learn first hand. However, I think this was more about drug and alcohol abuse than domestic abuse.
With the many negative encounters with the police that I've had, the time will come when I get arrested. I really hope it wont be at a Taco Bell. But maybe it will be. If it is, I really hope no one is there to take pictures. You've got to know that this was one of this lady's lowest moments. She really didn't need it to be documented. I don't know Paul. I love you, but for me, this is a Hunts move on your part.
I don't know anything about this lady outside of what I withessed and neither do you. For all we know, this is par for the course for her in her life. I do know a little bit about you Mel and given the same situation I can't imagine you behaving like she did.
My inittial reason for taking the photographs were because this was all taking place right next to my friends artcar, but she turned the drama up so high I had to keep snapping. If she had acted in a dignified manner I would have told the story of a dignified person getting arrested. For that matter, if she had acted in a dignified manner she wouldn't have been arrested. But getting dramatic pictures of someone getting arrested wasn't the only thing on my mind. I'm normally not very sympathetic to the police, they can be pricks of the highest order and if they had acted in an unprofessional or illegal manner I would have caught that on film as well. All Rodney King style. In that situation i'm sure that woman would be very happy that I was there to document her abuse at the hands of the Salina Police Department and I would have been more than happy to help her with her cause. As it is, my presence may have been a benifit to this woman, I mean who knows. I don't know much about the Salina Police Department, but they seemed very tolerant. She just kept pushing her luck though until she finally pushed too far.
So call it a Hunt's move if you like, but I don't agree.
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I don't think you know very much about domestic violence and cycles of abuse, Paul.
It really does suck. People tend to blame women for abuse. People try to say stuff like, "Well, she was hitting him back!" Then they blame the woman for staying. It's a product of a patriarchical culture. Abusive relationships are complicated.
I am on the board of directors for our domestic violence shelter. I wanted to take training to become a victim advocate. Also as an EMT I wanted to be on our SART, or sexual assault response team...but I'm leaving and so I'm going to be missing teh training. We serve women, children, and men. Men can be victims too, although it's pretty rare. Alaska has one of the highest rates per capita of rape/sexual assault, child sexual abuse, and domestic violence in the entire country. We also have the highest percentage of women murdered by domestic partners. Domestic violence and sexual assault is a huge problem that everybody has to address.
Also...just because drugs/alcohol were involved does NOT negate the domestic violence. Domestic violence is still domestic violence, even if drugs or alcohol were involved.
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Which excuses any type of behavior she chooses to engage in, even if it happens to be endangering the police officers?
Also, last time I checked, being accused of a crime =/= being guilty of a crime. If you don't believe that there are abusive females involved in relationships or females who have falsely accused partners of domestic violence or other crimes, then I'm sorry, I think you're being sadly naive. Even if he is guilty of abuse, how do you know the woman in the picture is his victim?
I cannot condone domestic violence (or pretty much any other sort of violence.) But the reactions to Paul's pictures scare me. Based on virtually no evidence you've convicted this guy of domestic violence and lambasted Paul for not being sensitive enough to the woman's plight (and the plight of women in general...)
Paul takes pictures of what he sees and I'm glad he does. Sometimes he sees ugly things.
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AW, I think you're totally missing the point. I am talking about accountability in the age of denial (http://www.law.du.edu/castlerock/schedule.htm). I am not excusing the Kansan woman's behavior at all, I am attacking the pervasive societal view of domestic violence where women get blamed. I am not saying that this particular woman in this particular incident was innocent or guilty. You're right, AW. I was not there. However, even being a bystander doesn't mean that you have the whole story. Hell, even being the medic on scene doesn't mean I have the complete picture. But you know what? I've been on a lot more domestic violence calls than you have. I've seen it up close, live, and in person. I've taken women to the clinic with horrible injuries. I have also been there to help young men who were sexually assaulted in giraffe processing bunkhouses. Some of them lash out at us, and who can blame them? The ones that assault us or spit on us are taken into custody, but they still get help from our domestic violence shelter.
In Paul's instance, the cops took both of them to jail. Even if you're the victim of violence, it doesn't give you carte blanche to break the law. However, our police chief is also on the board with me. The stories that he told about some of the other departments that he worked at were terrifying. He saw asshole cops withno training in domestic violence who did stupid shit to punish the victim.
In Castle Rock, nearby to where I live in Colorado, a perpetrator also happened to be a cop committed a heinous crime. His wife pleaded with the department to enforce the restraining order that she had. He kidnapped all three of her children, and murdered them. In Castle Rock v. Gonzales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales), the Supreme Court ruled that the town and its police department could not be sued for failure to enforce the order.
The CRPD took a gamble to protect "one of their own", blatantly disregarded the law, and guess what? He murdered three little girls. It does not mean that all men are murderers, it means that perpetrators -- whomever they are -- are guilty whether or not they get caught.
