The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: pmcd9 on January 19, 2009, 06:13:27 pm
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Umm, I don't really have anything to say about it, but I'm hoping you all will.
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I don't know, it's kind of too much, you know. On the one hand, I get it and all the hoopla and everything, but on the other I don't. Like if we need to make this big a deal about a charismatic light-skinned moderate-left black man raised by (mostly) white people we might maybe still have a problem that we're trying to compensate for? Maybe?
Not that I won't be watching it on tv or anything, but, you know.
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I am curious to hear from Inev how his trip is going. From what I've read of the concerts and stuff on the DC area blogs, if you're able to cope with the logistical issues (getting into the city, getting there early enough to get a seat, staying warm, having food and drink and bathroom available since you got there so damn early and have to hang around for a couple hours), it's actually been a good time.
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Pictures will be demanded.
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I am curious to hear from Inev how his trip is going. From what I've read of the concerts and stuff on the DC area blogs, if you're able to cope with the logistical issues (getting into the city, getting there early enough to get a seat, staying warm, having food and drink and bathroom available since you got there so damn early and have to hang around for a couple hours), it's actually been a good time.
The SO went into the city for dinner and drinks last night. She said the inbound metro was deserted but once she hit Foggy Bottom it was crammed from then on. Apparently the residents were super easy to spot, as they weren't checking the map after every single stop.
Oh, and when she flew into Nat'l they could see the crowds at the concert from the plane. I think Tom Hanks was speaking when they flew over.
Inaugurations strike me as a lot like the fireworks. If you live here you feel obligated to go once, even though it's not really that fun.
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You have no idea how historic!
WASHINGTON, Associated Press – To Conrad Harrell of port-a-potty toilet supplier Don's Johns, Tuesday's inauguration of Barack Obama will be historic, but not in the way you might think.
"This is the largest temporary restroom event in the history of the United States," he said.
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I think that a lot of this is actually "HOLY SHIT, WE GOT RID OF BUSH, THAT'S AWESOME AS FUCK!" and people are just pretending that they're actually excited about racial progress and stuff because it's much more polite and progressive-sounding to be excited about racial progress. This is just my theory but you have to admit that it makes some sense.
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I know I'm excited as fuck that Bush is leaving office.
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I, too, will be excited to see the inauguration of the first Hawaiian president.
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My only regret is waking up at 0100 instead of 0300 to prepare for 0400 departure. It's too little time to go back to sleep and get another REM cycle.
There are a LOT of portapotties, but the Smithsonian is also still open and there are even a few museums that only locals would know about.
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I really want to throw out some snarky line about ancient cultures that would select a king in the height of summer and then sacrifice them on the winter solstice to make the crops grow again with emphasis on the fleeting praise and adoration heaped on the person that will tomorrow be held responsible for things completely beyond their control but, well, you guys are just too cute when you're enthusiastic. Just have a mess of fun 'merica. Maybe you got yourselves a goddun this time.
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regardless in 8 hours we're rid of the worst yet
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regardless in 8 hours we're rid of the worst yet
That's why I'm going - not so much for the new but to say i was there for the riddance of the old
also because my wife and brother in law are insane
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There are a LOT of portapotties, but the Smithsonian is also still open and there are even a few museums that only locals would know about.
There are already photos of beautiful long stretches of portajohns on Flickr. Very stirring.
Also, I read that someone was selling a guide Where to Pee in DC on Ebay, so Bobby may have competition even for the obscure museums.
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I was in a literary theory seminar while this was going on.
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I watched it live streaming on BBC between customers. I got most of the speech, though. Pretty good.
Also, Aretha sucked. Had to say it.
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Hey, did you catch the shout-out to aetheists? You gotta not believe!
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Hey, did you catch the shout-out to aetheists? You gotta not believe!
It's time for the atheists to stand up for what they don't believe in.
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We had an office viewing party in a conference room, streaming CNN's feed through a projector. The video was a bit choppy, but the audio worked just fine.
The crowds were apparently completely crazy. DC blogs had tales of people standing in lines for an hour, only to have them go basically nowhere. The outer metro station parking lots were full by like 6:30. Someone was struck by a train at Gallery Place (one of the main transfer stations in the middle of the city), and the station was shut down for a while this morning. There was also a water main break near the Archives metro station, also right in the middle of everything.
But seeing the crowds on TV, it sure looked like everyone was having a good time.
How about Rev. Warren busting out the Lord's Prayer? Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, you just chill out for a minute. Otherwise, he was surprisingly decent.
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I heard the metro was discouraging transfers at all. Just pick a color and get off as close as possible.
Apparently actual commuting traffic was super light, since so many people had today off. The meters are on in Arlington but nobody is parked at any of them.
We walked to Carpool and watched on their 25 tvs. One bartender was especially jubilant. When Bush got on the chopper one woman said, "bye. Don't come back."
