The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: jay-ell on September 29, 2007, 09:23:26 pm
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Here's an interesting factoid I ran across today:
Stay-at-home moms outnumber their male counterparts by a proportion of four and a half to one. In fact, there are more than twice as many men in state and federal prisons than there are stay-at-home Dads in the US.
That's 5.5 million SAHMs, 98,000 SAHDs, & 1.98 million men in prison.
Questions: Is this more a function of the wage gap between men and women, or is it the result of societal pressure on women to take responsibility for the domestic side of life? Is this the "natural order," or is it a social construct designed by men to the detriment of women?
Men, would you stay home with your kids if your wife were able to provide adequate financial support? Women, would you think less of a man who wanted to take on a more domestic role while you brought home the bacon? Has anyone here lived in (or did you grow up in) a family with non-traditional gender roles?
I have thoughts, but I want to save them until a few other people have chimed in. And I'm willing to split off a thread on the prison population if that's an interest as well.
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my parents, for the first few years of my life, raised me basically equally. My dad was bitter that I was the only one of the three of us who ever, for instance, called that I wanted my Daddy when I hurt myself or was sad as a kid. By the time my brother was born, my dad was working hell of hours and my mom had gotten her PhD, so, he was mostly raised by my mom. Ditto for my sister.
I mean, I don't know. I read an interesting study where they said that the people who scored as happiest out of married women were women who said that they had a marriage "between equals" and etc, who still had careers, the men did housework and kid-raising work equally... but the man brought home the majority of the family income.
Personally, I would kind of feel like I was failing on some level if I were not providing for my family. I am aware that this is largely due to cultural shit, but, I mean... these are basically the gender roles we have evolved into.
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I grew up with a stay at home mom.
I'd sooner be murdered by hungry goats than be one.
I have no interest in giving up my deeply loved, middle/low income earning profession to allow my partner to stay at home either.
But these are more reasons why I don't want to be a parent, and don't really relate to gender roles and parenting.
While I have no problem with stay at home dads in theory, I must admit that my father was so checked out as a parent that it's really hard for me to conceive of any man being the primary caregiver to the children. I know men who are equal partners in childrearing, and I'm both confused and impressed by this, just 'cause I didn't know it could happen. Apart from providing financially for us, my dad wasn't part of the picture, so... I don't have a template of how that would work. Even though I know my SO is probably more capable and nurturing than I am... it's like imagining him wearing a dress - not impossible, not even unacceptable - just not something I would expect from him. I suppose this is why there aren't that many stay at home dads - there's not many folks who have models of this, so it takes a daring leap to do it.
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I wouldn't be interested in giving up my career to raise kids, nor would I expect my theoretical baby-momma to do so. My ideal situation would be us both working reduced hours while the kid was young but that would either mean really sacrificing career growth or having a pretty solid career beforehand.
My only theory on why more women end up being the primary care giver (besides the whole society thing) is that (as far as I understand) women basically can't work for the last couple of months or pregnancy and this just ends up being the first step on the whole slippery slope.
Of course some people also think that staying home and looking after a kid is the most important thing they can do in their life. More power to them but that ain't for me and for that matter I'm not sure how I'd feel about being with someone like that.
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my mom is fuck*ng brilliant and that is what she did. So, you know, I am inclined to think that that is a cool thing to do.
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I think it's likely a combination of all of the above.
If salaries are inequal, the person with the lower salary is the logical choice to stay at home, both because the family loses less income and it will be easier to regain that lower income upon a return to the workforce. I guess my oldest sister is the most recent example I can offer. She's about 2 years younger than her husband, so when she finished law school he was already working his way past the "break in" phase at his firm. When she became pregnant for the first time, she was an associate and he was a junior partner, so not only would they have lost the larger income, he would've had to give up the partnership, so he'd have had to work his way up again upon returning to the job market. Maybe if they'd been the same age it would have been different, because they likely would have been in very similar financial situations.
Men are defined by what we do, or at least that's what it feels like. If we don't have a job, people wonder what's wrong with us -- what horrible secret makes us unemployable. Every archetype we look to is a provider. It isn't what Ward Cleaver did, or Howard Cunningham, or Bill Cosby. Heck, "paternity leave" as a concept is just now gaining traction, and it's still looked on oddly. Even though I don't think that any time spent with a child is wasted time, a lot of men seem to think that time not making (or spending) money is time that's cheapened somehow.
