The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board

Trivial Pursuits => Arts & Entertainment => Topic started by: pmcd9 on February 06, 2010, 03:39:25 am

Title: American Sport
Post by: pmcd9 on February 06, 2010, 03:39:25 am
I happen to find myself on one of the Spanish language stations the other night and they were broadcasting the news.  I think I stopped because they were doing a report on a boxing match.  But then they started covering a "football" match that ended in a 0 - 0 tie.  Despite there being no scoring they had a lot of "highlights" to show. 

It was at this time that it occurred to me why Americans don't care for this sport.  To compare it to American football it was like watching drive after drive after drive that went deep into the red zone and then culminated with a missed field goal.  It was very frustrating to watch.
Title: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 06, 2010, 03:45:26 am
It's like throwing a superball into a small room as hard as you can while people scream in languages you can't quite identify.

There's a lot of action and yelling but after the shock of the cacophony, you start to realize that...

Nothing quantifiable is actually happening.

A series of frenetic bounces here and there, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Title: American Sport
Post by: Drygioni on February 06, 2010, 03:59:55 am
I happen to find myself on one of the Spanish language stations the other night and they were broadcasting the news.  I think I stopped because they were doing a report on a boxing match.  But then they started covering a "football" match that ended in a 0 - 0 tie.  Despite there being no scoring they had a lot of "highlights" to show. 

It was at this time that it occurred to me why Americans don't care for this sport.  To compare it to American football it was like watching drive after drive after drive that went deep into the red zone and then culminated with a missed field goal.  It was very frustrating to watch.

It is the eternal football vs. American sports argument.

All your popular sports are high scoring games. This lends itself to the kinds of stats obsessed wizardry American fans seem to crave, whilst also meaning that the status quo is, normally, upheld. The better team on the day normally wins in a high-scoring game. This is not a bad thing. It's also more enjoyable for families and those not as versed in the sport, I am guessing.

For football fans, like myself, there is a lot of beauty in those highlights. Yes, it can be frustrating watching your team ALMOST score a goal multiple times only to finish scoreless. It is even more frustrating if your team does this but the other team nick a last minute goal. There are a lot of 'lucky' results. But at the end of the day I love it for that, it goes for you as often as it does against you and a match is never predictable and hence always watchable.

I appreciate the aesthetic beauty of the game itself when played well. Something as small as the creation of space to keep possession, a crunching but fair tackle, or a beautiful piece of trickery to create an opening, are 'highlights'. There are often a lot of these each game. Even if it's a physical aerial slug-fest there's a certain visceral pleasure that derives from the physical battle between centre-forward and centre-half and the midfielders.

Of course, compared to your favourites sports, it's different and will therefore seem uninteresting.

America/Canada are probably the only two nations in the world where football is not the first or the second most popular sport, off the top of my head. It seems strange that the most popular sport in the world is so relatively low-key there, maybe in Canada less so. The MLS is growing though apparently and your national team has been impressive recently so maybe things are turning around. You don't produce a lot of natural footballers (yet) due to the lack of footballing culture but you do produce finely-tuned athletes who are well-disciplined tactically and very professionally minded.

Anyway this is a movie thread so that's all I have to say on the matter. And I am tired.

Oh wait LFM is here

It's like throwing a superball into a small room as hard as you can while people scream in languages you can't quite identify.

There's a lot of action and yelling but after the shock of the cacophony, you start to realize that...

Nothing quantifiable is actually happening.

A series of frenetic bounces here and there, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Actually screw it. I've had this debate many times and it's clear cultural differences are the only thing mattering here. I could get the most eloquent, passionate football expert in the world to explain to you why football is a great sport. Equally, you could get a similarly erudite and engaging speaker on why American sports are better. But neither of us will change our opinions and only grow further entrenched in our own beliefs making us less and less likely to view the sports without a certain agenda in mind.

Good day to you sir.
Title: American Sport
Post by: wombat on February 06, 2010, 04:03:45 am
What no one has ever been able to explain to me is this: how did soccer, a game that people riot and beat each other up about in other countries, become a sport for little children in this country?

Not only does no one explain it, it's like no one else even notices how weird it is. Why do all these little suburban kids play soccer? Is the trick that it's a sport that their educated parents can be sure they won't grow up to play professionally instead of being doctors and lawyers?
Title: American Sport
Post by: Drygioni on February 06, 2010, 04:12:37 am
What no one has ever been able to explain to me is this: how did soccer, a game that people riot and beat each other up about in other countries, become a sport for little children in this country?

