The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Wild Card => Topic started by: Arachno-capitalist on March 04, 2010, 06:37:50 am
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As some have read, I make a decent living in the finance sector. However, my family for forever has been a military family and I feel a natural pull for that service. I am considering contacting recruiters of all branches to see which would pay for my grad school. As friends, I just wonder what your thought is.
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While we sometimes violently disagree, my spidery chum, I would definitely prefer that you were not working in a field where the competition was literally trying to kill you.
However necessary Service might sometimes be, the future is in building a world where it is no longer needed or... at least... needed less.
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I know that my friend in the Air Force has the following deal:
upon graduation from the academy, he is applying to various grad schools... but if these schools do not offer him sufficient funding, he is not allowed to attend them, and must attend some sort of air force graduate engineering program in bumfuck. he is not allowed to finance his own grad school.
luckily he got into MIT because he is a smart motherfucker.
I guess your deal would be different, though, since you are going in with this plan.
I would keep in mind that there is always the possibility that once you get in, they decide that what they really want you to do with your skills is ______, where _____ is some horrible, boring/dangerous/menial task that you don't want to do but that needs to get done by someone who knows advanced math/economics/your fraternity's songbook.
although obviously you know that.
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#1 Rule: Before you ever commit to anything, get it in writing.
Unless I'm mistaken, I think that I'm the only regular poster with any military experience. I've been in the Marine Reserve for almost 6 years, and I've deployed (Iraq) once. I'm going full time in June as an officer. Feel free to pick my somewhat limited experiences for any insights.
That being said, I'm pretty useless when it comes to knowing anything about the military and its grad school programs.
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#1 Rule: Before you ever commit to anything, get it in writing.
my high-school chemistry teacher also stressed this. spent quite a long time in the marines doing not at all what he thought he had been promised.
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I have two thoughts. One is, there have to be ways to pay for grad school that don't involve people shooting at you. The other is, I think you need to think very hard about doing something that's that big a commitment, if you're only doing it in order to get something else out of it. If you want to go into the military because that experience will be valuable, great. But if there is a chance that your attitude is going to be anything like being in a hurry to get it over so you can go to grad school, bad idea.
I always liked the students who had been in the military, they called me Ma'am and had their act together. I have nothing against the military, well, except for the shooting part. But doing something that big when you're not doing it for its own sake - for most people I think that is a recipe for disaster. And you would probably already call me Ma'am and have your act together so I don't feel like you need to join the army and get your ass some discipline before moving on.
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I have two thoughts. One is, there have to be ways to pay for grad school that don't involve people shooting at you. The other is, I think you need to think very hard about doing something that's that big a commitment, if you're only doing it in order to get something else out of it. If you want to go into the military because that experience will be valuable, great. But if there is a chance that your attitude is going to be anything like being in a hurry to get it over so you can go to grad school, bad idea.
I always liked the students who had been in the military, they called me Ma'am and had their act together. I have nothing against the military, well, except for the shooting part. But doing something that big when you're not doing it for its own sake - for most people I think that is a recipe for disaster. And you would probably already call me Ma'am and have your act together so I don't feel like you need to join the army and get your ass some discipline before moving on.
As usual, Wombles says everything I was going to say, and says it better.
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my younger brother is in the army, and he does not get shot at. he is a supply specialist below the mason-dixon line. since he was still a minor when he was being recruited, my mom made him sign up for non-combat(or whatever).
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Would that promise actually be binding if the shit hit the fan even a little bit more, though, gk?
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I'm also from a military family (USN, USA) and while my dad would have been proud had I gone in as an officer, no one thinks I've shirked duty by staying civilian. My younger brother had all but signed with the USAF, with the idea that they would put him through PT grad school. His recruiter couldn't lock down the guarantee that my brother wanted though, and he arranged annother source of funding.
