The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Sports & Leisure => Topic started by: pmcd9 on September 29, 2007, 07:21:00 am
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that's what most folks say down here, but I'm not sure.
He's got lots of numbers, but if you play consistantly well without injury for 20 seasons you are bound to accumulate a lot of numbers. But is that the mark of a hall of famer? An above average journeyman that racks up big numbers by staying healthy and playing a long time?
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I hope not, but I don't really know. I mean, the doubters of him are essentially saying that Hank Aaron didn't really deserve the home run tecord because he only played for a really long time without getting hurt and never hit a lot of home runs in a season.
I just don't think he is an interesting player.
Also, I don't think "journeyman" describes him at all.
Basically, if an average player has a couple good seasons (check) and plays for a long time (check) he usually gets in. I just do not like him, or the other old Killer B's.
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I don't wanna sound like Pat here?
But I disqualify Biggio from the HoF for playing three seasons past when he should've retired, just to limp on into 3000 hits. You look at the last three seasons of his career and he's hitting .250... like, basically only being allowed to be an everyday starting player out of pity, to let him get 3000 hits.
I say "boo" to this.
I am a psychotic purist about baseball and I hate formerly-good players hanging around and playing like September call-ups for season after season after season, just to get to a number.
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do they even let national leaguers in the hall?
and if so, why?
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I like you.
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3,000 hits aside, the man has a career .281 / .363. / .433 line. If you exclude the past three seasons, it's .291 / .380 / .435. Better, but nothing that really screams Hall of Fame to me. Then again, he did play most of his career in the Astrodome, which is a pitcher's park.
Oh, he also has four Gold Gloves. I didn't realize that. Then again, Jeter has a few and he couldn't snag a ground ball three feet to his left. Soo....
I really have no idea. Who else retiring at the end of this year would he be going up against? Maybe Sheffield if his shoulder finally falls off. Any other first-balloters?
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He will be first ballot whether you think so or not. Middle infielders get a lot of leeway.
Compare Ryne Sandberg who didn't play as long:
.285 .344 .452
Also, Biggio was pretty much at his career average OPS in 2005 so saying he played three seasons too long is a stretch.
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Well, I would counter that by saying...
Since his major argument for the HoF is built on the fact that he was able to accumulate so many singles that he was able to get 3000 hits, OPS sort of goes out the window with the bathwater.
And I'll also add, I never would've voted for Ryne Sandberg, unless they opened a Hall of Very Good. Him, Biggio and Mattingly could be the first three guys inducted.
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Well, I would counter that by saying...
Since his major argument for the HoF is built on the fact that he was able to accumulate so many singles that he was able to get 3000 hits, OPS sort of goes out the window with the bathwater.
And I'll also add, I never would've voted for Ryne Sandberg, unless they opened a Hall of Very Good. Him, Biggio and Mattingly could be the first three guys inducted.
That doesn't make any sense. I'm saying he's comparable with other HOF middle infielders in terms of average production per year and superior in terms of accumulation. You can't just say "Oh, he's an accumulator so the averages can't count in his favor as well."
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My feeling on the Hall of Fame is that you need at least three seasons of being one of the best at... something. Biggio's never been in the elite, IMO. Being very good for a long time gets you most of the way, but you have to be transcendent at some point to be Hall of Fame material.
Being top ten every year without being top five once isn't HoF-worthy to me.
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My feeling on the Hall of Fame is that you need at least three seasons of being one of the best at... something. Biggio's never been in the elite, IMO. Being very good for a long time gets you most of the way, but you have to be transcendent at some point to be Hall of Fame material.
Being top ten every year without being top five once isn't HoF-worthy to me.
I gave you a tiny can for the rhetorical quality of this post.
It has nothing to do with the content. I don't really give a shit about the topic.
However, your post clearly and concisely elucidates the reasons for your position. You do something vital to a strong argument -- you set out your standards (your axioms, your postulates) first and do it in a plain, straightforward manner.