After that we went to Target. I've never seen it so empty. If you need anything* now is the time to go.
I did enjoy reading the Post's tourist guide. It boiled down to: stand right, walk left. Don't say you're going to "The Smithsonian" because there's like 14 separate museums, some as far away as Leesburg. Stand right, walk left. Not everything on the Mall is the Smithsonian. Stand right, walk left. Yes, you need your farecard to exit. Stand right, walk left. Don't get off the escalator and stop moving. And on yeah, stand right, walk left.
What I don't get is who needs to be told to stand right, walk left? Isn't that the rule on every escalator on the planet? Have these people never been to a shopping mall? Yet so many people fuck it up.
*As if it's possible to not need anything from Target. Even immediately after going you think of something else.
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How about Rev. Warren busting out the Lord's Prayer? Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, you just chill out for a minute.
You know, having heard My People acknowledged for like the first time in American history, I was happy to let him have his own quaint custom.
I WANT TO NOT BELIEVE.
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also because my wife and brother in law are insane
Played keyboard for Oingo Boingo, what?! When did you marry up?
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We had an office viewing party in a conference room, streaming CNN's feed through a projector. The video was a bit choppy, but the audio worked just fine.
The crowds were apparently completely crazy. DC blogs had tales of people standing in lines for an hour, only to have them go basically nowhere. The outer metro station parking lots were full by like 6:30. Someone was struck by a train at Gallery Place (one of the main transfer stations in the middle of the city), and the station was shut down for a while this morning. There was also a water main break near the Archives metro station, also right in the middle of everything.
But seeing the crowds on TV, it sure looked like everyone was having a good time.
How about Rev. Warren busting out the Lord's Prayer? Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, you just chill out for a minute. Otherwise, he was surprisingly decent.
It took us 40 minutes in but we left at 4am. It crowded up quite a bit afterward. We got off at L'Enfant, which was the right place to go.
The crowds had a blast, especially by the MSNBC booth, except for the crazy Jamaican guy who had a life obsession to show the Ghana Flag on TV while saying "Bullybullybully! Boomboomboom!" in a gravelly patois.
Incredible amounts of booing when Bush came on board. I'm not sure what to think of that.
Getting back was difficult, we just walked to Georgetown and over the Key Bridge.
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What I don't get is who needs to be told to stand right, walk left? Isn't that the rule on every escalator on the planet? Have these people never been to a shopping mall? Yet so many people fuck it up.
My people have a proud history of standing left and walking right. I'm going to watch this when I get home from uni because I forgot my headphones and not everyone in the library wants to hear it. Good to hear y'all had a good time. There was an Atheist shout out? This is interesting. And kind of hard to believe to be honest.
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My people have a proud history of standing left and walking right. I'm going to watch this when I get home from uni because I forgot my headphones and not everyone in the library wants to hear it. Good to hear y'all had a good time. There was an Atheist shout out? This is interesting. And kind of hard to believe to be honest.
DC Tourists have a proud history of standing left and standing right, because they are obese cows with a preternatural sense of entitlement. To this end, when one such fat cow had a heart attack at the top of a station escalator (which are stopped and turned into stairs for events like these), it underscores the fact: walk more and this wouldnt have been an issue.
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Incredible amounts of booing when Bush came on board. I'm not sure what to think of that.
Seriously guys. Keep it classy.
When was the atheist shoutout? I was watching at work but kept getting interrupted by clients. I mean, I know I have to do my job, but really. It's the inauguration. Peaceful transition of power and all that.
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Atheists: We believe in you. - I think I saw a photo of some people holding such a sign at the Seattle Marathon.
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There was an Atheist shout out? This is interesting. And kind of hard to believe to be honest.
From Obama's address: "For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers."
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Wow. Heartwarming. Change you don't have to believe in. Thanks Obama!
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It's depressing that this really is kind of a big deal (or at least it seems to me). He had no need to say it, didn't make it a big enough deal for it to be part of a particular message pushing strategy and it will probably only hurt him with certain groups.
Awww damnit now I'm remember that there are people who will hate him because he thinks it should be acknowledged that people with different beliefs are part of your society. I'm going to go to a barbecue and be godless.
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It's depressing that this really is kind of a big deal (or at least it seems to me). He had no need to say it, didn't make it a big enough deal for it to be part of a particular message pushing strategy and it will probably only hurt him with certain groups.
Awww damnit now I'm remember that there are people who will hate him because he thinks it should be acknowledged that people with different beliefs are part of your society. I'm going to go to a barbecue and be godless.
From Penn Jillette's twitter: How pathetic is it that there's mentions of god all over and even a minister and prayers, and we Atheists rolling over for a mention?
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+1 Penn Jillette. I, for one, am fine that the prayers etc. happened and that I only got a mention because you know why? Obama's a Christian, and if he wants a prayer when he's being inaugurated to the highest office in the land, it's his right. I'd prefer, of course, that he not inject religion into politics, but so long as he respects my rights NOT to have a prayer when I do anything worthy of public attention, and to do things according to my own belief system and not his own, I'll respect his right to worship in his way. No law respecting the establishment of religion, indeed.