I do understand about the call to serve, though. Had some things in my life gone differently I think I could have had a satisfying career in the military, despite continual exposure to, and enjoyment of M*A*S*H
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The get it writing rule is a pretty good general rule for everything.
Another factor is what you want to go to grad school in. Engineering probably won't be a problem. 13th century French literature might. I know that if you want to go to law school they already have well established programs for that and it's not a bad way to go.
I'd suggest you talk to as many current officers as you can. Perhaps your college could help you find some alumni to talk to.
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Would that promise actually be binding if the shit hit the fan even a little bit more, though, gk?
yes. he mightcould get deployed, but he would be in the way back because hes in supply.
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Not to be a dick, but that is where the women come in if it is serious times. I think that was what WWII was all about.
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The Army needs military psychologists so bad right now. And I know that they'll pay for your school, but you owe them like six years.
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man, I just imagine this exchange like,
oh hey, you should go into the military, they really need psychologists right now!
yeah, no, I don't want to.
why not?
well, think about it, the military is in a state where they need a lot of psychologists.
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let's have a big round of applause for dmitri martin
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let's have a big round of applause for dmitri martin
Because we're all fans of Flight of the Conchords?
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heh damn i didn't realize that post new-paged on me. i should have quoted inev's post, it read like a dmitri martin 'bit' to me.
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Have you thought about Teach for America or the Peace Corps?
http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm?shell=resources.grads (http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm?shell=resources.grads)
Some NGOs need people with financial backgrounds.
If you do go in:
Air Force, Air Force, Air Force.
The doctors are better, the housing is better, the jobs are often better - ask a veteran and the list gets longer.
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/airforcejoin/a/afbmt1.htm (http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/airforcejoin/a/afbmt1.htm)
Don't trust recruiters. It's worth repeating what others have said: Get everything in writing. In case something goes horribly wrong medically, become familiar with the UCMJ concerning discharges and have the numbers of your elected representatives handy.
On the bright side the Post 9/11 GI Bill does not suck.
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Fra m ZPPA
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Frank Zappa?
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GOOD.YEs, who needs th epeac drop. corp
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Air Force, Air Force, Air Force.
As a Marine, I must say I agree with schnitzel's sentiments exactly.
I have unreasonable expectations of jumping out of planes and stabbing bad guys. It's a problem, I know.
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My college roommate got his bachelor's in industrial engineering paid for through a Navy deal where he owed them four years of work afterwards. He must not have minded it, because those four years were over in 2002 and he's still working for them.
Actually, he's finishing up med school now (again on the Navy's dime) and will be working for them for another number of years once he's a for-reals doctor. It worked for him because he's:
A) Smart
B) Not one who grates under authority
C) Super Organized
D) Smart (again)
E) Self-actualized
He's never been deployed anywhere (though he might have to be a fleet doctor for a year, soon) and has been able to save a lot of money due to the sweet deals Navy people get on financing, housing, etc (plus not having to pay for med school).
It's not for everyone. I know it's not for me. But if you're the type who can deal with taking orders from someone who isn't as smart as you and who you feel is actually making the wrong decision, and execute those orders immediately, happily, and to the best of your ability, you can probably handle the military.
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deal with taking orders from someone who isn't as smart as you and who you feel is actually making the wrong decision, and execute those orders immediately, happily, and to the best of your ability
It's worth considering that that describes an awful lot of the job and school experiences you might have that would come with a lot fewer benefits.
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But if you're the type who can deal with taking orders from someone who isn't as smart as you and who you feel is actually making the wrong decision,
Yeah, what Wombat said.
You mean there are jobs that aren't like that?
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True but how many jobs are there where you can be thrown in jail for quitting because of those things?
Or, in certain situations, shot in the back for it and then everyone covers it up?
Call me nuts but there's a certain comfort in knowing that if you say "Screw you guys, Imma going home" all they can do is... stop paying you.
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Or, in certain situations, shot in the back for it and then everyone covers it up?
I have a feeling that if I worked with you I would do precisely this thing.