Then you implicitly cite facts which support your premise (i.e. Biggio isn't a Hall of Famer) in a subtle but convincing manner. Compelling stuff.
Congratulations! As a professional rhetorician, this Tiny Can of Dr. Pepper represents my salute to your argumentative skills. Enjoy.
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That is either the most genuine or the most condescending can-giving post ever. There can be no middle ground.
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That is either the most genuine or the most condescending can-giving post ever. There can be no middle ground.
It's entirely genuine.
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My feeling on the Hall of Fame is that you need at least three seasons of being one of the best at... something. Biggio's never been in the elite, IMO. Being very good for a long time gets you most of the way, but you have to be transcendent at some point to be Hall of Fame material.
Being top ten every year without being top five once isn't HoF-worthy to me.
Are you talking about the same guy who is number one all time in national league for HBP? Didn't think so.
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One of my favorite lesser-known baseball blogs is Plunk Biggio (http://plunkbiggio.blogspot.com/), a site that managed to follow Biggio's quest for hit-by-pitch immortaility with an absurd but entertaining level of statistical detail. Now that site is shutting down, for obvious reasons. I'm more saddened to see the site close than to see Biggio retire.
There's a new form of criteria for you: does a player deserve to make the Hall when you care more about trivia-based websites dedicated to him than the player himself?
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Congratulations! As a professional rhetorician, this Tiny Can of Dr. Pepper represents my salute to your argumentative skills. Enjoy.
Thanks. Being raised by and around lawyers has... effects. Seriously.
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One of my favorite lesser-known baseball blogs is Plunk Biggio (http://plunkbiggio.blogspot.com/), a site that managed to follow Biggio's quest for hit-by-pitch immortaility with an absurd but entertaining level of statistical detail. Now that site is shutting down, for obvious reasons. I'm more saddened to see the site close than to see Biggio retire.
There's a new form of criteria for you: does a player deserve to make the Hall when you care more about trivia-based websites dedicated to him than the player himself?
So no Jim Thome?
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Jumping into this thread as at best a half-assed baseball fan, I have to make one assertion: a dude who has gotten hit by that many pitches should get a free pass into the HoF, or at least a first-ballot slot. I mean, damn.
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All it shows is bad reaction time or an inability to get on base any other way.
And wearing an enormous freakin' elbow pad.
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Plus he's got the uniform that's two sizes too big. A lot of balls knick him. Also, a player is supposed to try get out of the way of a pitch. Every once in a while an umpire will refuse to grant a base if the player showed no attempt to get out of the way. Many players turn their back on pitches to act as if they're getting out of the way--when in fact they're giving the pitch a bigger target to hit. I'm pretty sure that Biggio does this a lot. It's borderline cheating.
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Yeah, this is why I was never in debate club.
"Fuck it, man, dude just played a long-ass time and got a lot of fuck*ng singles on mostly-bad teams. I ain't feeling it."
Or maybe it's just because it's baseball and I've watched so ridiculous an amount of baseball, so much more than anyone who isn't trying to make their living off of something baseball-related, that some preternatural part of me strictly believes that I'm just right and I ain't gotta debate it, I can just know by looking and knowing.
Like my instincts tell my rational mind:
"Don't worry, I got this one. It's baseball."
The same way they say it's Chinatown at the end of Chinatown, you know?
It's baseball, it's Chinatown, that's all you gotta say.
Hm.
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do they even let national leaguers in the hall?
and if so, why?
Excellent point.
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do they even let national leaguers in the hall?
and if so, why?
Eat a dick.
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John Smoltz wouldn't say that? Or is he not Hall-worthy?
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Excellent point.
I am certain you get this all the time, Rumjay, and I am certain that it has gotten annoying over time.
However, I mean this genuinely and as a genuinely huge compliment:
By right of lineage alone and also more, you are one of the very few people I internet-know who I could possibly imagine being more correct about a baseball thing than I am, on some given baseball topic.