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This was what I had an issue with, especially the part in bold. I probably should have addressed it on flickr:
Thank you for the story Kristy. That's some good stuff. You felt bad for the lady when she was getting abused by her boyfriend, but don't it make you feel like a chump for extending you sympathy to someone so stupid. What makes people want to stay involved with someone that is abusing them? They are probably breeding right now.
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AW, I think you're totally missing the point. I am talking about accountability in the age of denial (http://www.law.du.edu/castlerock/schedule.htm). I am not excusing the Kansan woman's behavior at all, I am attacking the pervasive societal view of domestic violence where women get blamed.
(AD)I didn't see in this thread where she was blamed for anything but witnessed and partially documented disorderly conduct, and she admitted to public intoxication.
I am not saying that this particular woman in this particular incident was innocent or guilty.
She admitted to one crime and was certainly responsible for her actions in the sense of obstruction/disorderly conduct.
You're right, AW. I was not there. However, even being a bystander doesn't mean that you have the whole story. Hell, even being the medic on scene doesn't mean I have the complete picture. But you know what? I've been on a lot more domestic violence calls than you have. I've seen it up close, live, and in person. I've taken women to the clinic with horrible injuries. I have also been there to help young men who were sexually assaulted in giraffe processing bunkhouses. Some of them lash out at us, and who can blame them? The ones that assault us or spit on us are taken into custody, but they still get help from our domestic violence shelter.
I know guys that were accused of rape and abuse by vindictive and un-harmed women with an axe to grind and sympathetic, wrong minded 'social go gooders' or opportunistic prosecuutors or judges on their side. For every Reade Seligmann there are 200 other guys without alibis or the benefit of a really disorganized false accuser who can't keep the story straight. The sad thing was, had she accused a poor black man he'd probably be in prison right now.
In Paul's instance, the cops took both of them to jail. Even if you're the victim of violence, it doesn't give you carte blanche to break the law. However, our police chief is also on the board with me. The stories that he told about some of the other departments that he worked at were terrifying. He saw asshole cops with no training in domestic violence who did stupid shit to punish the victim.
She was punished for her inability to comply with the cops orders and comport herself in a reasonable manner. Her victimhood was not a part of the arresting equation according to the facts we have before us here.
In Castle Rock, nearby to where I live in Colorado, a perpetrator also happened to be a cop committed a heinous crime. His wife pleaded with the department to enforce the restraining order that she had. He kidnapped all three of her children, and murdered them. In Castle Rock v. Gonzales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales), the Supreme Court ruled that the town and its police department could not be sued for failure to enforce the order.
The CRPD took a gamble to protect "one of their own", blatantly disregarded the law, and guess what? He murdered three little girls. It does not mean that all men are murderers, it means that perpetrators -- whomever they are -- are guilty whether or not they get caught.
I'm not sure where this fits in. Criminals exist across society, including among those who are meant to uphold the law. That's a terrible story and the order should have been enforced. There are legal and institutional issues there. The piece of paper has yet to stop a fist, knife or bullet, though - if someone wants to get at you they will, cop or not. Women at this kind of risk need far more protection than a written order, and many are harmed or killed with these orders in place. This is a case where the system just doesn't work.
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Actually, I also had an issue with calling someone stupid for staying with their abuser. That part should have been in bold too. I think it's pretty much never stupidity that causes that.
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AlohaDawg, I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. Rape is one of the most highly underreported crimes in the United States.
Do you understand what I mean when I mention the patriarchical view of women in our society? My problem is that these misogynistic views are so deeply entrenched in our society that people don't notice them at all. When guys get off on a tangent about "the man was unfairly accused because the bitch asked for it," they are reinforcing their worldview that women deserve to be subjugated and that it is the Natural Order. Women who accuse anyone of rape are automatically labeled as subhuman. I have no idea why men get all freaked out about men labeled as defendants and automatically assume that "the bitch is lying. All bitches lie." I guess that men latch onto one or two "innocent men" stories and can't see the forest for the trees. Why do guys focus on "the bitch with an axe to grind" stories rather than focusing on helping the victims?
If it sounds like I'm discounting the extreme minority of falsely-accused men in favor of the huge majority of domestic violence and rape victims that get chewed up by the system...you're absolutely correct. In the 1980s women began to band together and form domestic violence shelters and to start to work towards justice and safety for all. 27 years later and there is still a TON of work to be done, as evidenced by the heartbreaking stories such as Castle Rock v. Gonzales.
Everyone knows that we have a flawed justice system. Does any country in the world have a perfect system? It sucks that we live in a world where innocent people have been sent to death row and executed. Does that mean we should junk the whole system? "Innocent until proven guilty" is fine, but that doesn't mean that you get set scot-free without bond just because you're "Innocent until proven guilty." If you're accused of a crime, the justice system guarantees you certain rights.
I mentioned the Castle Rock case because Paul mentioned that he doesn't trust cops either - it's a perfect example of how nobody takes the domestic violence victim seriously, least of all the ones that are supposed to be helping the victim. The man gets all the credibility and the "benefit of the doubt", and the victim is almost always discounted and discredited - "She must like it because otherwise why would she stay with him??" And you know what? That piece of paper is all the protection they get.