Not only does no one explain it, it's like no one else even notices how weird it is. Why do all these little suburban kids play soccer? Is the trick that it's a sport that their educated parents can be sure they won't grow up to play professionally instead of being doctors and lawyers?

Oh come on. Every kid here and pretty much everywhere else in the world plays football from a young age. Why should America be any different? I'm just confused here. Playing football at a young age means you won't grow up playing the sport?  ???

Certain sections of football fans beat each other up but in most cases it is gang-related. You'll always get spacktards beating each other up, sport is just a convenient excuse. I've been to many many matches at all levels of the footballing strata and never personally experienced any violence.
Title: American Sport
Post by: CortJstr on February 06, 2010, 04:18:06 am
What no one has ever been able to explain to me is this: how did soccer, a game that people riot and beat each other up about in other countries, become a sport for little children in this country?

Not only does no one explain it, it's like no one else even notices how weird it is. Why do all these little suburban kids play soccer? Is the trick that it's a sport that their educated parents can be sure they won't grow up to play professionally instead of being doctors and lawyers?

Apparently DC's goalie from last year only made $46K so while you can play professionally it might not actually be worth doing so.

My theory is that soccer is safe for little kids while still being athletic. They're running constantly thus getting exercise (unlike baseball which seems to be roughly as taxing as shuffleboard) while still having very little physical contact thus little risk of the kids getting hurt (unlike football/lacrosse). Plus the rules are so simple (offsides excepted) that you can send the kids out there at age 4 and they still get it.

Judy, I think part of the problem is that on the surface soccer is set up in a very similar way to hockey. And while hockey is generally very low scoring (by our standards) there are still usually 5 or so goals per game. Plus there are fights. Thus according to a theory I just made up most prospective soccer fans in the US become hockey fans instead because it's like soccer but more exciting.
Title: American Sport
Post by: wombat on February 06, 2010, 04:19:24 am
Oh come on. Every kid here and pretty much everywhere else in the world plays football from a young age. Why should America be any different? I'm just confused here. Playing football at a young age means you won't grow up playing the sport?  ???

In the US it does - what are the odds a US kid is going to be a professional soccer player? Whereas if you played baseball or something there's the danger you'd have the dumb idea of wanting to do that professionally.

US kids have not always played soccer. No one had heard of it when I was a kid. This is something that happened in my lifetime and there is no good reason for it, since there is no tradition of the sport in this country.
Title: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 06, 2010, 04:20:58 am
However, Judy, I might also be mostly a baseball fan and only taking up in the soccer-vs-football debate to gently rib you, but not in the way that jay-elle wants to "gently rib" you. It is important to consider this as a possibility. haha.

ALSO wombles:

Basically, soccer is a sport that requires almost no equipment beyond a ball, a municipal field with two goals on it that would exist anyway and... possibly cleats but even that's really only if you're looking to buy SOMETHING. And while it is POTENTIALLY a really violent sport, there's no inherent violence or even inherent incidental violence like fouling trying to block a shot in basketball or something.

Beyond that, I mean, there's not a lot of obvious strategy to it. You don't set up plays in the manner of a baseball pitcher or a basketball or football playbook. Maybe there... are for all I know... but nothing that's clear to an outside obverser. There's a ball, you try to either kick it into a net or kick it to your friend to kick it in the net or kick it away from the other dude trying to kick it into the net.

So it's easy as hell for some dad off the street to kinda-sorta-competently coach.

You can have an organized excuse to get your kids to run around in circles and be slightly less fat without having to think too much, pay for too much extra or risk your Little Lord Fauntelroys from actually getting hurt by a tackle or a wild pitch or a pick-and-roll or something.

And how American is that, if you think about.

Fast, disorganized, no-contact and inexpensive but everyone gets to pretend they're "really enriching their kids".

Just WRITING the above sentence, three tiny men started singing the Battle Hymn of The Republic behind my head.
Title: American Sport
Post by: wombat on February 06, 2010, 04:26:44 am
When I have asked this question this is the only answer people have ever given - the explanation of why soccer is a good sport for children.

That doesn't really explain what I am asking. Which is where the hell did it come from? How did someone think of it? Who was watching a bunch of drunken Englishmen beat each other up (Sorry Judy but that is my mental image of the sport) and said "That would be great for eight year olds"?  Is there one person who had this idea who we should hold responsible?
Title: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 06, 2010, 04:37:38 am
Oh. Gotcha.