If I met one of Kurt Vonnegut's children, I would feel the same about them and writing or et-cetera.
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John Smoltz wouldn't say that? Or is he not Hall-worthy?
Smoltz should get there, as will Mike Piazza, and Randy Johnson, and probably some other dudes who have played a good chunk of their careers in the NL. I just didn't feel like cataloging them all.
If you field, you HAVE to bat, and vice versa, you AL fuckers. It's how the game was meant to be played.
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Will Clark would be a first-ballot Hall of Very Gooder. I was honestly very surprised that he didn't get enough HOF votes in his first year to consider further consideration. Clark probably could've extended his career if he'd followed Raphael Palmeiro's example but I really think Will stayed clean. A little HGH here and there and he would've cleared 300 homers, 1500 RBI and 2500 hits. Not bad for a 15-year career.
As for Biggio's competition for HOF status, maybe Clemens will finally pack it in for realz after the Indians eliminate the Yankees next week. Smoltz, Glavine and Trevor Hoffman have all got to be on the edge of retirement. And who knows if Bonds will stick around. He has his precious little record and I can't imagine he still loves playing the game (and putting up with the media) so much that he'd toil as a DH for some non-west coast team.
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If you field, you HAVE to bat, and vice versa, you AL fuckers. It's how the game was meant to be played.
Except watching a pitcher hit is the most cringe-worthy part about professional baseball. Tradition is all well and good, but that shit is hideous.
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Except watching a pitcher hit is the most cringe-worthy part about professional baseball. Tradition is all well and good, but that shit is hideous.
So whose fault is this? Why don't they put in the time to get better? They're a bunch of lazy bastards, thats why. No one expects them to hit well, they get paid either way, so they eat seeds in the bullpen and work once every 3 days.
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Robbie Alomar?
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Suspicions, man. Suspicions.
[no]
I was talking about the AOL IM chats between MLB players on the Dugout. But Thome would get my vote. I didn't realize there were suspicions? How strong are these?
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He just sort of has the HGH body. That's about it.
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I am willing to overlook Jim Thome's HGH body on the grounds that he is one of the most pleasant human beings in all of baseball.
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do they even let national leaguers in the hall?
and if so, why?
Eat a dick.
Except watching a pitcher hit is the most cringe-worthy part about professional baseball. Tradition is all well and good, but that shit is hideous.
So whose fault is this? Why don't they put in the time to get better? They're a bunch of lazy bastards, thats why. No one expects them to hit well, they get paid either way, so they eat seeds in the bullpen and work once every 3 days.
But don't forget chicks dig the long ball. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ltD21rYWVw)
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Damn, that was awesome. I never saw that ad before. Maybe it was a St Louis thing?
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All Star appearances are pretty worthless imo. For instance, Frank Thomas only has five all-star appearances despite 2 MVPs, a second-place MVP finish (lost to a roided up Giambi), two third-place finishes, and a fourth-place finish.
Robbie Alomar should be a lock. I think a lot of people forget just how good he was.
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Robbie Alomar didn't win any Silver Sluggers at catcher on account of that was his brother, Sandy Jr.
Second base? Four of 'em. Second-most all-time among second basemen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Alomar
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Jim Thome is largely a DH in my mind and is hence barred from HoF consideration in my mind.
Massive points are given for players who leave at the top of their game instead of lingering to limp to 3000 hits or 500 home runs or whatever, massive points are taken away for players who can't even field at one of the easier positions such as first base or right field.
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All Star appearances are pretty worthless imo.
I would say the same of Gold Gloves, but more so.
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Ah, really, both the outfield corners are pretty easy for anyone reasonably athletic.
Not me, of course, but then I'm in no way close to reasonably athletic.
An athlete's legs and an athlete's arm and everything else to playing an outfield corner is mental training. If Shawn Green can be allowed to play right field on a major league team, it can't be that hard, within the spectrum of realizing that playing on a major league level is gonna be pretty hard to begin with.