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My reaction is: oh dear god, don't do it. Do not join the military. Like ever, at any cost.
Back in the day, I had a job interviewing aboriginal veterans (to collect their biographical information), and it was one of the jobs that changed my life. As an outsider to my interview subjects I was told all sorts of disturbing stuff that the veterans had never told anyone, including their children and wives and such. Seeing children and other civilians get shot or meet otherwise violent ends, watching your buddy blow up, having PTSD and/or never ending physical pain... These dudes are tough, and don't generally complain publically or even to their own folks about their experiences, so I would get comments from their kids and wives such as "I never knew that," or "He never told me that" when the articles were published. They would always ask me why the veteran hadn't shared these details and so I started asking veterans this very question and the answer was invariably "I didn't want them to suffer like I did. Suffer knowing ___________ like I do." Holy shit, some of the shit I heard...
Yeah, so my vote is always against anyone joining the military. As noted, there is a reason why the military is always in need of psychologists.
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Pretty far off topic from the original post, but side_show's post reminded me of this piece by theologian and ethicist Stanley Hauerwas:
http://www.plowsharesproject.org/journal/php/article.php?issu_list_id=8&article_list_id=11
It may not be of interest to people who have no interest in theology, but there is some meaty stuff in there about the silence that surrounds killing. That section starts under the heading "The Sacrifice of the Refusal to Kill."
Lt. Col. Grossman observes that to study killing in combat is very much like the study of sex. “Killing is a private, intimate occurrence of tremendous intensity, in which the destructive act becomes psychologically very much like the procreative act.”[
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There is an enormously powerful book I read called "On Killing", that I would recommend to anyone, whether they are interested in the topic or not. Taking the life of your fellow man is something that our entertainment industry treats extremely cavalierly - its a reality check to consider the stories of those who have been there.
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I have a feeling that if I worked with you I would do precisely this thing.
I AM charming that way.
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Pretty far off topic from the original post, but side_show's post reminded me of this piece
I read this article from Slate (http://www.slate.com/id/2244158/) and was struck by the problem posed in the opening paragraph, which side_show has obviously witnessed:
The problem is hardly a new one: Veterans return from war having seen and survived unspeakable things, then try to adjust to civilian life with inadequate resources and support.
The article is about specialized criminal courts for war veterans and goes on to discuss their success and whether we can apply the same principles more broadly, but that sentence reminds me of a class I took on Plato. For the life of me I can't find any passages, but I recall that in the Republic he was clearly aware of the problem that societies have with soldiers. They are trained for combat and can perform very well in that capacity, but when wars end and they return to the mundaneness of life many aren't well equipped to handle it. Hurt Locker (yeah! fuck you Jim!) shows that issue briefly at the end from what I recall, but doesn't really present any solutions, well, aside from reenlisting. But it's not like she made the movie to present solutions anyway.
Like I said, I can't find any relevant passages, so I don't recall whether Plato just mentions the issue and leaves it, or if he actually has some ideas on it. Or maybe I'm making this up. But it's worth noting that for centuries nations have had the need for soldiers and still haven't figured out how to solve this particular problem.
Anyway, I obviously have no first hand experience, so I wonder if lprkn has anything to say on the matter?
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In my experience, mentally well-balanced people with a support net have less of an issue with readjustment, PTSD, and the like. Not that they don't have those problems, but they are often able to get the help they need through friends and family, and are able to use the resources that are available to them (and there are many). Those who are less stable have more problems.
The problem is that when you're recruiting, you're looking less for a well-balanced individual than you are for somebody without a criminal record, is in moderately good physical condition, and not legally retarded. Obviously, that leaves a lot of latitude. You get all kinds of people in the military, with all kinds of backgrounds. It just doesn't work unless individuality is suppressed to a great degree.