A bunch of white suburban liberal progressive parent-types, such as the people profiled in "Stuff White People Like" thought that because soccer was European it was a more classy thing to put their kids to task at and then the thing memetically mutated into the orange-slice everybody-wins clusterfuck that spread across the country. This is the story as I understand it, that classic "it is from Europe so it must be classy" thing, even though Actual Europeans use it as an excuse to chant racist slogans at each others' minority players and so forth.

I do not say this with bitterness, though.

I was actually the best goalie in the entire Little Falls-Dolgeville AYSO when I was a child.

(I took up half the goal, because I was tall and fat, and I could kick the ball a long way, because I was tall and fat.)
Title: American Sport
Post by: miles on February 06, 2010, 04:47:03 am
In the US it does - what are the odds a US kid is going to be a professional soccer player? Whereas if you played baseball or something there's the danger you'd have the dumb idea of wanting to do that professionally.

US kids have not always played soccer. No one had heard of it when I was a kid. This is something that happened in my lifetime and there is no good reason for it, since there is no tradition of the sport in this country.

I played soccer up until 7th grade. (I stopped because I sucked at it, but given the chance I would totally play some pick up games here and there. Don't enjoy playing it as much as basketball but it's a close second.) The reason for that is that I had a good time doing it. I didn't care about tradition and the fact that no one in previous generations played it. And now because so many Americans my age played it growing up it is tradition. I don't know the history. But really every sport that is popular in America wasn't always. Does soccer just interest you because it was popular for so long internationally before it was here?

And regarding the chances of American kids playing soccer professionally--that's not why kids play sports. Sure, some of them get the dumb idea that they will do it professionally, but most don't beyond a very young age, and still play beyond that because they enjoy playing.
Title: American Sport
Post by: AugustWest on February 06, 2010, 04:58:37 am
Soccer is fun as hell to play, but I can't stand watching it.

My knees are fucked up in large part because of playing soccer, but I'd do it again. 
Title: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 06, 2010, 05:00:18 am
I mean, though, that COULD be part of it, too.

Since soccer has basically no cultural relevance in America and since it is still a sport where a child will make more money growing up to be a specialist doctor than as a soccer player in America, it DOES kind of have that particular place in our culture for people who aren't trying to delusionally push their children into being the sportstars they wished they had been.

The irrelevance to the adult world, in a perverse manner, is the thing that makes it perfect for the young.

And the Battle Hymn starts playing again...
Title: American Sport
Post by: pmcd9 on February 06, 2010, 05:01:03 am
I think it's interesting that Americans established their own distinct sporting culture separate from Europe.  Most of our culture we brought from Europe with us, but we created our own sports.  That is something I find interesting.
Title: American Sport
Post by: CortJstr on February 06, 2010, 05:16:55 am
Soccer is fun as hell to play, but I can't stand watching it.

I used to think this before I went to a game and stood in the supporters' section. That shit is insane. They sing songs, set off smoke bombs, and hold up giant "Evil Empire" banners. Plus go apeshit whenever the home team scores.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Drygioni on February 06, 2010, 05:45:42 pm
Judy, I think part of the problem is that on the surface soccer is set up in a very similar way to hockey. And while hockey is generally very low scoring (by our standards) there are still usually 5 or so goals per game. Plus there are fights. Thus according to a theory I just made up most prospective soccer fans in the US become hockey fans instead because it's like soccer but more exciting.

Interesting point, happily accepted.

That doesn't really explain what I am asking. Which is where the hell did it come from? How did someone think of it? Who was watching a bunch of drunken Englishmen beat each other up (Sorry Judy but that is my mental image of the sport) and said "That would be great for eight year olds"?  Is there one person who had this idea who we should hold responsible?

Well there's your problem. Football is, at heart, a game based around skill, intelligence and fitness as opposed to great speed and strength. Whilst some big fucker up front will always do well the best team in the world at the moment, Spain, are almost exclusively under 6ft and wee, dwarfed by the Swedish or Germans. But they play technically superb incisive football along the ground and hence beat nearly anyone (except the United States, as it turns out). It is not how you envisage it at all.