Playing an average acceptable-but-not-spectacular first base or an outfield corner defensively gets you no bonus points by my count.
If you're a Gold Glover at any position, of course, it's a different matter but... yeah.
The DH is a load of shit position.
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Ah, really, both the outfield corners are pretty easy for anyone reasonably athletic.
True, except for the throw from left to third for preventing a sacrifice fly from advancing a running from 2nd to 3rd. When there's a right fielder with a cannon arm, that can be one of the most dramatic plays in baseball.
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True enough but... like...
That's then an above-average corner outfielder. The cannon arm makes you more than a defensively-neutral player.
Whole 'nother set of beans. The spectacular defensive abilities go outside of this discussion.
It is VERY hard to play first base as well as Kevin Youklis does, for example, no matter what your athletic skills.
But if you're a decent athlete it is relatively easy to play a PASSABLE firstbase.
Ditto for the outfield corners. If you have the cannon, bonus points abound.
But if you can hit and you can't even play an ACCEPTABLE first or left or right, you aren't a baseball player, you're a carnival act.
Boo to the DH. Booooooo.
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That's then an above-average corner outfielder. The cannon arm makes you more than a defensively-neutral player.
Whole 'nother set of beans. The spectacular defensive abilities go outside of this discussion.
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But if you can hit and you can't even play an ACCEPTABLE first or left or right, you aren't a baseball player, you're a carnival act.
Boo to the DH. Booooooo.
Oh. Oh, I agree completely. Shows me for coming into a thread late.
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But isn't it worthwhile to say that since the designated hitter IS a position, it is worthy of HOF consideration?
As a lifelong Seattle Mariners fan, I plan on being in Cooperstown in a few years when Edgar Martinez is making his acceptance speech.
Since the DH is a valid position, I just don't see any way that you can prevent someone that was the best at that position for 10+ years to enter the Hall.
This also applies to Frank Thomas and Jim Thome, and possibly guys like David Ortiz, Travis Hafner in the future.
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YES YES YES. As a fellow M's fan, YES. I think Edgar deserves to be in the Hall, but I'm hard-pressed to think of another DH that does.
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True enough but... like...
That's then an above-average corner outfielder. The cannon arm makes you more than a defensively-neutral player.
Whole 'nother set of beans. The spectacular defensive abilities go outside of this discussion.
It is VERY hard to play first base as well as Kevin Youklis does, for example, no matter what your athletic skills.
But if you're a decent athlete it is relatively easy to play a PASSABLE firstbase.
Ditto for the outfield corners. If you have the cannon, bonus points abound.
But if you can hit and you can't even play an ACCEPTABLE first or left or right, you aren't a baseball player, you're a carnival act.
Boo to the DH. Booooooo.
The thing about 1B/LF/RF is that if you're playing reeeaaally great there, you probably shouldn't be playing there. For example, the only reason Youk plays first is because the Red Sox have Mike Lowell at third, an elite defensive player. On most other teams, Youk would be playing third. That's why he's such a great 1B is because he belongs higher up on the defensive spectrum.
It's a similar situation with Ichiro. He played RF for all those years before switching to center when that was his natural position all along.
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True, except for the throw from left to third for preventing a sacrifice fly from advancing a running from 2nd to 3rd. When there's a right fielder with a cannon arm, that can be one of the most dramatic plays in baseball.
More often than that a good right fielder can keep a runner from going first to third on a single.
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IMHO
Right. At least at this point in time--left field is the haven for the butchers when DH and 1B are unavailable. Chicago's got two of them in Alfonso Soriano (good athlete, good arm, bad fielding instincts) and Josh Fields (not as fast, but otherwise ditto).
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More often than that a good right fielder can keep a runner from going first to third on a single.
More often, perhaps, but I was speaking of drama. Keeping a speedy hitter honest is blue-collar RF play. Killing a sacrifice fly advance is heroic.