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It's depressing that this really is kind of a big deal
It really is a big deal. Atheists are the last group that it's still OK to hate in the US. We could never elect an atheist president. It's not just about different beliefs, it's about this particular belief (or lack thereof).
I thought it was pretty brave of him to have U2 play at the concert on Sunday when it was pretty much inevitable that Bono would do something like drop in that reference to Palestine, but this was even braver.
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I believe Obama is the first president to actually say that atheists even count as Americans, and there's only two more presidents separating us from George H.W. Bush, who explicitly said otherwise. (http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm) It really is depressing that we're still at a point where this is a big deal, but we are, and it certainly is.
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I had no idea we had so many bona fide atheists on the board. I mean, I just sort of assume that everyone is non-practicing Whatever, or else agnostic, until that assumption is corrected.
Maybe I'm opening a can of worms here, but it seems like a belief that there is no God is as much a belief as any other religion -- just with fewer commandments to follow.
There was going to be a lot more here, but my kids interfered.
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You know, I don't really make that big a distinction between atheist and agnostic. Saying you don't believe there is a God, or that you don't believe you can prove whether or not there is a God... that seems to me more like a personality difference than anything else.
Anyway, what Obama said was "non-believers" and that covers both, so we're IN either way. Hooray!
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Surely you can be an agnostic theist? I'm sure there are piles and piles of people who believe in a deity who also take the position that they can't be sure it really exists. Not least because it's pretty well built in to no small chunk of religion.
Besides which, I'm not atheist because I believe there's no god; I'm atheist because I don't believe there is a god, and because I think and act as though there isn't.
(I'm also theist, because I'm addicted to tea-drinking.)
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I'm not atheist because I believe there's no god; I'm atheist because I don't believe there is a god
See, to me - and I recognize that reasonable people can differ on this - life is too short for an argument that compares two sentences like that, or entertains the concept 'agnostic theist'. (Fortunately for me, a person can sleep through semantics classes - or be stunned to the point of idiocy - and still get a degree in linguistics.)
But as for your other point - there is a tea shop in DC called Teaism, and that's an -ism I can get behind, too.
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I think the difference between atheist and agnostic is huge. As I understand it an atheist is certain there is no god or afterlife and an agnostic doesn't know.
Anyone that claims to know what's beyond the veil, whether they be Christian or atheist is a fool in my opinion. Hell, we only know a drop in the ocean about the things we can see and we know even less about the things we can't.
I guess I'd have to add that Christians are bigger fools because much of what they believe is demonstrably false, but that's another subject entirely.
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I think we spend waaaaay too much time worrying about metaphysics when we should be thinking about ethics.
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Frank Dempsey for President.
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I guess the trouble is that different people mean different things by 'atheist'. My beliefs don't make me a fool by your standards, but if I described myself as an atheist without explaining what I meant you might think me one (although I like to think you'd delve a little deeper before making that judgement.)
Why do so many people insist on absolute certainty from those who describe themselves as 'atheist'? Isn't the word far more useful if it encompasses people, like me, who acknowledge that you can't be certain there is no god but don't think that that really matters, practically? I mean, the sense in which you can't prove the non-existence of god is only the same sense you can't prove the non-existence of elves, but you wouldn't call someone a fool if they told you they don't believe in elves. What shorthand should I use to describe myself in a discussion of religious belief? 'Agnostic' won't cut it: I could be uncertain and still be a Christian. Hell, I could be uncertain and still campaign against contraception or abortion or gay marriage based on my Christian beliefs. 'Agnostic' doesn't cover any of the things that are of practical value about my atheism.
None of these words are perfect, just like 'conservative' or 'feminist' aren't, and it seems silly to me that we should discuss belief positions based on how we personally would define a word rather than on how people think and what they believe. As such, I think it's important that people don't go around with the mindset that anyone who calls themself an atheist is a 'fool' or is just as much subscribing to what is essentially just another religion - that seems silly to me in the same way that going around thinking that everyone who calls themselves 'feminist' is a misandrist does.
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I think we spend waaay too much time worrying about metaphysics when we should be eating chocolate.
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The beautiful thing about eating chocolate is that you can combine it with a wealth of other activities!
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Atheists proselytize - otherwise, the difference is semantic.
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What the fuck difference here wouldn't be semantic?
Seriously, though, that's a ridiculous comment. I've never proselytized (for atheism, anyway) but I'm definitely atheist.
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Sometimes Christians hate people because they're non-Christian. Some Christians -- and I use Christians as an example here because I want to pick on a group I belong to -- use their beliefs as an excuse to treat other people like crap. Some Christians assume that everyone who believes in something else is deluded, amoral, or just plain hell-bound. None of these traits are inherent to Christianity -- they are traits of the individuals who express them, not the whole group.