This is why it is good for kids. To re-iterate points above, while it is often a violent game (in the Liverpool game today two players pretty much got snapped ankles, lots of face kicks etc.) it is not supposed to be. I played this morning for my 6-a-side team safe in the knowledge I would likely not be nursing anything serious afterwards assuming both teams played fairly. We lost, but I got a very good work-out and many touches of the ball despite having a poor game by my standards. What better game for kids?

As LFM has stated, when it's a very basic level all you need is two goalposts and a ball. Whilst tactics are crucial to top-level football (more on that later) who really cares? Kids love to run around and indeed throughout Europe clubs encourage their youngsters to play free-roaming roles in a 6-a-side game as opposed to assigning them roles at such a young age, this how natural development and footballing intelligence is built. When it's for fun, any old dad can assume the mantle of coach assuming he has the most basic working knowledge of the game. It's perfect for kids and I can't comprehend how you assume it was some crazy idea to pitch it kids.

Quote
Beyond that, I mean, there's not a lot of obvious strategy to it. You don't set up plays in the manner of a baseball pitcher or a basketball or football playbook. Maybe there... are for all I know... but nothing that's clear to an outside obverser

It is more simple on the surface than those sports; like you say, no plays, no overly complicated rules barring offside. Beyond keeper the same rules apply to every player. But...

Quote
. There's a ball, you try to either kick it into a net or kick it to your friend to kick it in the net or kick it away from the other dude trying to kick it into the net.

I hate this. Anything sounds stupid when you put it that way. Baseball: "The pitcher tries to strike out the batter. The batter tries to hit it in a place where the other team won't catch it". Pigskinball: "The quarterback attempts to throw it a player who is on a clear run or start a passing move. The defending team attempt to stop the attacking team from getting in positions to score". Did that infuriate you? Because that is what my flatmate just said when I asked him to describe the games. I and him both know there is 10x more to it than that but that's mostly what we see, like as you see football.

A quick lesson on footballing tactics.

Say you play a 4-4-2

Keeper
Right Back  Centre Back  Centre Back  Left Back

Right Winger  Centre Midfielder  Centre Midfielder  Left Winger

Striker Striker

At it's most basic, defenders would stay back. Midfielders would defend or attack based on the position of the ball and flow of the game. Strikers aim to score, rarely defending.

But.

You could have the left and right backs bombing forward on the overlap as opposed to staying back. Or they could move further into the field making the play narrower. One centre back could move the ball forward in possession whilst the other stays back. Both could stay tight on their marker or drop deeper to avoid being turned. One could even have free license to roam up the pitch. In which case you'd want one of your centre midfielders to drop back, making him the 'defensive midfielder'. The other centre midfielder could push forward forming a diamond shape, making an 'attacking midfielder'. Both could play deep, aiming to control the play. In which case the wingers would look to play further upfield right on the touchline and look for balls into the channels and stretch the opposition defence wide, making it vulnerable. Alternatively, they could play very narrowly, almost becoming centre midfielders. They could simply act as bodies on the wings and allow the play to concentrate for the middle, in which case a striker could sit back and provide a link in the midfield. Both strikers could do this in an attempt to control possession, or one could look for knock-ons for his pacy partner. They could drift wide allowing the wingers to attack through the middle. They could dribble with the ball or simply hold it up and look for the pass.

All these things, and I've missed out hundreds of other possibilities, will have been planned and practised before the game. But perhaps the beauty as well is that a player can use his own intuition here, doing what he feels is right for the situation. If a centre midfielder spots the right back far upfield and about to lose possession, he will often move into the space left to cover. Alternatively, he could leave it. It's all about familiarity and intelligence.

And that's before I even get onto different formations. 4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, 3-5-2, 3-6-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-2-4, 5-3-2, 5-4-1, Barcelona's 4-1-2-3-1. You could play a flat back four playing for the offside or one sat deep to reduce the danger of through balls. You could counter-attack, looking to soak up pressure before launching it forward and catching your opponents off-guard; you could aim to control possession instead, making your way gradually up the field looking for an opening. There's literally thousands of variations on how to defend as a team, attack as a team, and thousands of ways of playing your own individual game. Right, the guy your marking is physically stronger and faster. Drop deep so that he can't turn you or play off your shoulder and hope to force him into a position uncomfortable for him. Playing attacking midfield and being marked tightly? You could drift deep, go wide or look to find space behind him. So many many many ways all of which are considered.

