The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: slink on December 07, 2003, 02:05:11 pm
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and he made a pun out of it.
OK. Where was this pun?
I really don't get the American use of the word pun. It seems to have become as distorted as irony.
I mean, I've seen several shows and movies and things where what an American gives as a pun, is not a pun.
So, what do you think a pun is?
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Hehe, the Alanis Morrisette school of selective definitions.
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I think yanks tend to define a pun thusly:
A play on words, sometimes on different senses of the same word and sometimes on the similar sense or sound of different words.
However, some people tend to use words incorrectly, or misunderstand a word someone else uses, understanding the context but not the *meaning* of a word.
And I don't think that 'merkins are the only species susceptible to that.
And yes, I know that 'American' isn't a 'species.' I was making a joke. BUT NOT A PUN.
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I think yanks tend to define a pun thusly:
A play on words, sometimes on different senses of the same word and sometimes on the similar sense or sound of different words.
Yes, but well. I've seen several instances of it not being used anythig like that in American shows. And I'm not saying that Americans are the only ones to do this, but it's similar to the common American mis-usage of the word irony, as mentioned by twelve just now about Morissette.
I just don't see how "Ocular" or "Shenanigans" is a pun on anything to do with anything!?
I could just be missing it, and thus I just wanted to enquire.
And anyway, Jough, I don't think you're the American to ask about what you think a pun is, as most of the people on this board. You're all too smart for me to think you'd get it wrong.
Anyway, no one's to crucify me, it's just another day when I need a smoke really fuck*ng bad!
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it's just another day when I need a smoke really fuck*ng bad!
Good luck with that :up: :up:
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Anyway, no one's to crucify me, it's just another day when I need a smoke really fuck*ng bad!
Hang in there. Stiff upper lip and all that, old crow...
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And I don't think that 'merkins are the only species susceptible to that.
Merkins? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_232.html)
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Merkins! Yanks! The Brave and Free! Fat people with their rat-tailed kids!
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The above use of "pun" appears to be defined by "joke involving esoteric knowledge or awareness" -- in other words, what a sane person would call an "in-joke." How you equate this with a pun is unknown to me.
That said, the Ocular Shenanigans bit is funny regardless of how much you know about Robert Johnson or his soul.
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Yes. Certainly that would fit with a show I once saw saying that "knows" was a pun for two people having sex.
I sat and thought about every position and type of foreplay I could think of for half an hour, and none of the names, or slang terms seemed to sound anything like knows.
I wish writers for shows were forced to sit down and learn about the language they fuck*ng well speak!
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Merkins! Yanks! The Brave and Free! Fat people with their rat-tailed kids!
Yeah, I know. But in a conversation concerning double entendres, it was more than I could resist.
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Yes. Certainly that would fit with a show I once saw saying that "knows" was a pun for two people having sex.
I sat and thought about every position and type of foreplay I could think of for half an hour, and none of the names, or slang terms seemed to sound anything like knows.
I wish writers for shows were forced to sit down and learn about the language they fuck*ng well speak!
"Know" as a term for having sex comes from the Bible "And x knew y and begat z". It's all over the first 5 books. This is why sometimes having sex is referred to as knowing someone "in the Biblical sense". Archaic usage, though, is not a pun per se.
Writers learning the language they speak...well, I would expect more than that. I suspect the problem is that they do write in the way that they speak...I think written language should be on a higher level. The problem is we are bombarded with writing for television or the movies - writing for the masses. Our beloved language will be continue to be dumbed down to the lowest common element, and as we march inexorably toward globalization, I suspect that we will eventually lose languages and eventually there will be only a handful of spoken languages, all of which will be regional hybrids.
There is only one potential solution, and that is that more people read and complain when written language deteriorates. I live in a state where the statewide nespaper has mispellings and grammar errors on the front page, once in a headline above the fold. It's inexcusable, but here people just shrug it off. And no one here uses English worth a damn as a result of the lax attitude toward education and standards.
That makes me sad.
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It just annoys me. Having done copy editing, and assistant editing on several publications now, I have become somewhat a stickler for correct grammar, punctuation and spelling.
I also can't help but think it a good thing to keep as a habit when trying to continue with a novel.
And it actually gets more annoying when reading a book, and finding one of the three mistypes (that is the limit for me and acceptability).
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Writers learning the language they speak...well, I would expect more than that. I suspect the problem is that they do write in the way that they speak...I think written language should be on a higher level.