Any belief, in the hands of the wrong person, can be turned against others. Even the belief that there is no God -- or the absence of belief that there is one -- has acquired a culture of its own. And that culture has developed into an "us vs them" dichotomy that defines itself by what it isn't. And in the wrong hands -- and I am not saying anyone here is "the wrong hands" -- atheism is sometimes used to belittle religion in general and (in this country) Christianity in particular.
Some atheists shake their heads in bemusement at Christians' "misguided" beliefs, our "superstitions." Some atheists think we must be either incredibly gullible or incredibly desperate for a "higher purpose" in our otherwise meaningless lives. Some atheists view participation in any religion as a sign of low intelligence or emotional frailty. And by declaring themselves decidedly "NOT," some atheists think they are above gullibility, desperation, foolishness, and frailty. One of my best friends (who describes herself as "agnostic on a good day") still sometimes displays an air of self-righteousness (if you'll pardon the phrase) with regard to her non-belief. My connection to my religion is a thing she Doesn't Get, therefore, at times, it is a thing she Doesn't Value.
Furthermore, Christians are often labeled as "right-wing," "intolerant," "close-minded," "gay-bashing," etc. Yet how many times have I heard my atheist friends disparage someone as a "fundamentalist wacko" because that person attends church on a weekly basis? Don't you think I get tired of hearing complaints about how "the Christians" are ruining this country? How many times have I tried not to argue with someone who makes the off-hand comment that Prop 8 failed because of "those gay-hating Christians?"
Oh, we don't mean you, they say. You're not a gay-hating Christian, you're one of the good ones. You're educated.
Right. Reminds me of when my grandmother talks about her African-American neighbors. "They're [redacted], but they're good [redacted]. Very clean."
I don't walk around with a WWJD bracelet on my wrist or a Gideon Bible in my pocketbook, ready to thump at a moment's notice. I support gay marriage and would support a constitutional amendment to guarantee it. I support comprehensive sex education in public schools, and I even support the right of schools to teach evolution in science classes. Yet often, people assume I'm part of the "Christian right" simply because I happen to believe in God, the Father almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, and in Jesus Christ, his Son, our Lord.
So can someone explain to me why it's become the norm among non-Christians to associate Christianity with ignorance and intolerance? Because I don't remember this Jesus guy suggesting that we all try not to read too many books and avoid people who are different from us. Kind of the opposite, actually.
I wish the vocal minority of Christians who also do happen to be intolerant idiots would just sit the hell down and shut the hell up so that those of us with both a brain and a conscience -- and here I include Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Wiccans, Jedi, and everyone else -- can work together on figuring out what kind of place we want this country to be.
But not the Scientologists. Those guys are right out.
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So can someone explain to me why it's become the norm among non-Christians to associate Christianity with ignorance and intolerance?
Um. Because the asshole wing of Christianity has done such a good job of becoming influential in powerful places, and of prominently advocating imposing its views on others?
I also often can't figure out why people are such idiots about certain things that are obvious if you know the least bit of background, but... well, if the only pit bulls that get into the news are the ones that bite, it's no wonder people think all pit bulls bite. If people don't have experience of the other kind or information about them, you can't really blame them for believing the bad stuff that they hear again and again and again.
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Um. Because the asshole wing of Christianity has done such a good job of becoming influential in powerful places, and of prominently advocating imposing its views on others?
I also often can't figure out why people are such idiots about certain things that are obvious if you know the least bit of background, but... well, if the only pit bulls that get into the news are the ones that bite, it's no wonder people think all pit bulls bite. If people don't have experience of the other kind or information about them, you can't really blame them for believing the bad stuff that they hear again and again and again.
So, atheists and agnostics are so insular that their only exposure to Christianity comes in the form of the hate-mongering blowhards on TV?
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As I find myself drifting away from my right wing fundamentalist roots into waters of a more decidedly godless liberal clime, I've definitely come to regard any sort of high-handed snootiness from any side. It's kind of startling to be told by an online quiz that you're an atheist liberal if you hadn't really regarded yourself that way.
I can buy that whole insular thing to a certain extent, especially in today's society. You can basically tailor your information sources so that they reflect the "Daily Me." As long as you hang out with people who share your views, it's pretty easy to come off as an asshole people you come in contact with who do not share your worldview.
Um, what Jadles said for the most part.
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So, atheists and agnostics are so insular that their only exposure to Christianity comes in the form of the hate-mongering blowhards on TV?
Like it or not, those hate-mongering blowhards on TV (and in Congress, the military and corporate boardrooms) are the face of Christianity today. As we often ask about the Islamic world -- why don't the moderates stand up to the radicals?