I personally wouldn't mind being a stay at home dad, but since the dad thing isn't happening it really isn't an issue for me. I certainly would've liked for my father to be home more, but seeing as how he's not really able to take care of himself when left alone I'd be scared to think of how he would have raised us. My brother in law can't really cook on my sister's level, but I'm pretty sure he could handle the load if given the opportunity. Maybe my sister's kids will see a different pattern when they grow up.
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Men are defined by what we do, or at least that's what it feels like. If we don't have a job, people wonder what's wrong with us -- what horrible secret makes us unemployable. Every archetype we look to is a provider. It isn't what Ward Cleaver did, or Howard Cunningham, or Bill Cosby. Heck, "paternity leave" as a concept is just now gaining traction, and it's still looked on oddly. Even though I don't think that any time spent with a child is wasted time, a lot of men seem to think that time not making (or spending) money is time that's cheapened somehow.
This raises an interesting point: that almost all of the Mr. Mom stories I've heard, at least according to my fallible memory, have involved men who had flexible vocational ambitions and often pursued them while parenting -- freelance writers, artists, musicians, things like that. I can't remember hearing about a single case of a stay-at-home dad treating parenting like his vocation, in the way that the classical stay-at-home mom does. I'm sure dads like this are out there (and I'm sure there are plenty of stay-at-home moms who are pursuing other ambitions), but I think there is a belief that parenting-as-vocation is strictly female, as opposed to parenting-as-necessity.
My own experience with this is kinda similar. My parents both worked until I was in middle school, when my dad decided to quit his job and go back to graduate school, making my mom the principal wage-earner in my family throughout my high-school years. While Mom went on maternity leave, she's otherwise been in her occupation (elemental special-ed teaching) for her entire adult life, barring one weird year in retail; my dad's been more flexible, and I was in college before he finally became employed at a living wage again. My dad's never had a problem with Mom being a provider -- but I wonder how much of that was because he was actively engaged in his vocation while he wasn't one.
This has come up in my own thoughts about settling down. Simply put, I'm pretty career-minded and intend to pursue a professional occupation, and the Gentleman Caller is a temp-and-office-work "whatever puts food on the table" sort of person. I don't have a problem with that, but he seems to be a little uncomfortable with the idea of my being the main wage-earner in our theoretical household -- a situation that would also leave him, most likely, being the one who would doing most of the childcare. He says it's because he's older than I am, but I suspect it's a lot more gender-based than he's willing to admit, and it frustrates me.
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This raises an interesting point: that almost all of the Mr. Mom stories I've heard, at least according to my fallible memory, have involved men who had flexible vocational ambitions and often pursued them while parenting -- freelance writers, artists, musicians, things like that. I can't remember hearing about a single case of a stay-at-home dad treating parenting like his vocation, in the way that the classical stay-at-home mom does. I'm sure dads like this are out there (and I'm sure there are plenty of stay-at-home moms who are pursuing other ambitions), but I think there is a belief that parenting-as-vocation is strictly female, as opposed to parenting-as-necessity.
Wow, good point...never thought about it that way, but it really is true. The two SAHDs I've known were a freelance writer/musician and a graphic designer. And the graphic designer went back to work full-time after a year because he didn't like being the main childcare provider.
It took me a long time to reach the point where when people asked me what I "do," that I would answer "graduate student" instead of "housewife." Even now I say describe myself as part-time grad student, full-time Mom -- usually with an explanation that "my son is autistic so he takes a little more attention than most kids." I think this comes from a sense of guilt on both sides -- guilt that I'm doing anything at all besides raising my child, having grown up in a hyper-traditional "dad goes to work and mom stays home and goes slowly insane" kind of family. But then there's this sense that I should be *doing* something with my life, that I'm somehow rejecting the gains in equality made by four generations of feminist thinkers and activists by choosing kids over career. Pedro recently read "The Feminine Mistake," and he's convinced that if I don't go back to work within a year after Red is born I will be unemployable and miserable.