If you want to talk about a system that fails, don't look at the minority of men who are falsely accused - look at the women who are given totally inadequate protection from perpetrators.
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I have no idea why men get all freaked out about men labeled as defendants and automatically assume that "the bitch is lying. All bitches lie."
Nobody said that all women lie. The point is that some do. Isn't it just as unfair for you to assume that:
a) Men "automatically" assume anything;
b) A man accused of a crime against a woman is automatically guilty of it.
Everybody deserves a fair trial and the presumption of innocence -- even us patriarchs.
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I appologize for asserting that it's stupidity that keeps women in abusive relationships? In my defense (slightly) isn't someone whose actions are in conflict with their best interest pretty much the textbook definition of stupid? Further in my defense a part of my statement was framed as a question. So i'll ask again, to you directly Nabu, what makes a person want to stay involved with someone who is abusing them?
~Paul
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Nobody said that all women lie. The point is that some do. Isn't it just as unfair for you to assume that:
a) Men "automatically" assume anything;
b) A man accused of a crime against a woman is automatically guilty of it.
Everybody deserves a fair trial and the presumption of innocence -- even us patriarchs.
Yes! My point is not to say that every report is false; the problem is that the bias is to assume in very broad terms that every report is true. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to sex crimes; once accused your pretty much fucked. And the vast majority of the accused are not women. This is not to say that sexual assault does not happen...or domestic violence. The problem is that there are people out there who carry the belief that it's OK to use allegations of crime as a form of vengeance or as a means to an end other than justice for them.
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I appologize for asserting that it's stupidity that keeps women in abusive relationships? In my defense (slightly) isn't someone whose actions are in conflict with their best interest pretty much the textbook definition of stupid? Further in my defense a part of my statement was framed as a question. So i'll ask again, to you directly Nabu, what makes a person want to stay involved with someone who is abusing them?
~Paul
There's a lot of psychology involved there, Paul, and honestly, it's unfair to try to understand the dynamics of that decision in a vacuum because it's different in every case. In many cases, the abuse is beyond physical and the dominant partner has control of finances, car keys, etc. and assert control to ensure the other person can't leave. Children may be involved. Sometimes there are dependencies that cause the decision to leave to be less important than the decision to stay. To use a label like stupid is pretty unfair. I've known people who were plenty in love with each other - the problem was that beyond the emotion, one or both of them lacked some critical skills to deal with the other, or to deal with external pressures on the relationship, like meddling parents or finances or kids, or violations of trust. We go through our teens with the notion that love is enough, but for most people, love is a place to start but there is a lot of other input required and I know you've been in enough relationships to know that there is work involved. Some people never figure out what the work is or how to do it, and sometimes a potentially wonderful lifelong relationship is wasted because of it.
Of course, some people are just assholes and others are just bitches and that's how it goes. :-)
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I appologize for asserting that it's stupidity that keeps women in abusive relationships? In my defense (slightly) isn't someone whose actions are in conflict with their best interest pretty much the textbook definition of stupid? Further in my defense a part of my statement was framed as a question. So i'll ask again, to you directly Nabu, what makes a person want to stay involved with someone who is abusing them?
~Paul
The dynamics within an abusive relationship are very complex. Have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
To delve a little deeper into the issue, here is what I have learned:
We live in a society that devalues women, disenfranchises them, and constantly reinforces the idea that women are vulnerable to predation. Twisty Faster has a lot to say (http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2007/04/14/some-notes-on-revolution/) that I agree with 100% in this blog entry. The entry focuses mostly on women who lead public lives who get shit upon, but this portion of the entry applies across the board.
I find that feminists of the empowerful, slo-mo kickboxing variety are sometimes impatient with women who have been publicly screwed over by the Establishment. These feminists seem actually to be critical of women on the wrong end of a beatdown. Their motto is that the wronged women should open up a can of whup-ass on the thugly oppressor. Otherwise, men might take it into their heads that women can be kept in line with intimidation. According to these feminists, the women who cry uncle have allowed themselves to become victims rather than people.
But look here. Who are they trying to kid. Women can be kept in line with intimidation, and the whole world knows it. Aren't people who have been raped and intimidated and harassed and threatened with death...victims? What the fuck is wrong with that word? It describes the situation perfectly.
Do you guys get, I mean actually get, that our society is a patriarchy? Patriarchy isn't just a gimmick for a blog. It really exists. There are actual implications. Do you get that a patriarchy is predicated on exploitation and victimization? It's not a joke! It's not an abstract concept dreamed up by some wannabe ideologue making up catch-phrases while idling away the afternoons with pitchers of margs. Exploitation and victimization is the actual set-up!