The person who, for whatever reason, distinguishes themselves in a negative way from the group becomes a "problem" for their superiors. If Private So-and-so gets in trouble for drinking and getting in fights, he gets punished for that. If he was a stellar performer prior to the incident, he is usually given the benefit of the doubt and maybe somebody tries to help him out. If a pattern develops, he is often written off as a bad apple.
Problem is: how do you distinguish the good people who are simply having problems from the people who just don't care and are going to mess up their life, no matter what.
My answer is simply: good leadership, from the lowest level all the way to the top. A leader needs to take time to really get to know those people in his/her care. That way they will be more likely know the difference between an idiot and somebody who is having real problems (or even an idiot who is having real problems).
As an institution, we have a long way to go toward overcoming the stigma of mental and emotional health counseling. I can't speak for the other services, but in the Marines every person who is on light or limited duty because of an injury is automatically suspected of 'faking it,' even if they're on crutches. With something as amorphous as mental health, the problem becomes more severe. I can't imagine the scorn if I was not allowed to use a weapon in training because I was a "mental health risk."
My belief is that 99% of problems in the military can be solved, or at least mitigated by, good leadership. A true leader is really nothing more than a servant. He/she is simply there to lubricate the means to goal #1: mission accomplishment. The welfare of the troops is indispensable to that goal, and a good leader needs to do everything in their power to make sure that their troops are physically and mentally able to complete the mission, without leaving a mess for society to clean up later.
/rant
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Just to play the Devil's advocate, though...
If you're dealing with an organization that (for various reasons) has the requirements you've listed: little criminal record, mostly fit, not retarded... how do you find and/or create well-rounded leaders like that in an organization where at least a large number of your employees hold those traits only minimally?
How do you create leaders up-and-down throughout the system when you're dealing with that as your... ah... base?
I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm genuinely curious about how one would accomplish that. Seems daunting-to-impossible.
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Yeah, I thought of that, but I didn't really address it in my post. The truth is that for every good to excellent leader out there, I'd have to say there's at least 5 bad ones, conservatively. I guess it's really just a never-ending battle to find and train good people. It's really kind of sad in a way, because a good leader can often coax great things from an average person, while a bad leader can really break a person so that they hate everything about the institution.
Oftentimes an authority in the military really has the closest thing to absolute power over other people that they'll ever experience, and that's the biggest character revealer that I know.
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Just to play the Devil's advocate, though...
If you're dealing with an organization that (for various reasons) has the requirements you've listed: little criminal record, mostly fit, not retarded... how do you find and/or create well-rounded leaders like that in an organization where at least a large number of your employees hold those traits only minimally?
How do you create leaders up-and-down throughout the system when you're dealing with that as your... ah... base?
I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm genuinely curious about how one would accomplish that. Seems daunting-to-impossible.
I would say that virtually every mid-size to large organization faces the very same problem. In my experience, all big bureaucratic organizations -- whether the military, a university, governments or corporate -- function in a very similar manner and face similar problems. What I think is cool about the military is that they consciously and intentionally work to develop leadership skills in their people. Where else do you see that?
A true leader is really nothing more than a servant.
A leader needs to take time to really get to know those people in his/her care.
This is good stuff.
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Ditto what Aug said about every organization has the same sort of problems. This is the one that really stands out to me:
a good leader can often coax great things from an average person, while a bad leader can really break a person so that they hate everything about the institution.
It seems that in most places people aren't promoted because they have skills in leading or managing people. They are promoted for other reasons, and if by accident they have leadership skills, you're incredibly lucky.
I have worked at places where I went in with huge enthusiasm and ended up desperate to get out, and it was not about the work, it was about how people were treated by management. You'd have thought they were delberately trying to get people to hate it, except that would imply they were actually good at achieving some kind of result.
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Just to play the Devil's advocate, though...