Still, there is nothing I would rather do than be at home with my kids right now. I feel sorry for Pedro because, as devoted as he is, he misses so much of Little P's life between 9 AM and 5 PM. He says he looks forward to the day when I can support the family and he can be the primary caregiver -- but that's not going to happen while the kids are still small (unless we have another one when we're 45). I imagine it's different when the last child goes to Kindergarten and you have six hours to burn every day of the week, but honestly I really enjoy being a stay at home parent 98% of the time. I know Pedro would love it, too, and I would not have a problem with supporting him if he felt it was his vocation and if I could make a living wage in my field.
BUT: I feel like I've sold out. Here I am, an overeducated woman of many advantages, spurning a career because -- just perhaps -- I find it easier to just let a man support me. I think that the happy housewife is a myth and a social construct that holds women back and limits their choices. I've read the Feminine Mystique. I research women in the workforce, for pete's sake. It feels a little dishonest to be a woman outside the workforce looking in the window and writing about what I see. Most importantly, I have a man who says he'd be willing to be a stay at home dad, and I keep putting him off because...I don't trust him to do things like I would? ...I'm afraid of going back into the workforce? ...I'm afraid of the "career mom" image? ...all of the above?
So I think this is why, when one parent decides to stay home, it's usually the woman. I think it's partially the wage gap, but I think a bigger part of it is the "guilt gap." How many men feel guilty about leaving their kids home all day so they can put food on the table? Even single moms who have no choice have guilt about leaving their kids in daycare. But I wouldn't feel bad leaving my kids at home if I knew they were with their Dad.
On the other hand, I think many SAHMs, like me, take advantage of the fact that mothers of young children are all but expected to stay home so that we can use the kids as an excuse to pursue flexible vocations, like V pointed out. I think societal pressures cheat men out of this option, and women aren't speaking up about it because four generations of feminist thought has finally given us the freedom to choose family, career, or both. Most men don't have those options, and why shouldn't they? True, men are defined by what they do. But aren't women? If "mom" can be my job title, why can't "dad" be Pedro's?
In short (too late), I think that the reason there aren't more stay at home dads is because feminism has failed men, even while it has helped women. We were promised equality; we got higher expectations across the board. We were promised choice; we got guilt no matter what we chose. We were promised freedom; we got the freedom to pursue happiness but nobody seems to be able to find it.
My thoughts. Yours?
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It seems to me that matter what you do, whether you stay home with your kids or go back to work, someone will hate you. We're still going through such a big change in society over these issues that people are insecure with their choices and take it out on people who do differently. You can't please everyone, so forget about trying and do what works for your family.
As for men... they may eventually catch up and feel they have more flexibility in their choices but in the meantime, you know, women had it so shitty for so long, if we have some advantage over them for a while, it doesn't seem that unfair to me. And don't forget - we still make less money, on average, if we do work, so the flexibility we have is obviously not coming for free.
But, what I think is important not to forget is that a woman needs to at least have the ABILITY to support herself (and any children) if it becomes necessary. My sister's husband just left her and now she has a four year old and no skills that would allow her to get a job with a salary they could live on. Even if you think your relationship is perfect and that would never happen, people get sick, get hit by trucks... life is uncertain.
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yeah, I always awkward when I do something like...
maybe I tell a story about how often we get letters addressed to "Dr and Mrs" instead of "Dr and Mr" and how it makes my mom so mad. And then they say "oh, wow, your mom is a doctor?"
"yeah. well... not a medical doctor. she has her PhD."
"oh. what does she do?"
"well. She does a lot of volunteer stuff... and she is a stay-at-home-mom?"
"oh."
now she is starting to Sub at my old school, though. and I feel like this might eventually turn into a more permanent position if she wants it to?
this one time a girl told me that my mom was a failure because she didn't have a career. I came so close to slapping that bitch. so. fuck*ng. close.
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My dad had an engineering firm, and it was in our house, and my mom worked for him. They were both around all the time.
It sucked. I would have paid any money for my dad to be gone a lot more hours of the day.
As a dad with three daughters, I know that they prefer mom in a lot of situations, and I can live with that. I don't feel like I'm missing that much while at work (Lucky to work one mile from home, though) and I have that thing going on where I feel my role as a provider away from the home is pretty important too. I go to school, parent teacher things, I help with homework, coach soccer and do a lot of things with and for the kids.