Okay, now it's back to Somebody nice's personal words. Men can also be victims of domestic violence, whether in a straight or gay relationship. Female victims often suffer in silence because of the crippling social stigma against domestic violence and even make excuses to hide their partner's abusive behavior. Male victims also remain silent because of the macho image in our culture men are expected to maintain. We get a lot of male sexual assault victims up here. Most of the time they are too ashamed to say anything. They are terrified that it's their fault. Then we get the asshole supervisors that want to put the victim right back in the same bunkhouse room with the asshole that raped him in the first place!!! That's where our domestic violence shelter comes in, so that we can get the guy a safe place to stay (like a hotel room) until they can get safer arrangements for him at the plant.
This is a good article from a news magazine for police officers (http://www.officer.com/web/online/On-the-Street/Understanding-the-Dynamics-Of-Domestic-Violence/21$35150):
he two major elements prevalent in all domestic violence relationships are power and control. The abuser retains power over the victim and often controls the victim in numerous ways. For purposes of discussion, the victim will be referred to in the female gender. The abuser will often utilize coercion, threats, and intimidation to control the victim. He may threaten to leave the victim or commit suicide and can influence the victim to attempt to drop any filed criminal charges. The abuser may provoke fear in the victim by certain gestures, actions, and by a certain look he may give her. He may abuse family pets, destroy her property, and display a weapon to invoke additional fear and achieve greater control.
It is also common for the abuser to employ emotional abuse by causing the victim to feel bad about herself through the use of insults, demeaning and derogatory comments, humiliation, playing mind games, and making her feel guilty. As a consequence, the abuser will make light of any abuse he employs, will not heed any concerns expressed by the victim, and will place the blame on her to deflect blame from himself. He may even go so far as to deny any abuse occurred. In addition, he may utilize "male privilege" wherein he will treat the victim like a servant and behave as if he is "master of the castle." He will define the male/female roles in the household and make all the decisions.
In turn, he may employ economic abuse by controlling the finances and preventing the victim from having access to funds, preventing the victim from working outside the home, keeping her isolated from outside sources, and with little or no contact with other individuals.
When the victim is subjected to the power and control of the abuser, she becomes further dependent upon him and begins to lose her self-esteem. She is overwhelmed by the circumstances and often knows no way out. She endures the physical abuse comprised of battering that can include shoving, hitting, slapping, punching, choking, shaking, and kicking, among other violent actions. The cycle of violence becomes repetitive and more severe over time. Frequently, those on the outside have no knowledge of the behavior transpiring behind closed doors.
Thus, the victim becomes entrapped in the cycle of violence that includes three phases--the tension building, the explosive, and the honeymoon phases. In the initial stage, she feels the tension building and will do anything to divert the abuser's displeasure from proceeding into an eruption of violence. When it builds to a point that she can no longer thwart it from occurring, the abuser lashes out and violently attacks the victim by battering her in some fashion. She may be severely beaten and injured, but she may not necessarily report the incident to law enforcement authorities. Following the violence, the honeymoon phase will follow in which the abuser apologizes to the victim for his behavior and will proffer excuses in which he may claim he had a "bad day at work" and promises similar actions will not recur in the future. He may bring her flowers, her favorite perfume, and coddle her to win back her affection only to buy some time until the violence explodes again.
The impact of domestic violence on victims is tremendous. Repeated abuse confuses victims about the meaning of love. They are desperate for affection, but they become vulnerable to dangerous relationships. Frequently, they hope the abuser will change and want to believe that will happen so they will forgive him and provide additional opportunities to rectify the situation only to become re-victimized by the continuing pattern of violence.
Victims are often reluctant to report abuse to law enforcement authorities because they fear reprisal from the abuser who may threaten to harm her further or even kill her if she divulges the violence. They are intimidated and coerced by the abuser not to do so and, commonly, he will threaten to harm or take the children away, which is one of the biggest factors that will preclude victims from not reporting the abuse. They genuinely believe they will lose their children and are willing to endure anything in order for this not to occur.
Victims of domestic violence also feel embarrassed and ashamed to seek help and disclose what they have been going through. They commonly believe they are worthless individuals, and their self-esteem has been highly diminished or destroyed by the power and control that has been exercised in the relationship by the abuser.
This article from a state coalition against domestic violence has a great profile on batterers and some of the reasons why they abuse: http://www.acadv.org/abusers.html (http://www.acadv.org/abusers.html)
The United States Department of Veterans Affairs has an excellent article on DV here: http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/ncmain/ncdocs/fact_shts/fs_domestic_violence.html
The Wikipedia article on DV that's currently up is a load of shit. Someone with an agenda had a serious axe to grind, used weasel words and slanted the entire article so it's horribly biased. Totally not worth reading. I have no time and zero patience for the Majorly wRong Assholes. Walk a mile in my shoes, motherfucker.
Of course, my favorite agencies beside our local shelter include STAR, or Standing Together Against Rape (http://www.staralaska.com/scripts/home.asp) and the Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault (http://www.andvsa.org/), because I personally know a lot of their staff, and they have traveled here to help train our board of directors as well as our police officers and Fire/EMS personnel. One of my favorite artists, Tori Amos, also helped to found RAINN (http://www.rainn.org/). All of those sites have some excellent articles and links.