I have a hard-on for the English language. I am from goddamned Texas and actually use words (more or less accidentally; I would rather speak to be understood) like "whom" and "whilst". But I don't know about any particular sanctity of the written language - look at Gravity's Rainbow or The Catcher in the Rye, just for example; they completely flaunted technical rules to express a particular and unique voice.
The problem is more with - and this is just off the top of my head:
(1) People with a lazy ear for dialect that only reproduce the most flagrant and incorrect variations in their writing, as though one or two linguistic quirks represent a particular culture or demographic.
(2) People who assume / believe that a slack attitude towards basic fuck*ng communication and comprehension is somehow selling out or an abdication of credibility. Okay, fuck you, people - I am not going to tell your fuck*ng posse if you use a complete fuck*ng sentence to ask for some Internet time.
Let me recommend the awesome Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language; you could get lost in that book for days.
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I have a hard-on for the English language.
I am similarly afflicted.
I have a collection of books, including the Chicago Print book, which is lots of fun, although I think I may have to track down a copy of the English Language Encyclopaedia, which sounds right up my street.
One of my all time favourite books, for instance, is The Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson, in which his use of language is just pure beauty.
The others are all by Murakami and Mieville at the moment, both of which do much the same.
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I don't exactly claim some form of linguistic or literary satyriasis myself, I just think language is standard for a reason. It's so as many people as possible understand.
St Z is totally correct about writing for dialectual atmosphere, though. That should come through because there is a major difference between technical writing and literature.
But the G-D'ed NEWSPAPER? That should show some class. And writing for journals or for business should show some too, and I've seen some shoddy stuff.
If ever I get to hire people, they will have to, as part of their interview, produce two pages of writing. I had to do it for this job and I think that is a very important attribute. It demonstrates several crucial abilities at once.
Of course, there are those who would challenge it in court because it somehow skews the playing field.
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And writing for journals or for business should show some too, and I've seen some shoddy stuff.
You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've dealt with for the Journal.
I mean, as part of copy editing, for instance, you would not expect to have to replace non breaking spaces for what should have been a tab routinely throughout someone's paper.
And that's not even getting into the spelling and grammar.
(edit - apostrophising: see below)
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And writing for journals or for business should show some too, and I've seen some shoddy stuff.
You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've dealt with for the Journal.
I mean, as part of copy editing, for instance, you would not expect to have to replace non breaking spaces for what should have been a tab routinely throughout someones paper.
And that's not even getting into the spelling and grammar.
Repairing people's formatting is probably the most annoying thing ever.
I just noticed that I am editing my posts in this string much more closely. Psychologically, I am a sheep.
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I just noticed that I am editing my posts in this string much more closely. Psychologically, I am a sheep.
I like how a thread whose very title contains a typo has become a totally rockin' Language SWAT Team Throwdown 2K3 pay-per-view event. I like that almost as much as the word subjunctive.
Has anyone left here not been a copy editor at some point in time?
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I like how a thread whose very title contains a typo has become a totally rockin' Language SWAT Team Throwdown 2K3 pay-per-view event.
Has anyone left here not been a copy editor at some point in time?
Title of the year!
And I think everyone else, not having a vested interest, just ran away after the third post on this topic.
I almost don't blame them!
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I've copy-edited, albeit not in any particularly prestigious publications. The most recent incident was as a side product of doing layout on a minor publication. That said, this thread rocks my socks.
I have great sympathy for those who attempt to write regional accents, although I would perhaps have more sympathy if they were more competent at it. The "throw a whole bunch of apostrophes in and call it a day" style is particularly vexing, since it makes things unreadable without actually making them in any way authentic.
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I've copy-edited, albeit not in any particularly prestigious publications.
Don't sell yourself short. I would hardly call copy editing my fuck*ng high school newspaper ten years ago the apex of prestige and credibility. One day, though, I shall have to share with you all some of the wonderfully bad documents library patrons leave saved on the public machines. The best of them are just wrong on every level, as though the English language threw a carpet-chewing fit.
I have great sympathy for those who attempt to write regional accents, although I would perhaps have more sympathy if they were more competent at it. The "throw a whole bunch of apostrophes in and call it a day" style is particularly vexing, since it makes things unreadable without actually making them in any way authentic.
When people writing "Southern accents" have someone use y'all for the second-person singular... arrgh. Marvel Comics' Rogue is always a delightful train wreck of the Pidgin Express. Has anyone ever looked at one of those "accents for writers" books? I've always had a tickle of curiosity but then, you know, eh, lazy.