Personally, I don't care if you believe in God the father, maker of heaven and earth, Zoroaster or the fuck*ng Thetans. I care about how you treat your fellow man. I have known fundamentalist Christians whose beliefs I consider pretty primitive for whom I have the greatest respect. I have likewise known people with very sophisticated personal philosophies that aren't worth pissing on.
Religions (or lacks thereof) are like assholes. Everybody's got one. As far as I've been able to tell a person's professed theism/atheism, gnosticism/agnosticism, sect, scepticism, spiritual path, ethos or whatever bears little or no relation to their goodness.
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Unfortunately, we live in a world where if you repeat something loudly and often enough, it counts as the truth. Like it or not, if you don't play that game, the ones who play it well get to represent who you are.
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I was originally writing this post generally but it ended up getting kind of long and being mainly directed at JL, I'm not trying to get all personal or anything though, you're just the only person fighting the other side of this argument today (where is AD lately anyway?).
With that disclaimer, JL:
I think I said this in the last religiony thread we had but the people I'd term evangelical atheists (I'm thinking particularly here of Richard Dawkins and anyone who has a blog with 'godless' 'skeptic' or 'fundie' in the title) are douchebags who are just as bad as any other group that judges/dismisses people based on a single data point. I think they make the rest of us (not that there is a 'rest of us' since it's ridiculous to group people together due to a lack of belief) look like militant pseudo-cultish assholes and I avoid talking about religion with them just as much as I avoid speaking about it with my 94 year old 7th day adventist great uncle (who was terribly disappointed that the world didn't end in 2004 when he thought it would).
If the type of atheists you are talking about JL have a single 'belief' it's not that THERE IS NOT A GOD it's that PEOPLE WHO THINK THERE IS A GOD ARE JERKS/MORONS/CRIMINALS. This is demonstrably incorrect but they take it, I imagine, on faith.
I really, really have to call bullshit on the 'belief in no God is a belief' thing though, even though Ruta and Wombles have already commented on it. I do not share your belief in a Higher Power an Afterlife or a Creator because I have seen no evidence of it that can't be explained in a way that fits with the physical, testable world that we all experience (and please no one say that if I've made up my mind I'll only see evidence that supports my point of view, apart from anything else that argument cuts both ways so hard I can use it to butter my Jesus toast).
My point is that when someone has a 'belief' that strong if has a dramatic effect on how they live their life. Not having this belief does not affect my life in any way (except I guess, the side I take in these arguments). There are plenty of things I do not do that religious people do but there's nothing I do in my life based purely on the 'belief' that no God exists. I think of myself as having the basic life package and religous people have taken the 'God Lovin' upgrade.
I choose to live my life on the assumption that I only get one go around there's nothing afterwards and my own internal reasoning and experience is the best gauge I have for what is moral and what isn't. This is the same line of reasoning that tells me not to buy a speedboat in the belief that I'm winning the lottery this thursday. It's possible I'll win the lottery but the odds are so far against it that this would not be a sensible way to live my life.
So, sorry I took so long to try and get my point across but no I do not believe in the lack of God I am just yet to see any reason to have believe in existence of one. It is not something I take on faith, it is something I challenge at every opportunity, I'm just yet to have my mind changed. When it is I'll let you know.
Swerving to the other thing: I am sorry that people tend to throw all religous people in the 'crazy fundie' bucket these days, I think this might be more of an American thing, people I know tend to be fairly easy going about religion but Australia doesn't really have such a strong evangelical movement to stir up a counter movement, we're all pretty much lapsed catholics or lapsed anglicans (with a few lapsed greek orthodox, muslims and buddhists for good measure). Though, as Ruta said, the jerks are the ones that get all the publicity. The same way people like Dawkins (I imagine) fuel your impression that all atheists treat lack of God as a 'Belief'.
Edit: I think I like the way AW said it better but I'm leaving this hear now because dammnit I took half my lunchbreak writing it.
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I had no idea we had so many bona fide atheists on the board.
Even though I was raised in a very religious household I have the same reaction when I find out someone I associate with is a believer--especially when I'm dating that person. And I'm always shocked when someone is shocked that I'm not, even though I'm clearly in the minority.
On that note, does anyone here believe that the world is going to end in 2012? One of my after work beer buddies thinks it's a real possibility. I was a bit floored. He's pretty well grounded, and I guess because we have very similar academic interests I always assumed he wouldn't consider something like that. But again, maybe I'm blindly in the minority.
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As soon as I see Christians fighting to have their beliefs separated from the vast majority of church leaders who actively participated in denying my rights this past November, I'll stop putting them in the same category.
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Atheists are the last group that it's still OK to hate in the US.
That and fat people. I say this as a pudgy agnostic.
I'm not an atheist, I'm entirely open to the idea of a higher power or another life or a hidden reality. Shit, I long for any of these things. Like Fox Mulder, a dude wants to believe. Like Fox News, a dude sees the man behind the curtain peddling lies for dollars. I also haven't seen a whit of evidence toward any of these things.