My motto is that if we work together and break the silence, we can help stop suffering. That's why I do what I do as far as volunteering. Y'all certainly don't have to do it, and I don't care what you think of me for undertaking this type of work, but I'm just trying to explain my side of the story.
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So wait...Salina, huh? It is the only place you turn between OKC and Denver. What are you doing in that part of the world, Paul?
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Is this pervasive social atmosphere whereby women who accuse men of abuse are "automatically labeled as subhuman" one that's more pervasive over in America? Because I genuinely have never come across it in any other context than people railing against it, but it's possible that that's just chance or ignorance and I feel its wise to be well aware of the particular ways in which society is fucked up.
Linnea, I think I agree with an awful lot of what you're saying, but I really don't think you're saying it in a terribly helpful way.
When guys get off on a tangent about "the man was unfairly accused because the bitch asked for it," they are reinforcing their worldview that women deserve to be subjugated and that it is the Natural Order. Women who accuse anyone of rape are automatically labeled as subhuman.
This seemed like it was intended as a response to the point that some men are falsely accused and can be thoroughly fucked over despite being completely innocent. How relevant and important that point was aside, you've not really been very fair to it. In fact, you seem to have equated it with the nonsense defences of rapists who claim their victims wanted it really even if they said "no". Surely nobody here, making the former point, would say "the bitch asked for it"? The situation you've outlined seems to bear no relation to the one AlohaDawg made, to the point that I'm only assuming it was a response because if it wasn't I have no idea why you'd have pointed out something so blindingly obvious that I can't imagine anyone here disagreeing.
While we're about it, what's this about men not reporting abuse solely because they're too macho? I thought these relationships were complex?
(If there's one thing about myself that sickens me, it's that I can read a thread like this and get more riled about how people debate than about the issues at hand.)
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My motto is that if we work together and break the silence, we can help stop suffering. That's why I do what I do as far as volunteering. Y'all certainly don't have to do it, and I don't care what you think of me for undertaking this type of work, but I'm just trying to explain my side of the story.
I still don't think you're getting what we're saying.
I think working to stop domestic violence and rape is great -- I respect and admire you for doing the work. I understand how victimization works. I think men (or women) found guilty of these crimes should be punished for them and their victims should be helped.
However, I think am certain that not every man accused of one of these crimes is guilty. I still haven't heard you even recognize that as a possibility.
Nobody here is saying that domestic violence doesn't occur or that it isn't a horrible horrible thing. However when you start talking about "men" in such broad sweeping terms you strike me as something of a bigot.
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Paul, if you really want my take on it, I suppose we could go offline, but I think the ground has pretty much been covered. It can't be stupidity that keeps a victim with an abuser, because there simply isn't anyone that stupid.
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I think we're talking about two entirely different things.
However, I think am certain that not every man accused of one of these crimes is guilty. I still haven't heard you even recognize that as a possibility.
Nobody here is saying that domestic violence doesn't occur or that it isn't a horrible horrible thing. However when you start talking about "men" in such broad sweeping terms you strike me as something of a bigot.
Bigoted because I'm pointing out that our society encourages violence against women? And yes, I have already made huge allowances for dudes who get falsely accused.
I guess that men latch onto one or two "innocent men" stories and can't see the forest for the trees. Why do guys focus on "the bitch with an axe to grind" stories rather than focusing on helping the victims?
If it sounds like I'm discounting the extreme minority of falsely-accused men in favor of the huge majority of domestic violence and rape victims that get chewed up by the system...you're absolutely correct.
If you want to talk about a system that fails, don't look at the minority of men who are falsely accused - look at the women who are given totally inadequate protection from perpetrators.
The men who get falsely accused still get public defenders, but women who try to have protective orders enforced get told by the police to call back later, like in the Castle Rock case. Once the dude's case gets dismissed, his record shows nothing about being accused of being a batterer.
Is this pervasive social atmosphere whereby women who accuse men of abuse are "automatically labeled as subhuman" one that's more pervasive over in America? Because I genuinely have never come across it in any other context than people railing against it, but it's possible that that's just chance or ignorance and I feel its wise to be well aware of the particular ways in which society is fucked up.
A recurrent theme that I see among well-educated middle-class white dudes is that they seem genuinely bewildered that these sorts of things actually happen to other people. These kinds of things do not happen within their world except to pathetic white trash on television, and the viewer can always feel a little smug that these people are such trash and obviously deserve their station in life. The bewildered dudes themselves work hard, pay taxes, do not hit their wives, and they send their daughters and sons to college, so why the hell are rabid-ass feminists like linnea trying to make them feel bad about having a c*ck?
...Dude, I am not trying to make you feel bad for having a c*ck. I'm trying to point out shit that happens to women that seems to fly below your radar.
I am always fighting a losing battle when I try to explain concepts like male privilege or what constitutes a patriarchical society. Dudes get hostile when I ask them to look outside their comfort zone. So whatever. Continue with your regularly scheduled programming.