It is not a brainless sport at the highest level. Kids maybe but even if a player could dribble, shoot, pass, tackle, cross and head the ball better than any other player in the world it would mean fuck all if he didn't know where to run, when to run, who to mark, who to pass to at any given moment etc.

Football is less scientifically tactical than your 'plays' where every player has a concrete role he will not normally deviate from. There are formations, and there are instructions, but the real tactics lie in the mind of each player. Those culturally versed in top level football can see and appreciate it, understandably those who are not can't. But then I can't make head nor tail of your sports so I guess we're even.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: dejavroom on February 06, 2010, 05:52:13 pm
It's like throwing a superball into a small room as hard as you can while people scream in languages you can't quite identify.

There's a lot of action and yelling but after the shock of the cacophony, you start to realize that...

Nothing quantifiable is actually happening.

A series of frenetic bounces here and there, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Nah, you're just using your narrow frame of reference to spout irrelevant guessisms. Soccer is about beauty, simple as that, unquantifiable as that. Many a soccer fan has been know to profess the motto that they'd rather lose beautifully than win boringly. And a match that ends 0-0 can still provide many magic moments that don't end with a score. Soccer is about art, individual skill and beauty. It's about the thrill of following a superbly executed move, considering how fuck*ng difficult is to make that ball obey you (and it is very very difficult) Perhaps a cross-cultural analogy might help here:

Beauty in motion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXdqRnMbiNs&feature=related). The same thrill you'd get from Mr. Astaire moving effortlessly, you can get from following a certain player telling the ball exactly what to do. But you have to have an eye for that, and of course if your culture didn't provide you with the tools to appreciate something like that, it's a bit unfair maybe to expect you to understand this point. Maybe soccer is too subtle for you. But at least they taught you math, so you can compute scores, yay = )
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: miles on February 06, 2010, 05:56:09 pm
I really enjoy watching soccer and can't wait for the World Cup. I always thought I had a decent grasp on the rules and strategies of the game for someone who hasn't played it in an organized manner for nearly 20 years. That is, until I read Judy's post. Now I think I should probably take a class or two in it before the World Cup.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Drygioni on February 06, 2010, 06:02:58 pm
Nah, you're just using your narrow frame of reference to spout irrelevant guessisms. Soccer is about beauty, simple as that, unquantifiable as that is. Many a soccer fan has been know to profess the motto that they'd rather lose beautifully than win boringly. And a match that ends 0-0 can still provide many magic moments that don't end with a score. Soccer is about art, individual skill and beauty. It's about the thrill of following a superbly executed move, considering how fuck*ng difficult is to make that ball obey you (and it is very very difficult) Perhaps a cross-cultural analogy might help here:

Beauty in motion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXdqRnMbiNs&feature=related). The same thrill you'd get from Mr. Astaire moving effortlessly, you can get from So you see, barking at the wrong tree again. Maybe soccer is too subtle for you.

Yeah, for all my guff about tactics, in reality they are a crucial part of the sport but irrelevant when it comes to understanding why it is so popular. Football IS a beautiful sport to watch. I would rather my team lost 1-0 playing free flowing football than grinded out a win they didn't deserve.

It is about the magic moments, when a player decides to do something with the ball that is unexpected or unusual and you can't help but laugh with delight. There is NOTHING better than a one-touch football move where every player takes small risks that pay off beautifully. It doesn't always work but it would be boring if players did the efficient thing all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R_iYLca2gc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R_iYLca2gc) That is one of the most beautiful goals ever scored. I won't say why, I want an American sports fan to see if they can see why I would find it beautiful.

I really enjoy watching soccer and can't wait for the World Cup. I always thought I had a decent grasp on the rules and strategies of the game for someone who hasn't played it in an organized manner for nearly 20 years. That is, until I read Judy's post. Now I think I should probably take a class or two in it before the World Cup.

To be honest, anything going that deep into tactics is over-analysing. As a fan, just enjoy watching it. Only managers need concern themselves with it.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Arachno-capitalist on February 06, 2010, 06:05:28 pm
TL;DR: We dont like soccer because we were never schooled in the subtle beauty of the game... which is there, he promises.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Drygioni on February 06, 2010, 06:11:58 pm
Are you Brazilian Dejavroom?

Quote
But you have to have an eye for that, and of course if your culture didn't provide you with the tools to appreciate something like that, it's a bit unfair maybe to expect you to understand this point. Maybe soccer is too subtle for you. But at least they taught you math, so you can compute scores, yay = )

Have to say I don't consider this fair comment, I'd defend football to the death but I'd never accuse anyone who doesn't understand it of lacking an understanding of subtlety or whatever. I think at the end of the day we were brought up to appreciate it, they weren't, just as we weren't brought up appreciate baseball.