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I am certain you get this all the time, Rumjay, and I am certain that it has gotten annoying over time.
However, I mean this genuinely and as a genuinely huge compliment:
By right of lineage alone and also more, you are one of the very few people I internet-know who I could possibly imagine being more correct about a baseball thing than I am, on some given baseball topic.
If I met one of Kurt Vonnegut's children, I would feel the same about them and writing or et-cetera.
As I go to a women's college, people rarely care about Dad's occupation (except for the fame quotient), so it's not a tiresome question. But I'm afraid that while I know the game and perspectives of looking at it fairly well, I don't know a whole lot about the current game, if that makes sense.
What I can offer you is this: Biggio is (was) one of Dad's favorite current players. I'm not sure why, but that much I know is true.
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Wait, what is this about your dad?
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Wait, what is this about your dad?
This is my dad. Short version: he's a well-known baseball expert. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_James)
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What the shit! How did I not know this already? I'm a pretty huge Bill James fan. Hell, I just mentioned the "defensive spectrum" a few posts ago.
I feel I should have known this already. I feel ashamed for having not.
Edit: Please don't tell me this means you're rooting for the Red Sox in the playoffs.
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What I can offer you is this: Biggio is (was) one of Dad's favorite current players. I'm not sure why, but that much I know is true.
Which leads to my follow up question. Regardless of the opinion of this message board whether he should he make it (a unanimous no). Do you think that he will?
I don't know how membership in the hall of fame is decided, but I think it's a panel of experts. My guess is that Pops has a say in the matter.
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:: As I go to a women's college, people rarely care about Dad's occupation (except for the fame quotient), so it's not a tiresome question.
Plus, I suppose, the fact that it's a fairly common last name helps.
If someone in my family got famous, there aren't a whole lotta Cecconis in America. Most of 'em either stayed in Italy or somewhere else in Europe, like England or Germany. If a Cecconi got real famous, even one I wasn't related to in any way, I'd probably get it a lot.
Hell, people ask me if I'm related to Madonna fairly often, just because my last name sounds very close to hers in pronounciation, despite being transliterated to English with a different spelling.
:: But I'm afraid that while I know the game and perspectives of looking at it fairly well, I don't know a whole lot about the current game, if that makes sense.
To be fair, there are stretches of time where I wasn't paying attention to the entire game, just to my Mets.
Perhaps Biggio had his best years when I was doing two-thousand-dollars worth of damage to my dormfloor's lounge after the Mets lost the Subway Series and so on. When you're a big guy but you're not prone to violence, boy oh boy, you really scare people the few times you show that propensity.
Pretty much, if your pop says Biggio deserves it, I gotta at least give Craig a second consideration.
I still say I know more about the current Mets than anyone alive, more than Willie Randolph or Omar Minaya, but for the other 29 teams, I'll have to reconsider my position.
As for P-Money's question:
The main inductees are picked by a vote by selected members of the Baseball Writer's Association of America... basically, the highest men on the totem pole in the "union" for baseball newspaper writers pick 'em.
The Veterans Committee... for picking old time players and so forth... are comprised of Hall of Fame players, though I think that's changed more than a few times.
How other type people get in... umpires, executives, owners, sports journalists... I dunno. I think they might form special committees or it's on a case by case basis or something like that.
I think that has changed a few times too.
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Plus, I suppose, the fact that it's a fairly common last name helps.
Also the fact that I go by my mother's last name as well as my father's (Mom kept her name when they married because she's a feminist like that).
I don't know how membership in the hall of fame is decided, but I think it's a panel of experts. My guess is that Pops has a say in the matter.
The main inductees are picked by a vote by selected members of the Baseball Writer's Association of America... basically, the highest men on the totem pole in the "union" for baseball newspaper writers pick 'em.
The Veterans Committee... for picking old time players and so forth... are comprised of Hall of Fame players, though I think that's changed more than a few times.
How other type people get in... umpires, executives, owners, sports journalists... I dunno. I think they might form special committees or it's on a case by case basis or something like that.