Linnea, I think I agree with an awful lot of what you're saying, but I really don't think you're saying it in a terribly helpful way.
While we're about it, what's this about men not reporting abuse solely because they're too macho? I thought these relationships were complex?
This seemed like it was intended as a response to the point that some men are falsely accused and can be thoroughly fucked over despite being completely innocent. How relevant and important that point was aside, you've not really been very fair to it. In fact, you seem to have equated it with the nonsense defences of rapists who claim their victims wanted it really even if they said "no". Surely nobody here, making the former point, would say "the bitch asked for it"?
Look, domestic violence is a difficult topic. People here on this message board implied that the woman in the photographs must like domestic violence because she stays with her abuser (e.g., she is stupid) and is willing to harass the cops who arrested him. Displays like that are a fixture on C.O.P.S. (heh, Philippe reference to COPS (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=09252002)), so much so that it's a common pop culture stereotype. "Oh honey, look at the poor white trash on TV, addled on meth and Night Train and harassin' the cops, even though the neighbors called the cops because Cletus was trying to bash Mary Jane's head in with a brick. She must like it if she's pleading with the cops not to arrest him!"
As far as the male emotional response to being domestic violence victims - I'm sorry that wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, that is just compiled from the research that's been done...nationwide, statewide, and locally.
I get really pissed off when people disparage women because it happens all the god damned time. I get pissed off when people try to deny that there's an underlying societal structure that supports violence against women. A woman that I worked with used to come to work with bruises and shit, and explain with a laugh that it was because she was so clumsy. That DOES NOT mean she was a victim of domestic violence, she very well could have been telling the truth, but it was a red flag. I still got a little sick to my stomach every time she went through the "clumsy" routine. I got sicker when she railed against a woman here in town (S.) whose boyfriend got sent to jail for beating her, saying that S. should have been jailed too. Totally brainwashed by her asshole husband that women do not deserve help and that they are to blame for abuse.
The dudes on this messageboard are good people. I'm not trying to say that you are personally responsible for violence against women; however, society is responsible. I'm just confused why dudes are getting hot under the collar because I'm trying to explain why exchanges like this (about domestic violence and violence against women in general) make me angry because of the underlying societal mechanisms that allow them to keep happening, mechanisms that are ignored and never challenged.
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I'm guessing the police officers that came to arrest the dude despite the woman's protest are a part of the "underlying societal mechanisms" you are speaking about.
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I think we're talking about two entirely different things.
Bigoted because I'm pointing out that our society encourages violence against women?
No because you make sweeping generalizations about a group of people that may not be true of individuals in that class.
And yes, I have already made huge allowances for dudes who get falsely accused.
Could you point that out?
The men who get falsely accused still get public defenders, but women who try to have protective orders enforced get told by the police to call back later, like in the Castle Rock case.
Mmmm, I think you're making a huge generalization here. Protective orders get enforced all the time. One case of non-enforcement does not mean that it's always like that.
Once the dude's case gets dismissed, his record shows nothing about being accused of being a batterer.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. The arrest record and the court records exist unless they are expunged. Also, some cases are dismissed correctly, which you seem completely unable to accept as a legitimate possibility.
A recurrent theme that I see among well-educated middle-class white dudes is that they seem genuinely bewildered that these sorts of things actually happen to other people. These kinds of things do not happen within their world except to pathetic white trash on television, and the viewer can always feel a little smug that these people are such trash and obviously deserve their station in life. The bewildered dudes themselves work hard, pay taxes, do not hit their wives, and they send their daughters and sons to college, so why the hell are rabid-ass feminists like linnea trying to make them feel bad about having a c*ck?
Why is it OK for you to make generalizations about "dudes"? Wouldn't you be offended if I made offensive generalizations about "chicks"?
...Dude, I am not trying to make you feel bad for having a c*ck. I'm trying to point out shit that happens to women that seems to fly below your radar.
And what I'm trying to tell you is that we are aware of it. I've gotten EPO's before and worked for women's shelters. I've also represented men that I am convinced were quite demonstrably falsely accused, yet were faced with an effective presumption of guilt.
Domestic violence is a terrible thing, nobody's disputing that. But I'm not prepared to give up my fundamental conceptions of justice in a vain attempt to fight it. Logic, factual proof and the presumption of innocence are still required in these cases.
I am always fighting a losing battle when I try to explain concepts like male privilege or what constitutes a patriarchical society. Dudes get hostile when I ask them to look outside their comfort zone. So whatever. Continue with your regularly scheduled programming.
Patronizing much?
Look, domestic violence is a difficult topic. People here on this message board implied that the woman in the photographs must like domestic violence because she stays with her abuser (e.g., she is stupid)
I don't think anybody ever said or implied that the woman liked violence. Point that out to me.
and is willing to harass the cops who arrested him.
Looks like the pictures and Paul's testimony documented that.