Though I enjoy playing rounders.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: dejavroom on February 06, 2010, 06:14:13 pm
Are you Brazilian Dejavroom?

Have to say I don't consider this fair comment, I'd defend football to the death but I'd never accuse anyone who doesn't understand it of lacking an understanding of subtlety or whatever. I think at the end of the day we were brought up to appreciate it, they weren't, just as we weren't brought up appreciate baseball.

Though I enjoy playing rounders.

That one comment was especially for LFM. I'm LFM-ing the argument a bit here >)

Yes, I'm Brazilian, and I don't even follow soccer, there's not much of a sports fan in me. But beautiful lances (as we call the moves) and goals thrill me to no end.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: dejavroom on February 06, 2010, 07:13:49 pm
It is about the magic moments, when a player decides to do something with the ball that is unexpected or unusual and you can't help but laugh with delight.

This. So many times this.

Basketball, to talk about an all-American sport, has this element, where collective cooperation doesn't need to smother individual brilliance (although it is way easier to control a ball with, you know, the parts of your body that were meant to hold and handle things. It's this that adds the extra thrill to soccer. That part of the body had no business trying to do what it's trying to do).
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: pmcd9 on February 06, 2010, 07:34:53 pm
I've thought of another reason why perhaps I don't like soccer.  Instant Replay.  In all of the top American Sports there are breaks in the action where you can get a second look at what just happened.  Soccer never stops so you can't do that.  I don't watch soccer so I don't know if this is entirely true, but I would guess if they showed an instant replay it would come at the expense of the live action.  Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Drygioni on February 06, 2010, 07:43:24 pm
I've thought of another reason why perhaps I don't like soccer.  Instant Replay.  In all of the top American Sports there are breaks in the action where you can get a second look at what just happened.  Soccer never stops so you can't do that.  I don't watch soccer so I don't know if this is entirely true, but I would guess if they showed an instant replay it would come at the expense of the live action.  Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Replays are very frequent, pretty much every time a dead-ball situation occurs or if there's an injury they show what's happened. They'll continue the replay through live play if the situation isn't likely to lead to anything much worth viewing, like the goalkeeper running with it a bit waiting for an option to pass to.

If it's very frenetic then sometimes you have to wait for a replay but it's not too big a deal. You can always rewind it these days as well.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: CortJstr on February 06, 2010, 07:55:57 pm
I just sort of assumed that soccer went the pro-wrestling route with a split-screen replay.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Doc on February 07, 2010, 12:02:01 am
I play soccer a bit at uni but, well, it's no union is it?
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Arachno-capitalist on February 07, 2010, 12:12:42 am
Nascar is so paranoid of missing any moment of the action packed left turning that they run replays and sometimes the commercials in a split screen. (Disclaimer: I have never watched Nascar, but had a roommate who did)
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: jay-ell on February 07, 2010, 03:22:04 am
As I said in the dream thread, I'm not a sports fan in the least, with the exception of hockey (about which I used to be rabid; less so now that I have two kids and no cable TV). But my elder brother played soccer from the time he was five until he graduated from college (he went to school on a soccer scholarship, actually), so I saw a lot of games as a kid. At 8 or 9, I had no concept of the strategy behind it, and we were in the bleachers, so there was no instant replay. But it was fascinating for the same reasons I like hockey: it doesn't stop.

The opposing team gains control of the ball? It doesn't stop.  Two defensemen collide? It doesn't stop. Someone gets a cleat to the nutsack and starts vomiting blood on the field? Send in a replacement; it doesn't stop.

Which is exactly what I hate about football, baseball, and the whole rest of the sporting world: too much standing around pontificating, not enough elbows in faces.

What we need more of is violence.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Arachno-capitalist on February 07, 2010, 03:27:24 am
What we need more of is violence.
What you need more of is rugby. More non-stop violence than the other sports.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: jay-ell on February 07, 2010, 03:32:19 am
Pedro's brother played rugby in college, but I never went to a match. Which is probably a shame, because now I'm at a stage in my life where I would pay a lot of money to see hard-bodied 22 year olds beat each other senseless in the mud, and I don't even have the memories to look back on.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Carlos del Vaca on February 07, 2010, 03:33:50 am
I miss the hell out of playing soccer.  I pretty well gave it up when we had kids.  Now I would have to lose 40 pounds before even thinking of stepping on the pitch.  I would probably die, quite literally, if I attempted to play a full match.  But if I could whip my ass back into shape I could find an over-40 league, now that I am eligible for such things.