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The "throw a whole bunch of apostrophes in and call it a day" style is particularly vexing, since it makes things unreadable without actually making them in any way authentic.
Problem is it works well for the writer, who can see how it's supposed to sound. So it matches up fine for them.
But when you don't know what accent they're after it falls flat on it's ass.
The other thing, which I just thought about it, is that it's a pedantic way of writing something that defies pedantism. Every apostrophe is like an apology to broadcast English, when a regional accent should just fly in the face of it.
You cannot speak Cornish and feel ashamed of it when faced with English.
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Now my spelling is so bad it would make a teacher weep but I can get picky. I detest the fact that so many news anchors and papers have misused the words "hacker" and "cracker" that they are now completely worthless for their original meanings. I know that meaning changes with usage but Dan Rather and the Chicago Tribune shouldn't be spear-heading the effort.
All of you should check this out: http://www.theslot.com
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One day, though, I shall have to share with you all some of the wonderfully bad documents library patrons leave saved on the public machines. The best of them are just wrong on every level, as though the English language threw a carpet-chewing fit.
I can buy it, and I'd be curious to see some of the train wrecks up close and personal. God only knows that my few experiences with publically-saved documents have tended to resemble an explosion at the Horrible Writing Factory.
When people writing "Southern accents" have someone use y'all for the second-person singular... arrgh. Marvel Comics' Rogue is always a delightful train wreck of the Pidgin Express.
Oh, God, incorrect use of "y'all"... gah. Just gah. (Although I will admit that I have Y'All Envy, as it were; I wish that standard English had some sort of clear second-person plural of its own, because I desperately want to use "y'all" in its proper place, but I am well aware that it's basically unacceptable.)
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I wish that standard English had some sort of clear second-person plural of its own, because I desperately want to use "y'all" in its proper place, but I am well aware that it's basically unacceptable.
This is exactly the argument I use when people roll their eyes at my use of the word y'all. I love this word. Second-person plural is useful, and certainly not as potentially offensive as "you people" or as Electric Company as "you guys" or whatever.
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I don't know what y'all are talking about. 'Round these parts, "y'all" can be singular, plural, or both simultaneously. Don't even get me started on "y'all two."
Most of the people who make the distinction between "you" and "y'all" are transplants, myself included. Then again, I can only speak for Carolinians. Texans and Georgians are an altogether different species when it comes to accents. Hell, we've got a group of Native Americans here (they're still fighting for official tribal status) that still speak with a distinct British accent. Other locals have picked up bits and pieces of their linguistic idiosyncrasies , too. You've not been to the Carolinas unless you've heard an American refer to a shopping cart as a "buggy" or the trunk of a car as the "boot."
And how many of y'all have your picture "made" instead of "taken?"
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NO! BAD JL! NO COOKIE!
"Y'all" is never singular! "Y'all" is second person plural. PLURAL, PLURAL, PLURAL! The only southern place where they use "y'all" as a singular pronoun is Southern California.
"Y'all's" is second person plural posessive ONLY! Anybody who uses "Y'alls" as a second person plural pronoun must be some kind of carpetbagging Yankee.
[/Southern Dialect rant]
I think good grammar and spelling indicate consideration for one's reader. They are the tools of the effective writer. If I want to communicate my message with clarity and precision, I must master the rules of grammar and spelling. Strunk and White rawk!
Clever style is helpful, too.
Since we're flaunting resumes here, I have journalism degree an am a former staff writer, copy editor, managing editor and editor-in-chief. Now I'm an attorney and spend much of my time drafting statutes and regulations which require a high degree of precision. Contracts, policy statements, press releases and agreements also must be exact. When I'm not writing that sort of thing, I'm trying to persuade a judge, jury or hearing officer with compelling arguments or thoughtful briefs.
In my free time I post a bunch of BS for y'all to read.
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I was reading this and feeling like maybe y'all just needed to relax a little.
But then I remembered that just today I got a wonderful email of praise from someone who's sort of one of my bosses, and on whom I have a terrible crush on top of that - and yet it was just slightly a tiny little bit spoiled for me because he spelled 'judgement' - EXACTLY THE WAY I SPELL IT ALL THE TIME. What is more, the dictionary I checked calls that a 'variant' of 'judgment', not even a misspelling. But in my old field we had to write that word all the time and it had to be always spelled the latter way, so it seems wrong to me the other way.