Displays like that are a fixture on C.O.P.S. (heh, Philippe reference to COPS (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=09252002)), so much so that it's a common pop culture stereotype. "Oh honey, look at the poor white trash on TV, addled on meth and Night Train and harassin' the cops, even though the neighbors called the cops because Cletus was trying to bash Mary Jane's head in with a brick.
I'm with you this far.
She must like it if she's pleading with the cops not to arrest him!"
What? You've made two quantum leaps here. First "pleading with the cops" is not the same as "harrassin' the cops". Is there not a line that the woman could have crossed that would justify her being arrested? Please tell us what behaviors alleged victims are to get a free pass on?
(As an aside here, anybody who defies a cop's instructions is most likely an idiot. You WILL lose that battle and be arrested, even if you are entirely in the right and the cop is entirely in the wrong.)
Second quantum leap: "She must like it" is not the same as "She's too stupid to leave". The reasons people stay in abusive relationships are surely complex and are bewildering to those of us who haven't been involved in them. How can we explain something so inexplicable? Ignorance is surely a more generous explanation than enjoyment, though neither one is accurate. But that doesn't make them equivalent. We can pity a woman who is too stupid to leave, but we don't feel as inclined to feel sympathy towards a woman who "must like it." Most people, us middle-class white guys included, express pity for the victims of domestic violence. Attributing it to ignorance on the woman's part may be misguided, but it doesn't rise to the mean-spiritedness of the "She must like it" you accuse us all of.
I get really pissed off when people disparage women because it happens all the god damned time.
Where did this happen? Point that out to me.
The dudes on this messageboard are good people. I'm not trying to say that you are personally responsible for violence against women; however, society is responsible. I'm just confused why dudes are getting hot under the collar because I'm trying to explain why exchanges like this (about domestic violence and violence against women in general) make me angry because of the underlying societal mechanisms that allow them to keep happening, mechanisms that are ignored and never challenged.
Here's the problem. When you say "society" what I hear is "men". Even in a so-called patriarchal society, women have an influence. It may not be as overt, it may be subtle, but if you think men alone are responsible for our social mores you're kidding yourself.
Are women treated unjustly in our society? Maybe. But we can't remedy that by treating men unjustly.
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Woah,
I just sort of scanned over the shit that hit the fan. I'm not getting into the pool here.
Paul, when I said it was a hunts move, I meant it is a hunts move to take photos of someone at their lowest then use them for entertainment. Even if even if it is par for the course for this lady to do a thing with the po-po every few days, you didn't make her life any better by taking photos. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's not cool. Not a major crime in my books, just an error in judgment on level with picking up Hunts over Heinz at the grocery store. This from a lady who used to get chuckles from going on hooker runs, laughing my ass off at the ladies of the night with my buddy. Total hunts move.
People: love your white trash, dumb as brothers and sisters. Rock out Brooklyn. Rock out New Jersey. Peace out.
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(As an aside here, anybody who defies a cop's instructions is most likely an idiot. You WILL lose that battle and be arrested, even if you are entirely in the right and the cop is entirely in the wrong.)
This seems like an important point because yeah, obviously for this couple to have gotten to this point, there is a lot of shit going on in their lives that we should feel sorry for -- but that doesn't mean that they don't also, perhaps unrelatedly, happen to be idiots.
I was surprised where this thread went because the main thing I took away from Paul's post was what I think he meant by it which is, wow, some people are dumb enough to act like that towards the police even if they are not hoping to get their fifteen minutes of fame on "Cops." Whatever else we might suspect from that woman's behavior, the only thing that is for sure is that she has some serious common sense issues.
I guess I'm sort of impressed that youall saw something deeper, but I am worried that we are now getting into flame war territory here.
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I was surprised where this thread went because the main thing I took away from Paul's post was what I think he meant by it which is, wow, some people are dumb enough to act like that towards the police even if they are not hoping to get their fifteen minutes of fame on "Cops." Whatever else we might suspect from that woman's behavior, the only thing that is for sure is that she has some serious common sense issues.
Thank you Wombat, that is exactly what I meant.
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What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?
Yeah, good photoset, Paul. People can be jackasses sometimes, and gender seems to have little to do with it.
I started reaching for the "Reply" button to address some of the logical fallacies and rhetorical gymnastics in this thread (Linnea is particularly limber on this particular topic - no offense, hon) but then I remembered that there's still some Shakespeare I haven't read yet.
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Just like before, I still agree with an awful lot of what you're saying, even if I think half of it is not really relevant and most of it is appallingly expressed. Just one last important point.
A recurrent theme that I see among well-educated middle-class white dudes is that they seem genuinely bewildered that these sorts of things actually happen to other people. These kinds of things do not happen within their world except to pathetic white trash on television, and the viewer can always feel a little smug that these people are such trash and obviously deserve their station in life. The bewildered dudes themselves work hard, pay taxes, do not hit their wives, and they send their daughters and sons to college, so why the hell are rabid-ass feminists like linnea trying to make them feel bad about having a c*ck?
...Dude, I am not trying to make you feel bad for having a c*ck. I'm trying to point out shit that happens to women that seems to fly below your radar.