Also, what Cort said about watching the match with the crazy fans.  So much more fun than sitting still the whole game.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Doc on February 07, 2010, 03:34:43 am
Rugby doesn't have that girly padding either.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: greenkoolayd on February 07, 2010, 03:36:07 am
What you need more of is rugby. More non-stop violence than the other sports.

IINM, aussie-rules football is rather badass.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 07, 2010, 04:38:18 am
Quote from: jay-ell
too much standing around pontificating

But but... this is EXACTLY why baseball is so awesome.

So much time with which to ARGUE and THEORIZE and DIGRESS.

This is why baseball is the BEST thing.

Of course, as we have established here that arguing and theorizing and digressing are basically all I am good at, perhaps this makes a little TOO much sense.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: jay-ell on February 07, 2010, 04:49:57 am
But but... this is EXACTLY why baseball is so awesome.

So much time with which to ARGUE and THEORIZE and DIGRESS.

This is why baseball is the BEST thing.

Of course, as we have established here that arguing and theorizing and digressing are basically all I am good at, perhaps this makes a little TOO much sense.

Cann'd for self-awareness  ;)
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Lister on February 07, 2010, 08:57:29 am
I disagree that the USA doesn't produce natural football-playing athletes.  They just all grow up to play other sports that pay better.

Randy Moss as a striker?  LeBron James patrolling midfield?  Reggie Bush... anywhere?  If we had a culture built around football rather than American football, I think we just might have won a World Cup or three.

Now, granted, some of our stars would curl up and die on the pitch (Peyton Manning, C.C. Sebathia, Tony Gwinn), but in a world where our Big Three sports never existed, I don't think Landon Donovan would ever have made it to the pro level.

American sports tend to allow for specialization to a degree that few others do (possibly Cricket?  I don't know how that one goes).  C.C. Sebathia can throw a ball 90 feet to a spot where he knows where it is going and you don't.  Tony Gwinn could see what that ball was doing in flight and hit it into a spot where other players couldn't get it.  Barry Bonds replaced his blood with pure rocket fuel and sent baseballs into orbit.  Peyton Manning has a cyborg brain that figures out what 11 opposing players are going to try to do, and then throws a ball where none of them will be.  American football positions have evolved to the point where humans without specific attributes simply can not play them.  You must weigh 290+ pounds to play on the offensive line.  You must be at least six feet tall to play the Quarterback position.*  You must be able to run 40 yards in 4.5 seconds or under to play wide receiver or defensive back.  You must be made of scrap iron and anger to play fullback.

Football has different skillsets for different positions, sure, but everyone needs to run, everyone needs to have ball skills, everyone needs to be accurate passers.  You can have standouts, but no one aside from the Keeper (or Henri) is going to do something that nobody else on the pitch can do at all.  If you don't know the game, you probably can't guess what position someone plays just by physical attributes.  Heck, aside from being enormously, spectacularly fit, few footballers would stand out in a crowd of similarly-dressed people.

And then, yes, there's the fact that there's no discrete way to slice up a game other than minutes or penalties, and this makes it difficult for media to cover them.  American games rarely have more than 60 seconds of continuous action before the play definitively ends.  The spectacular plays can be distilled and described in a sentence or two.  Popular American sports have been born of and shaped by the rise of the media that covers them -- baseball gave birth to the sports writer and, later, the live radio broadcast.  American football began its growth on broadcast television and still drives the industry today.  Basketball practically couldn't exist without television.  All three sports have natural breaks in the action that allow for review, analysis, and most importantly commercials.  All three lend themselves to highlights and sound effects and music videos and rock 'n' roll.  There's the Shot Heard 'Round the World, the Immaculate Reception, The Catch.  Hill to Laettner.  Bill Buckner.  Jordan's game winner in his last shot as a Bull.  The Music City Miracle.  Kirk Gibson.  Willis Reed.  Flutie's Hail Mary.  These moments live forever, and they're complete.  Self-contained.  Discrete.  It's much tougher for that to happen in football, unless it's a PK or corner.