Anecdotes of wishful thinking, the hallucinations of the temporarily or permanently ill, confidence schemes. The vastest majority, confidence schemes. Oh Christ, if it was mostly madness or hope, I could live with it so much easier. Not to say that aren't true believers but holy shit, swing a dead cat in a room with any one true believer and you'll hit fifteen smiling bastards trying to make a buck off of that hope... or trying to fuck it... or trying to get it to kill in their name.
Show me a divinity that no one could ever manage to make a power play in the name of and I'll at least tip my hat to it.
Also, I don't wear hats. Make you prematurely bald, you know.
I dunno. If there's another reality, it seems to me that it would be by definition inexpressable in this one. The whole gig "religion" just seems so fuck*ng presumptuous to me. Even if you yourself touched the face of otherworldly grace for true and real and certain, how could you ever transmit that in this world's meanings to anyone else? I want to believe but I can't whittle down my burden of proof, just to get to the point where I can believe in something.
There are people out there trying to turn a buck on atheism, too, I guess that's why I've my doubts on it as well.
There was an old Janeane Garofolo bit on "Dr. Katz" and... I don't remember it well... but it was about the idea of staying in your hometown and marrying the person who had the locker next to you in the seventh grade. Throwing a blanket over your head, you know, and declaring all your options closed forever. Religion has always felt like that to me. Its almost worse if there's Something Else. If there's Nothing, the way religion corrupts us and rules us and kills us inside, it's a sublime gag, maybe the best joke ever written. Cruel poetry.
But if there IS Something and we're binding ourselves inside and killing each other in the pursuit of It, holy Christ, that's the saddest thing.
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I totally would love to believe in God, but I cannot. At all. To a point that... I feel like I am being a jerk.
I can't make statements about God without giggling or smirking.
I have a lot of trouble with this, because I find the culture of religion really interesting and powerful... but when I actually think "these people literally believe that there is a God all around us who sent his son to us etc" I just... can hardly even take it seriously. And I know that that makes me a douche.
Like, I want to be respectful and tolerant. But I also think that it doesn't sound so different from any old story. I can go to a religious service and feel moved by it, by the emotions and the messages of a greater good and the need for us to help each other... but when I remember that it's all about God's Son I believe in it a little less.
This kind of links back around to how I feel about our new President. I get that same feeling from him, except... I really do believe in America. It's real. It is all around me and I was holding back tears for large portions of that day.
Um, should I post my DC stories here?
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Surely DC stories have more relevance to the title than a digression to the merits of/oppression of atheism.
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Even though I was raised in a very religious household I have the same reaction when I find out someone I associate with is a believer--especially when I'm dating that person. And I'm always shocked when someone is shocked that I'm not, even though I'm clearly in the minority.
On that note, does anyone here believe that the world is going to end in 2012? One of my after work beer buddies thinks it's a real possibility. I was a bit floored. He's pretty well grounded, and I guess because we have very similar academic interests I always assumed he wouldn't consider something like that. But again, maybe I'm blindly in the minority.
I'm kind of like this, but then for the last couple of years I've been working with scientists where atheism tends to be the norm. I was actually quite surprised when I found out that my lab manager is very active in her church. She does have near divine powers of organisation and saintly patience of academic and beauracratic BS though.
People actually believe the 2012 thing? I've been repeating it lately because that's when I finish my degree (also the last year of Obama's first term I think?) so it has taken on new and worrying significance.
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Um, should I post my DC stories here?
Yes definitely, for once an off topic thread needs to be corrected.
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As to the 2012 thing:
I do not believe that there's anything mystical or magic about a world-scope disaster happening in 2012.
I do, however, fear that there is a critical mass of fucknuts out there in the world who would do a great deal to self-fulfill that prophecy.
And not do a great deal, for that matter. Stop striving for peace, here or there, just let it happen.
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Furthermore, Christians are often labeled as "right-wing," "intolerant," "close-minded," "gay-bashing," etc. Yet how many times have I heard my atheist friends disparage someone as a "fundamentalist wacko" because that person attends church on a weekly basis? Don't you think I get tired of hearing complaints about how "the Christians" are ruining this country? How many times have I tried not to argue with someone who makes the off-hand comment that Prop 8 failed because of "those gay-hating Christians?"
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So can someone explain to me why it's become the norm among non-Christians to associate Christianity with ignorance and intolerance?
Have you considered that these two impressions might come from the same place?
Religions (or lacks thereof) are like assholes. Everybody's got one.
Like pies!
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Sadly, I do not have a pie at the moment.
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Really, where do you live where everyone has a pie?
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Really, where do you live where everyone has a pie?
The Piedmont?
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Sadly, I do not have a pie at the moment.
But you must confess, you do have a lack thereof.
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Why did this immediately make me think of you guys.
Head o State. (http://www.headostate.com/)
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Why did this immediately make me think of you guys.
Head o State. (http://www.headostate.com/)
How did you come across, er, find that?