As this was in response to my comment, I feel I should point out that you don't actually know me at all; the charmingly sheltered little picture you've painted there simply isn't accurate, and I've still never observed the mindset you've described. I'll admit that this might well be due to chance and geography, although if that's possible I'd question how pervasive said mindset really is. To me, though, the fact that you don't give even a moment's consideration to the chance that the ocean separating us might also mark some halfway relevant cultural differences is quite telling about the way you're treating the discussion in this thread.
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Wow, hate to start up an old thread that was beaten to death. I was the officer that observed the Domestic Battery situation that Paul photographed. I observed the man get very aggressive with the woman on the street corner over a pack of cigarettes.
I was on my way home but felt it was important for both of their safety to stop and "assist" them. In this case it was apparent that both parties were verbally arguing as I observed them.
I returned to their location where I hoped that they would observe me and stop arguing especially due to their proximity to a very busy intersection. These two individuals chose the southeast corner of the street to argue. As I parked my bike I observed the male subject strongly pull the females arm, appearing to be attempting to drag her toward the store. At this point I am mandated by law to make an arrest if they are in a domestic relationship. If I don't I'm the bad COP and will surely be reported to my leadership for neglecting to perform my duties. The man continued to pull her arm until she jerked away. The female then ran into traffic and went to Taco Bell where she was approached by myself and other officers. After establishing that the two lived with one another "in the apartments across the street" we arrested the male subject.
It was apparent from the very start that they were both very intoxicated and that they had a abusive relationship which they are both likely stuck in. This is a mental state that is not explainable by myself or anyone else even if they have been, or are in one of these relationships. In Kansas the Law states that if we as Law enforcement see or observe evidence of a domestic battery we must arrest the suspected person. If evidence exists that both parties are the offenders we have the discretion to arrest both parties.
We explained the law to the female subject several times. I even offered to give her a ride home or escort her across the street. In Salina there is a ordnance against Intoxicated pedestrian in roadway. She could have been arrested immediately. However we attempted to work with her for quite an extended period of time. She yelled at officers, screemed obscenities. and approached in a aggressive manner several times. Durring this time the manager of Taco Bell advised she did not want the female to be in her Establishment due to her anxious drunken state. We informed the female of this several times. The female expressed her dislike with this in a creative manner and entered the building. The female was escorted from the building by two officers, myself included. She struggled by was treated with the respect she deserved and we afford the people we deal with.
I observed Paul photographing the incident as we were walking from the building with the female. I did not know we were being photographed by a bystander. Had Paul not been there our behavior would have been the same. I appreciate the public photographing and recording our actions in Salina. However even if the public is not photographing, we are recording on audio recorders and video equipment in our vehicles. This incident was recorded on three micro recorders and two digital video cameras, in addition to Paul's photographs. These tools not only protect officers on many occasions but are also used to scrutinize our actions and to use for training. If we make what our brass deems a mistake were are informed in many ways, which is right. However it is nice to see these types of situations posted by citizens.
I see allot of domestic violence in my line of work and don't believe that there is a cure without outside help. The woman was not arrested for domestic violence and her actions were definitely not her her best in life. The female was charged with fail to comply and that was it. She could have faced numerous other charges but her drunken state was taken into consideration.
Again thank you Paul for your photographs. Sorry you had to experience this in Salina. It really is a great town. We have our issues just like anyone else but we like to think we treat people with respects and courtesy.
Keep posting when you see a situation like this.
An wow look at the dialog it opened up about Domestic Battery. Please dont start a dialog with me telling me where im wrong on here. That wasn't my point of responding and I get that enough from the people I get paid by.
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The female expressed her dislike with this in a creative manner and entered the building.
BEST. QUOTE. EVER.
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Welcome to TOUAMB, salina!
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Thanks for posting this. You have a difficult job and it's great that we got to hear your perspective.
Stick around, we're usually a lot more fun.
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Hey neat. Thanks for posting JD.
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I love how Paul makes friends everywhere he goes. His police friend even tags along to the message board about cartoon cats.
Recently I purchased a used deep fryer on craigslist for $10. The person selling it was near where my mother lives and she agreed to pick it up for me. Later she told me that the lady selling the fryer was "really nice" and that they were going to keep in touch.
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Now I'm certainly not afraid of the police.
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We can use more peace officers like salinapd.
Thanks for stopping by, Officer.
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Really though, Paul should have been arrested due to excessively awesome mustache. I mean, come on salinapd - we need to be protected here!
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Today, I saw a man who was...
Not a man with a moustache.
He was a moustache with a man.
Does this make any sense? It is the only way to explain it.
If he were to shave, he would not be shaving off the moustache.
He would be shaving off the man. The moustache would abide and the man would be later swept up off the floor and thrown away. The moustache would show up to the man's job the next day and, if anyone noticed at all, the notice would only be compliments.
"Hal, you're looking very... hm. You're looking very blowjob-and-a-raise today. New tie?"