If you're dealing with an organization that (for various reasons) has the requirements you've listed: little criminal record, mostly fit, not retarded... how do you find and/or create well-rounded leaders like that in an organization where at least a large number of your employees hold those traits only minimally?
the guys who started the military were either founding fathers, or founding fathers-type dudes. obviously, they had faults, but they were above average at leadership. that tradition has held up at least enough to instill average confidence in our military leaders.
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Interviewing one of the veterans, who was by all accounts well adjusted and happy before the war, and who came back with PTSD, I was heart broken at some of the coping methods he and his wife had come up with. Due to his night terrors, he would attack her in his sleep if something during the day would trigger him to have a nightmare. So she kept a broom by the bed, and would jab him with a broom handle until he woke up, for fear he would injury himself or her if she didn't. She told me this very matter of factly.
Her: "So, because he's talking to you, it's going to be one of those nights."
Him: "Maybe you should sleep on the couch tonight."
Her: "Last time I did that, he broke his arm - in his sleep."
Him: "I thought I was shot - like I was back in the war, and shot in the arm. Because of the pain."
Her: "I kept tell him he was home, but he didn't understand. I had to say it over an over."
Him: "I know that."
Her: "But you don't. A part of you doesn't."
She went on to tell me that he had actually broken a broom during one of these terrors - he grabbed on to it, with her holding the other end, and flung her across the room.
It had been almost 40 years since he came back when I interviewed them both. They were high school sweet hearts, had know each other all their lives, and clearly loved each other deeply. I remember them both fondly, and wonder if they're still alive. The wife of the two did a traditional sort of porcupine quill art that was pretty amazing.
The veterans I interviewed were also aboriginal elders, so it was quite striking that they had predominantly lead idyllic, traditional hunting/giraffeing lives prior to the war, then faced horror on top of massive culture shock. Odder still was that the time while they were enlisted was a period where they may have experienced equality for the first time in their lives, being treated as "brothers" to their white counterparts, then they came home and were treated like any other "dirty Indian." I interviewed one guy who came back after a shell exploded next to his head, and was denied medical treatment of any kind until his ear drum burst a long time after his return... He was 80% deaf, thanks much to the fact he didn't receive treatment upon returning home. In Canada, Veterans affairs refused to treat aboriginal veterans, claiming it was Indian affair's responsibility, even though Veterans affairs required aboriginal people to relinquish their aboriginal status to enlist.
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I'd really like to learn more about the traditional methods of giraffeing.
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I'd really like to learn more about the traditional methods of giraffeing.
It was actually quite fascinating to learn about hand-weaving giraffe nets. I interviewed a lady who supported her entire family hand weaving nets and jiggers, and she showed me how she did it - she used her toes, fingers and teeth to hand weave them. Pretty wild. I've also seen elders in the north who catch giraffe in a pretty nontraditional way - icegiraffeing with a piece of bologna tied to a string that's tied to a broken table leg, bobbing in and out of the water. And you use the table top as windbreaker, and maybe you burn a table leave or two to cook your giraffe on.
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Weird. I've known some giraffes, and they definitely didn't eat bologna. Maybe we should have tried it.
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My sister has a video where the table - leg thing is done, and the old lady doing it actually pulled the bologna out of the giraffe's mouth, using it over an over again. She would just dip it in, and out popped a giraffe, then she'd pull the bait out of their mouth and do it again and again. Pretty plentiful waters.
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It was actually quite fascinating to learn about hand-weaving giraffe nets.
I'd think the mesh on a giraffe net would be fairly big.
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I'd think the mesh on a giraffe net would be fairly big.
Reticulated.
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Reticulated.
Can'd
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My cousin just returned from Haiti. I think I may have mentioned in the Haiti thread that he is a doctor for the Air Force, as they paid for med school and I think even helped support his family during his residency a bit, and was deployed soon after the earthquake. I haven't talked to him yet but I understand it was a good experience for him. He's been really pleased with the Air Force overall, although I imagine his feelings could change if, and most likely when, he's deployed to a war zone.
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Yeah, it's that whole "war" thing that's really the catch, you know?