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I love how flexible the word 'official' can be.
While we're being uncouth... (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=neCIg0BiXbE)
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No no no.
"Head O State" needs to be a rubber head with a working blowjob mouth...
A dildo, you could call "The Chief" or "The Executive".
Dammit, sex industry. I realize you're mostly about being sexual but when you're going to go for the joke on top, have the joke MAKE SENSE.
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drove thirteen hours or so to Alexandria, and slept at my friend's house. Her parents are very nice and funny. The next day we went into DC for the huge free concert on the National Mall. A lot of artists I don't particularly like doing their popular songs, the crowd didn't have that much energy for some reason. I really liked U2's performance, even though I do not really like U2. That could have been really moving. President Obama gave a pretty mediocre speech. Then Beyonce sang, and I love her. Pete Seeger was sweet, but I wished they would have shown the verses to "This Land is Your Land" on the big screens so that more people would sing along.
That night we went to a really strange party, I did not like it at all and we ran into some other friends from school... so my roommate and I left, while the girl whose house we were staying at remained at the party. We ended up sleeping at this new friend's house, because my roommate has an on-again-off-again type sex thing with her. She is pretty great, which is nice because usually he dates girls I don't like.
The next day we just hung out at her house, helped her set up for her party which was pretty tame. At the end her boss came with her husband. They have kids our age and were fun and smoking pot and drinking. Which was funny.
The next day was the inauguration. I woke up feeling really horrible, I think I was getting a cold compounded by being in the cold all day and not sleeping enough. We got off the metro in Adams Morgan to get tea and bagels. Mid-bagel I looked up when the ceremony started, and realized that we were going to miss it. We rode the metro downtown and got off and wandered the streets... it was really creepy, because at that point no one could get into the parade route/national mall/anything, so it basically looked like a zombie movie. people aimlessly wandering abandoned streets. I was on the verge of crying (I am not sure why.... a combination of happiness about the day and frustration) when we found a camera store that had a little TV. We watched the inauguration and speech on this tiny, staticy TV with a ton of other people packed into the store... everyone was crying and hugging each other and cheering. It was beautiful.
Then we spent the rest of the day wandering around trying to find a metro stop that wasn't overwhelmed with people. Eventually we ended up way down in southeastern DC, right by the Anacostia Bridge. We got on the metro and left.
The whole experience was really emotional and just... incredible. The first president I've voted for, and I have so much faith in him. What I find really moving is that I think that President Obama really believes in us. In a way that is more reasoned and mature than the way President Bush does.
I just kept saying to people, "He Believes in Us."
During the speech I kept thinking about this story my mom told me once about how when she was in High School, kids wouldn't stand up and say the pledge of allegiance (due to Vietnam War stuff). And every day, she would stand up and say it. Lids would make fun of her, and she wouldn't say anything. But she thought it was really important to say the pledge, because unlike those kids, she was not a citizen. She knew it was a privilege for her to be in this country.
I worry sometimes that that story isn't really what happened, that maybe I'm remembering it wrong... but I don't care. I think about this story a lot.
This is what I feel like President Obama has, beyond his intelligence and leadership skills and whatever, that really gets me.
I feel like he has a love for America that is unconditional, but at the same time he understands that America is not always perfect. He has a belief in the Idea of America, and he knows that Americans can do incredible things when they are motivated by this ideal.
I also think similar things about humanity in general. But I think there is something particular about America where we, as a whole, can take a crazy idea and actually make it happen. Or, if it is impossible, work towards it every day.
Head of State: My friend's ex boyfriend, in his creepiest moment, asked her if she would call him "Mr. President" or "Barack" during sex.
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I feel it's a shame you clarified the context of that last remark.
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How did you come across, er, find that?
Someone's Twitter. Totally not my responsibility, really.
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I think Cracked had a picture of the head of state the other day. But there's was Democrat Blue.
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During the speech I kept thinking about this story my mom told me once about how when she was in High School, kids wouldn't stand up and say the pledge of allegiance (due to Vietnam War stuff). And every day, she would stand up and say it. Lids would make fun of her, and she wouldn't say anything. But she thought it was really important to say the pledge, because unlike those kids, she was not a citizen. She knew it was a privilege for her to be in this country.
I do not recite the pledge, as I find fealty oaths morally dangerous.
I do, however, stand quietly and face the same direction with my hands down out of respect for those around me. "You all are taking a moment, and while I won't join you, I will also not do anything that will ruin your moment for you."
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oh, i left out the best part that has ever happened:
the night of the inauguration, my new roommate sent me the following text message:
hey man, just got back from [the grocery store] and forgot to get milk and bread. LOL. if you pass a store on the way home can you get some
...if I pass a store on the 13 hour drive home. WHAT
...he remembered to buy three kinds of beer, but didn't get milk or bread. WHAT
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I do not recite the pledge, as I find fealty oaths morally dangerous.