I think that has changed a few times too.
QFT. Dad is not a fan of the people who do choose the player who get in, let's put it that way. He dislikes them enough to have written a whole book about what's wrong with them (http://www.amazon.com/Whatever-Happened-Hall-Fame-James/dp/0684800888/ref=pd_sim_b_shvl_img_1/104-0461146-3271158) (which, btw, is dedicated to me).
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If someone in my family got famous, there aren't a whole lotta Cecconis in America. Most of 'em either stayed in Italy or somewhere else in Europe, like England or Germany. If a Cecconi got real famous, even one I wasn't related to in any way, I'd probably get it a lot.
I always answer Yes when I am asked if I am related to a certain film director. "yeah, that's my dad." people freak out for like half a second and then realize I'm fuck*ng with them.
His name rhymes with Jim Hurton?
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Y'see, I ain't got Cooperstown seniority around here anymore.
I grew up thirty miles north of Cooperstown and in most situations, that pretty much solidifies my seniority on that subject anywhere I wanna go. When I visited again this summer, while visiting my parents, people's kids would ask them questions and the dads would shrug and then the people working at the Hall would shrug and then I would blurt out the answers like a dork.
I was wearing my Reyes home jersey and upon my answering of a question, a dude in a Phillies hat said:
"I don't usually talk to Mets fans but you're all right."
My friend Amanda, who was with me, looked at me as if she realized that this was a place where I was Basically Awesome.
In the Hall of Fame, I was the coolest kid in school. If only she had seen me do that back in high school, before I had my steadylady Adrian in my life, perhaps I would've had sex in high school. haha.
You now got the Cooperstown seniority here, Rumjay, having had a book about it dedicated to you.
I also hid one of the few remaining Little Falls Mets tickets I hold in my possession, in my wallet, in the one thing I'd probably still have with me if my apatrtment burned down, in the crack of an exhibit while I was there. I'm pretty sure it was the one I always kept in my hospital bracelet, when under surgery, when my heart stopped from anaphalatic shock... that I held in my hand and made myself stop, the one time I almost killed myself as a teenager.
There will be evidence that the place I grew up in mattered for a coupla years, when I was a kid, there in the Hall of Fame.
However hidden, however small, however easily overlooked.
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Your dad is Hallburton? No way!
Myself, I've really only seen my last name on NHL players. I don't know why that is.
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Guys, go here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/) for geeking out on baseball stats if you don't already. When you tear yourself away sometime next week and your eyes unblur you'll thank me.
This page gives a nice Biggio/Alomar comparison for your reading pleasure.
(http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp.cgi?I=alomaro01:Roberto+Alomar&st=int&compage=36&age=36)
Those numbers are surprisingly similar. The averages are all pretty much the same (except for the steals and triples), though Alomar broke in to the bigs younger.
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No one outside of two families (my dads and his brothers) has my last name. Seriously. My only male cousin is gay and I am the only male in my family so, well, I hate kids and my name is going down with me, barring an accident.
(I don't hate kids, but I can't have that responsibility).
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No one outside of two families (my dads and his brothers) has my last name. Seriously. My only male cousin is gay and I am the only male in my family so, well, I hate kids and my name is going down with me, barring an accident.
Um dude, I'm pretty sure that there are hell of Hernandezes in Mexico.
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I'm also the end of the line for my family, more or less; there are plenty of us in the entire rest of the world, but it never quite hit America in the way it did most of the rest of the places the Dutch colonized. Also, we are remotely descended from an Important Historical Person, and we get asked about it (accurately) more often than you'd think.
Going to college where I did was also fun, because a lot of people just assumed that "Dutch last name" + "going to college in western Massachusetts" = "has to be from Albany or upstate New York." This was especially amusing the year I was actually living with an upstater with an Anglo last name.