Also you can't watch football games without those godawful droning horns now.

*Some people have claimed that Doug Flutie played quarterback, but since it was for the Bills no records exist of it and thus it is classified as a rumor.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 07, 2010, 10:12:03 am
These are some damned good points, Lister.

In baseball and football both... and to a lesser extent, basketball... there is a statistic for every action, every movement. Even if the offense fails on that play, there is a definite quantifable outcome. A hit or a walk or a strikeout or a flyout for every batter. A run or a pass or an incomplete pass or a run for a loss for every snap. With a properly written scorecard or drivechart, the entire story of the game, incriment by incriment, can be unfurled.

Is it somehow particularly American that we enjoy this so much? That we can capture in numbers a step-by-step stat-by-stat coherent and detailed narrative for our games? Hell, that was one of Ronald goddamned Reagan's first jobs, reading the play-by-play breakdowns off a tickertape to fraudulently pose as an announcer on the actual scenes of baseball and football games.

It is disconcerting, to Americans on any part of the American spectrum, to be told that there's something going on that can't be broken down into a series of steps, whether it is a series of steps forward or a series of defenses set against undesirable progress?

"One little lithe dude passes it slightly to the right to another little lithe dude... who passes it slightly ahead to a third little lithe dude... who then passes it backward to the first little lithe dude, for some reason..." somehow this is just not our mindset? We want a damn storyarc? Hits, runs, yards, completions building to a crescendo of Win or Lose?

A shared national delusion that all things good and bad happen with purpose, in steps and for reasons apparent to all?
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: robot_god on February 07, 2010, 11:45:58 am
Americans don't like soccer for the same reason they don't use the metric system.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Doc on February 07, 2010, 12:06:06 pm
Americans don't like soccer for the same reason they don't use the metric system.

A culture of contrarians?
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: AugustWest on February 07, 2010, 03:35:57 pm
Hill to Laettner. 

Fuck that shit.  Duke sucks and  Laettner is a scumbag of the first degree. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AwYVTB2rZw)  His ass should have been tossed out of that game.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: dejavroom on February 07, 2010, 06:31:01 pm
A culture of contrarians?

DING, people. Like, DING. Well, kinda. I really think it boils down to what your culture taught you to see and appreciate.

But yes, football is loved to the point of apoplexy across all social classes, all the whole dang world over... And let's not even mention Formula One...
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 07, 2010, 06:53:27 pm
We'd rather all go broke off getting the flu than be like other countries, you have us there.

But would social justice be WORTH trying to figure out what's actually happening in a rugby match?
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: CortJstr on February 07, 2010, 06:59:50 pm
But yes, football is loved to the point of apoplexy across all social classes, all the whole dang world over... And let's not even mention Formula One...

What do you mean here? A friend of mine is obsessed with Formula One as she says it's the single most scientific sport in the world and attracts a lot of science nerds.

Soccer in the US is basically like Poland: in our minds it exists only to be mocked. A few weeks ago I as at my parents for one of the NFL playoff games. The kicker came out for one team and the announcers noted he also plays for the an MLS team but used the team's old name. A few seconds later they corrected that the team had changed names, then immediately asked why they bothered since nobody would notice. See also: any time soccer is mentioned on SportsNight.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 07, 2010, 08:47:39 pm
Watching "Major League" on Comedy Central for the nine thousandth time, I cannot imagine how anyone could not love that game.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: littlefallsmets on February 07, 2010, 09:57:35 pm
Wesley Snipes would just get pissed that you paid the sales tax on your ticket.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: oball on February 08, 2010, 02:24:36 am
IINM, aussie-rules football is rather badass.

Ken oath it is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoupKfWPdB8)
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: dejavroom on February 08, 2010, 01:06:04 pm
Soccer in the US is basically like Poland: in our minds it exists only to be mocked.

As Inev once said, and I quote: "A lot of things are ridiculous if you think about them long enough, you know?"
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: theinevitable on February 08, 2010, 09:33:38 pm
this is the second time today that I feel kind of like a famous person.

in one of my classes two people came up to me because they recognized me from my girlfriend's film project. One actually said "I can't believe it's really you!"

It was funny because today we were learning about the Star system in early hollywood.
Title: Re: American Sport
Post by: Doc on February 09, 2010, 10:20:41 am
It was funny because today we were learning about the Star system in early hollywood.

Would it be tedious for you to elaborate on that? Because that sounds kind of interesting.