But, see, maybe I just need to relax a little too. I don't think I'm a better person because what should have been otherwise pure joyfulness was affected by someone's spelling.
I also remembered that I once worked as a copyeditor too.
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"Y'all" is never singular! "Y'all" is second person plural. PLURAL, PLURAL, PLURAL! The only southern place where they use "y'all" as a singular pronoun is Southern California.
"Y'all's" is second person plural posessive ONLY! Anybody who uses "Y'alls" as a second person plural pronoun must be some kind of carpetbagging Yankee.
Hey, I said I could only speak for Carolinians. I've heard NC natives do this. Granted, the ones that use "y'all" as an all-purpose substitute for "you" don't tend to be the smartest turnips on the truck. But seriously, correct or no, The Singular Y'all is common usage in certain parts of the state, giving rise to such gems as "all y'all," "y'all two," and my personal favorite, "y'all guys."
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The Singular Y'all is common usage in certain parts of the state, giving rise to such gems as "all y'all," "y'all two," and my personal favorite, "y'all guys."
I wouldn't consider any of those singular. De-y'all-ifing gives us: "all you", "you two" and "you guys", which I would consider to be plural pronoun phrases.
The singular y'all of which I speak is often seen in a sitcom or some other such supposedly sophisticated entertainment. Cletus the gas station attendant, addressing a single solitary person, lets out something like, "Y'all want fries with that oil change?" or "Y'all ain't from around here, is yuh?" to the electronic guffaws of the laff-trak. This is an abomination.
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...giving rise to such gems as "all y'all"
I'm on the Zoloft. That's what's stopping me from killing all y'all. - Mike Tyson
I cannot even begin to imagine the dosage required to make this True.
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Coming from the north I never heard y'all except on TV. We did however have "you guys's" which is of course the possesive of "you guys." For the curious, it's pronounced guy-zez
"You guys's house is really nice. Did you replace the carpet?"
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This thread is now too long for me to read all of it.
Let me just say that I like grammar.
The end.
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"You guys's" makes my soul cry.
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"You guys's" makes my soul cry.
Yeah - should be "youz guys's"!
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"Y'all" is never singular! "Y'all" is second person plural. PLURAL, PLURAL, PLURAL! The only southern place where they use "y'all" as a singular pronoun is Southern California.
Like, geez dude, harsh.
But also true. Thanks for adding yet another reason for me to feel shameful about my geographic location.
This wasn't really meant as a slap at SoCal in general, more as an allusion to the fact that many Television programs and picture shows are produced there. Round about the Hollywood sector of Los Ang-el-eez, I understand.
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Oh yeah, and "you guys's" would be the equivalent of "y'all's", i.e. a second person plural possessive and therefore acceptable when used correctly.
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In reference to JL mentioned boots and buggies (trolleys here in the UK), I actually tend to use the American words for certain things now. I find I talk to so many more Americans or Canadians that it is just easier on the whole, to say trunk, or windshield, or gas, or meer instead of mirror (OK, not the last one, it's just an amusing one I notice especially with Torontoans).
I beging to find the British English words for these things terribly coy in comparison, which in the end makes me going back to them evern harder to stomach.
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I love the way British people use language. That 'understatement' thing is not exaggerated in the least. I find British humor funnier, on the whole, than American humor and not just because they 'talk funny'. There is a whole level of sophistication that seems to lurk beneath proper British English to me. The accent is sexy to me too. Maybe I was born 40 years too late.
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The accent is sexy to me too. Maybe I was born 40 years too late.
It's the one huge benefit of visiting North America, is to be able to speak and have girls look at you a certain way.
Doesn't work here though.
I tend to speak with that hideous level of sophistication of which you speak, mainly helped by my very plain, broadcast English accent (I slip into Scottish sometimes, mainly when on the phone, but most of the time have nearly zero accent).
I do, however, repudiate any claim that I may be upper class. I'm strictly upper working middle class!
I think that translates as poor but well educated or something.
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I do, however, repudiate any claim that I may be upper class. I'm strictly upper working middle class!
I think that translates as poor but well educated or something.
What my mum refers to as the impoverished gentility.
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Damn there is too much in this thread to comment on. I've been a copy editor for my Fathers sometimes rambling, incoherent business letters. I think Y'all technically is a conjunction for you all, but since it's a uniquely southern word and totally cool it's morphed into a catchall replacement for the word you, singular, plural, whatever. In Texas the trolley/buggy is a cart. Oh yeah, Slink, the accent thing works both ways.
~Paul