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I wish Gold Gloves really meant something, but they are too often bullshit. I think a given player's first GG is usually meaningful, but after that they tend to just give it to the same guy every year unless he gets hurt or has an absolute meltdown. It helps to be good offensively, too; they gave one to Bobby Abreu a couple years ago, and frankly he's a shitty outfielder.
BTW, here's the view from our seats at Citizen's Bank Park yesterday. Great atmosphere, lousy result.
(http://www.bigfool.com/baseball/cbp304.jpg)
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Um dude, I'm pretty sure that there are hell of Hernandezes in Mexico.
But do they all do coke and field first base as well as ours?
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I see my surname on basketball (http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?ep=0&phrase=john%20wallace%20basketball%20knicks&index=0&mid=351028) and football (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Kfu7AwINoj8z2M:http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/295121.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c%3DViewImages%26k%3D2%26d%3D17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0ED96D9183BB49B05E5284831B75F48EF45) players (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:DXPEsP4uAAU06M:http://www.seahawks.com/ConFiles/Con6956/Wallace560_0705.jpg). Its unlikely we share any ancestors however, as my branch of the family came over in the mid 1800s and was confined to Northern states until my uncle moved to Virginia in the '70s (where they call him a damn Yankee and mutter darkly when he wears his blue forage kepi (http://www.fun-shop.com/show_image.php?im=http://www.fun-shop.com/images/08hats/21391u.jpg&size=300)).
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Every time I feel proud of having a fairly unique last name (McInnis), I remember that my grandpa was adopted and his real family's last name was Moore. That one's quite a bit more common, and to add insult to injury, it's a named shared by a pretty historic douchebag. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moore)
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YES YES YES. As a fellow M's fan, YES. I think Edgar deserves to be in the Hall, but I'm hard-pressed to think of another DH that does.
Let's define what makes a player a DH. Paul Molitor, Eddie Murray and Dave Winfield all used the DH rule to collect 3,000 hits. It's likely that none of them could've been worth a spot in the starting nine if they still had to play defense for nine innings, 150 times a year so I'd say they earned their tickets to Cooperstown as Designated Hitters.
Jim Thome might be a DH now, but he's only played 20-some percent of his career games as a DH. He was almost always a fielder with the Indians and he didn't have a choice as a Phillie. A guy like Travis Hafner, on the other hand, will probably play 90%+ as a DH over his career with just enough 1B starts in Interleague Play to stay eligible in fantasy leagues. If Hafner finishes with career number similar to, or better than, Thome's, doesn't he deserve the same consideration from HOF voters?
(This post brought to you by a guy who really likes Travis Hafner)
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I'm pretty lenient on the Designated Hitters in the Hall of Fame debate. It helps that I was born well after the rule went into effect and grew up a fan of not only an AL team, but a team that contained the greatest DH of all time.
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I guess that I just am the type that deals in "should" and "shouldn't" instead of "is" and "is not".
The designated hitter shouldn't exist and if you're so incomplete a player that you had to spend a significant portion of your career, you're not a Hall of Famer. And, indeed, even you had a position for the majority of your career, time as a DH should be one of the factors going against you. Not an automatic out but one of your negatives.
We're talking about The Hall of Fame, here. The best players ever.
If you couldn't play a defensive position for most of your career, how could you possibly belong with the best players ever?
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I understand your point. But at the same time, having a DH means we get the double satisfaction of seeing guys like David Ortiz be able to hit while also avoiding the terror of half the league's pitchers going up to the plate.
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I... I LOVE watching a pitcher hit.
Love it.
There's nothing more awesome than a pitcher lacing a single outta nowhere and rattling the opposing team.
There's nothing more awesome than an "automatic out" turning into a well-placed sac bunt.
Or the humiliation of walking the opposing pitcher! That is an awesome humiliation!
And the game-changing ability of the handful of pitchers who can hit .240 or better, man, I love that shit.
It make the game all the more like chess to me.
The DH sucks so much of the strategy out of the game.
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I... I LOVE watching a pitcher hit.