"...I will to [my Lord] be true and faithful, and love all which he loves and shun all which he shuns, according to the laws of God and the order of the world. Nor will I ever with will or action, through word or deed, do anything which is unpleasing to him, on condition that he will hold to me as I shall deserve it, and that he will perform everything as it was in our agreement when I submitted myself to him and chose his will."
-source (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/feud-oath1.html)
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So, atheists and agnostics are so insular that their only exposure to Christianity comes in the form of the hate-mongering blowhards on TV?
Christians stormed the Library of Alexandria, with Constantine's blessing, and burned nearly all of the books and scrolls there.
Centuries of Popes would punish heresy or other free-thinking thought with death, only to be furthered under the Inquisition.
Protestants, fighting to break free of the Catholic Pope, were every bit as restrictive toward their communities. Jean Chauvin (John Calvin) and Zwingli imposed martial law on their respective cantons in what is now Switzerland.
The hate-mongering blowhards have been around a lot longer than TV.
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I just want to say to Doc: no, really -- the atheists and agnostics I'm talking about who view religious affiliation as a sign of weak will or low intelligence -- these are friends of mine. Although at this point I'm thinking maybe I need different friends?
I'd really like to contribute further to this discussion -- and also to comment on inev's adventures -- but my son just dumped a box of Ritz on the kitchen floor and walked over the crackers while wearing galoshes, so I have other things to attend to.
Besides, this is too much wander, even for us.
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So, atheists and agnostics are so insular that their only exposure to Christianity comes in the form of the hate-mongering blowhards on TV?
The thing is, when you think "Christians," your brain doesn't pull up "those hundreds of nice people who I never talked about religion with, but who are good people who also happen to believe in jesus"
what comes to mind is:
1. george w bush
2. people who tell my friends they are going to hell
3. people who tell me I am going to hell
4. people who ask what church I go to, and go cold when I say "i don't go to church"
5. people who carry signs saying "Homo Sex is Sin" at the Inauguration (did I mention that I only saw 3 protesters the whole 4 days I was there?)
And I guess eventually along the list there come up some pleasant people... but even with them, I often got a subtle judgement feeling.
Such as my friend who I knew for 6 years before she realized I wasn't Jewish.
I was a good person, and she knew I didn't go to church, so she assumed I must assiduously follow some other faith.
also my parents had horrible experiences with christianity as kids, and while they tried to raise me to be "spiritual" in some abstract way, most of what I got as a kid was that Christianity was where your parents made you go to church and pray and be scared of God, and you couldn't say no or they would yell at you.
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Inev, I am glad you did not wind up in the Purple Tunnel of Doom (http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/01/20/the_tunnel).
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Jay-ell, by belonging to a group you are associating yourself with that groups actions. You are also responsible for them in both resources and support. Does whatever you get out of Christianity make up for what Christians do and have done in the past?
Atheists and agnostics do not have a similar problem.
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The thing is, when you think "Christians," your brain doesn't pull up "those hundreds of nice people who I never talked about religion with, but who are good people who also happen to believe in jesus"
what comes to mind is:
1. george w bush
2. people who tell my friends they are going to hell
3. people who tell me I am going to hell
4. people who ask what church I go to, and go cold when I say "i don't go to church"
5. people who carry signs saying "Homo Sex is Sin" at the Inauguration (did I mention that I only saw 3 protesters the whole 4 days I was there?)
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Anticipating a response:
JL is probably going to say "well, those aren't REAL Christians."
People in the above list would look at more moderate Christians and say "well, these softies aren't REAL Christians."
Any group with such a nebulous definition and yet with such overarching clout is never a good thing.
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If JL says that I will eat my hat.
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to be clear: I am not saying that I think those people are "real" christians or whatever... but they are what come to mind.
they are much more memorable as CHRISTIANS in all caps.
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Although at this point I'm thinking maybe I need different friends?
This would be my thinking. Beats me why most dudes suck, sure as hell ain't my scene.
The thing is, when you think "Christians," your brain doesn't pull up "those hundreds of nice people who I never talked about religion with, but who are good people who also happen to believe in jesus"
what comes to mind is:
1. george w bush
2. people who tell my friends they are going to hell
3. people who tell me I am going to hell
4. people who ask what church I go to, and go cold when I say "i don't go to church"
5. people who carry signs saying "Homo Sex is Sin" at the Inauguration (did I mention that I only saw 3 protesters the whole 4 days I was there?)
Again this is so not at all my experience, sure occasionally I see preachers in the city but the things they are saying are generally so ridiculous that I treat them as the anomaly not the other way around. I actually had a really weird moment yesterday when I was reminded that the local catholic hospital wouldn't perform abortions. I mean, of course they wouldn't but I'm not used to thinking of religious people as being vastly different to myself.
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There's No One as Irish as Barack Obama (http://www.oneeyedparrot.org/obama.html)