I hate the whole concept of Mr Mom. We are both the parents, we have established our parenting roles and responsibilities, and I'm sure that dynamic is different in every family - It would be tough to get used to staying home with them if Mom was the primary breadwinner, but I would in a heartbeat if it is the best thing for the family.
Speaking of the best thing for the family, stay tuned over the next few months for grim happenings over here. More later.
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Speaking of the best thing for the family, stay tuned over the next few months for grim happenings over here. More later.
Grim happenings? Oh dear.
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How many men feel guilty about leaving their kids home all day so they can put food on the table?
I think a more common male feeling would be guilt for not going out and providing for the family. I know my dad always regretted that he worked long hours when my brother and I were young but to him going out and working were a greater responsibility. Possibly some men feel that since they would enjoy staying home it wouldn't be fulfilling their obligation of sharing the responsibility of raising kids? Not sure if that makes sense, just a random thought.
Re: JL not trusting Pedro to do stuff right and AD hating on 'mr. Mom' I think that if a dad was the full time care giver things would work differently, this wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing but since men and women often have different values it's fairly likely and brings up an intersting point: Possibly the trust of the mother will be the most important barrier to overcome for full time dads (and for that matter for the mums themselves who want to return to the workplace)? Particularly those in a relationship with a woman with a strong maternal instinct.
Speaking of the best thing for the family, stay tuned over the next few months for grim happenings over here. More later.
Yikes.
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Speaking of the best thing for the family, stay tuned over the next few months for grim happenings over here. More later.
I assume you're talking about taking another job/moving (possibly to DC) even though you don't really want to
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It sucked. I would have paid any money for my dad to be gone a lot more hours of the day.
This is an interesting perspective. Was your dad particularly awful? I think once kids get older a lot might feel this way.
Oh, and please don't torture us with suspense... at least, assure us that the grim happenings are no worse than moving to DC from Hawaii which is unspeakable enough if you ask me?
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This is an interesting perspective. Was your dad particularly awful? I think once kids get older a lot might feel this way.
Oh, and please don't torture us with suspense... at least, assure us that the grim happenings are no worse than moving to DC from Hawaii which is unspeakable enough if you ask me?
Somewhat worse. It looks likes the wife and kids are going to move to Cleveland and I'm gonna rent a small apartment in a friends house and keep working here until the job thing resolves itself. This way we can save some money for a move. Don't know exactly when yet or for how long, but probably right after Christmas at the latest.
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Ouch. That's always a rough situation; we've done it twice, both with my dad going away for a while and getting set up elsewhere before we followed him. If it's any comfort, hopefully the time will pass quickly.
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Thanks.
This is ass backwards, though, no time frame on how long before I land a job out there.
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In short (too late), I think that the reason there aren't more stay at home dads is because feminism has failed men, even while it has helped women. We were promised equality; we got higher expectations across the board. We were promised choice; we got guilt no matter what we chose. We were promised freedom; we got the freedom to pursue happiness but nobody seems to be able to find it.
My thoughts. Yours?
On that note:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/26/business/26leonhardt.html?_r=1&em&ex=1191211200&en=5a860f7f13137ca2&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin
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yeah, I always awkward when I do something like...
maybe I tell a story about how often we get letters addressed to "Dr and Mrs" instead of "Dr and Mr" and how it makes my mom so mad. And then they say "oh, wow, your mom is a doctor?"
"yeah. well... not a medical doctor. she has her PhD."
"oh. what does she do?"
"well. She does a lot of volunteer stuff... and she is a stay-at-home-mom?"
"oh."
now she is starting to Sub at my old school, though. and I feel like this might eventually turn into a more permanent position if she wants it to?
this one time a girl told me that my mom was a failure because she didn't have a career. I came so close to slapping that bitch. so. fuck*ng. close.
Inev, I am probably going to be your mom when I grow up.
Also, I hope you love this tiny can as much as I adore your response to someone saying bad things about your mom.
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thank you kindly. my mom is awesome.
also, dawg: my dad had to do that when we moved to Charlotte. He moved there for several months to start his new job while we stayed behind due to several factors which I don't recall, since I was 8 at the time. the kids and your lady will miss you, but be strong! I feel for you, though... even as a kid, I knew that it must be sad for my dad to be off by himself. (partially because the idea that someone could be happy without my presence didn't seem that reasonable at the time, but, you know.)
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I've been wondering what my life was missing...