Love it.
There's nothing more awesome than a pitcher lacing a single outta nowhere and rattling the opposing team.
There's nothing more awesome than an "automatic out" turning into a well-placed sac bunt.
Or the humiliation of walking the opposing pitcher! That is an awesome humiliation!
And the game-changing ability of the handful of pitchers who can hit .240 or better, man, I love that shit.
It make the game all the more like chess to me.
The DH sucks so much of the strategy out of the game.
I'm an AL team fan but I agree totally with this post.
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Agreed. The ability to hit well for a pitcher is half of what makes Livan Hernandez so awesome. And how about that Micah Owings dude?
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Agreed. The ability to hit well for a pitcher is half of what makes Livan Hernandez so awesome. And how about that Micah Owings dude?
I wonder what the other half is, because I certainly know it isn't his pitching ability.
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Well, his pitching ability has been rather mediocre this year, yes. But in 2005 when he was with the Nats, damned if he wasn't my favorite player. Changed speeds as well as anyone in the game, ate up innings, and you just felt like the team was going to win every time out. I was at the game where he threw 150 (yes one hundred fifty) pitches. Plus, he's a big fat guy, and I like the big fat guys, being one myself. (See also Daryle Ward and Dmitri Young.)
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Travis Hafner will never make the hall of fame because he didn't really get into the swing of things until he was 27--the prime of his career, basically. He's 30 and only has 142 home runs.
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Travis Hafner will never make the hall of fame because he didn't really get into the swing of things until he was 27--the prime of his career, basically. He's 30 and only has 142 home runs.
True enough, but this morning I'm feeling no Indians-related pain. They have a shot at the Series and ARod has to wait at least another year. Shit be good this fine day.
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Guess who made it into the hall of fame.
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10923766_989763734387013_6762349704148254516_n.jpg?oh=a19bb503487f09db92e45be74e53bf7b&oe=5545082A)
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https://twitter.com/oldhossradbourn/status/278631540920025088
"#90: C. Biggio. In my day, a man hit by 285 pitches dies 285 times." -- Old Hoss Radbourn
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Smoltz should get there, as will Mike Piazza, and Randy Johnson, and probably some other dudes who have played a good chunk of their careers in the NL. I just didn't feel like cataloging them all.
Pretty good prediction from 7 years ago, Mr. Mayor. Didn't Piazza miss by like 28 votes or something?
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Yeah, Piazza got like 65%. Not sure who's coming on the ballot next year, but he'll likely get in then. Part of the problem is limiting voters to 10 names. If there's an argument to be made for people who did NOT vote for Pedro or the Big Unit, it's that they were confident that those guys would get in and they wanted to use their limited votes on someone else. (The other case is usually "He was mean to me once," which is like, whatever, you big baby.)
Smoltz is amusing because a lot of people are comparing him to Schilling and Mussina and finding him actually behind those other two on paper. Having Maddux and Glavine get in before him helped Smoltz a great deal, I think. And maybe now having Smoltz in will help Schilling and Mussina, if there's a beneficial comparison to be made.
Of course, I still think Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and Clemens should be in. I'm a realist like that.
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Are you sure about Sosa on that? Except for a short peak that included chest bumps and finger kisses to some lady I'm not sure he reaches the positional standards.
609 career home runs, 8th all-time? I think that's pretty good.
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I think they should be putting less people in the hall. 1-2 per year tops. That way when you get in it really means something. Instead we get guys like Biggio who had solid careers, but nobody will remember in 30 years.
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Man, the Baseball Hall of Fame exists for two reasons. One, to support the economy of Cooperstown, New York and Two to give baseball fans one more fuck*ng thing to endlessly argue over.
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Yeah. It's the Hall of FAME, anyway, not the Hall of Comparisons to Some Arbitrary Stat Lines. And McGwire and Sosa were famous as all get out for a while there.
(BTW, Ben Lindbergh put together a list of all the "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of..." bits he could find. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22248)