The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: Carlos del Vaca on January 03, 2013, 03:00:51 pm
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I always thought it a little odd that my high school glee club did a full-blown production of "The Song of Christmas" every year, with kids playing Joseph and Mary and shepherds and angels and all. It seemed to clearly violate that whole church 'n' state thing. But I never got stirred up about it enough to make a ruckus or anything (which surely would have made me very unpopular).
So now this article is making the rounds, about some anti-religion group from Wisconsin telling the high school to knock it off.
http://www.publicopiniononline.com/news/ci_22298993/wisconsin-group-tells-chambersburg-glee-club-cut-christmas?source=email
The comments are, rather predictably, "These people need to mind their own business/grow up. It's not hurting anybody." There's just this base assumption that everyone is a Christian and if you're not it shouldn't be a big deal. Absolutely zero consideration to what it must feel like for children, or parents of children, who are not of the Christian faith.
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I really had a knot in my undies about the FFRF spoke-hole using the word compelled in describing the Nativity gig until I saw this in the comments:
I must be getting old and soft because I think life is pretty much some variation of grey anymore. I'm cool with watchdogs like FFRF looking at things, but go after actual instances of forced compliance. This seems to be running in an OK manner, nothing compulsory and with respect for other worldviews besides vanilla christianity. Give people the slack to be human to each other and slap the dolly ding-dongs out of those who cross the line would be my preference.
But then we'd have to have an adult society and I'm seeing less evidence of that every year.
Did Non-Christian students have to attend? Was it put on by an official class or by a club? Did it have any non-religious educational content?
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My guess here is that it is one of those things where ON PAPER it is voluntary but in practice, Bible-thumbing asshole teachers tell you that you have to or you have to write an extra paper or you don't get to go to the class Christmas party or you have to go to a normal boring class when everyone else is pretending to be farm animals or whatever.
That's generally how we were coerced into religious shit in my school when I was a kid. They didn't quuuuuuuuuuuuuuite force you, so that they couldn't have it on paper to sue you them but effectively they were still forcing you to pay tribute to their particular skymonste.
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Shove it, Socrates. Type more words.
orotund
beefsteak
quarter
lectern
does
placid
within
teal
asparagus
stretching
eighteen
can
pencil
warmest
my
ball bearing
Manganese
fig
bulbous
quaintly
moth
rupture
cite
equinox
cheese
Oregon
pimiento
fuzzy
up
calamitous
mincing
gravel
poke
How's that?
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Did Non-Christian students have to attend? Was it put on by an official class or by a club? Did it have any non-religious educational content?
1. If I recall correctly, there was a performance during the school day, and then two more in the evening. The first one was more or less mandatory. The evening ones not at all.
But it's the kind of thing that even if you said "Teach, as a Muslim I'd rather not have to sit through this," and they let you sit out, chances are other kids would be all "What the hell is wrong with you?" And who knows what would happen from there.
2. Glee club students actually got credit for it, so it was an official class. What I'm not sure of is if a student said to the Glee Club director, "I'm not comfortable with this piece," if they were allowed to sit out, or if it was "You're out of the Glee Club, then." If the latter, then I'd say that's more or less "compelled"--if you want to be in the glee club, you have to sing this Christian-centric song.
3. Educational content? Questionable. Non-religious? Sure, the concert always has songs about Santa and snow and stuff. I don't recall any songs about Hanukkah or Ramadan, but I could be wrong, particularly on the former (we did have a small Jewish population).
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Oh lighten up, Francis.
You want my opinion? Fine.
I think it's bullshit. In this day and age, church stuff belongs in church. There's plenty for the schools to accomplish -- they don't need to be taking on religious education. Spend that time teaching reading, writing or math. Or music or theater. Leave religion to the family and to the church.
The very same people who scream the loudest about religion being taken out of schools are the ones who are outraged (OUTRAGED!!!) if a religion other than their own is even mentioned in front of their precious babies.
Christians should have the same rights as everybody else to access public facilities, but they shouldn't be allowed to compel anybody to participate -- either explicitly or in a de facto manner. They have no right to use the power of the government to indoctrinate others. Everybody's tax dollars fund that school -- why should one group of people's religious beliefs be celebrated using those tax dollars? How is it "conservative" to think that the government should have the power to tell you (or your children) how to think about God?
Is that enough, perfesser?
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I checked the comment thread on the original article again--looks like some atheist/non-Christian types have waded into the fray. This should be entertaining.
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I'm glad there are voices of descent in this regard. The problem, I think, is that these situations always get simplified into diametric opposites, rather than the multiple variables that the reality of the human experience encompasses. Life isn't black and white like this. Maybe there was a kid in the choir, or who would have been in the choir if not for this content, who needs someone like this group to give him/her a voice. Maybe there's a kid in the choir who is non-Christian but who loves dressing up and singing Christmas carols. Probably there were some kids who were ambivalent about it, and, being in High School, would have appreciated being included in a guided conversation. The article indicates a "local complaint" was the cause of the Freedom From Religion Foundation's action. This means someone within the community and possibly the school was uncomfortable enough to raise a complaint. What's sad is that it sounds like, from the excerpts of the letter the article includes anyway, even in a school, there is no room for educational discourse. "The district didn't halt or alter its Glee Club performances this year." But did they discuss it with teachers, students and the community? Or are they just claiming their end at the opposite pole? Or are have they been pushed into a fearful silence?
I was watching one of the endless Canadian programs discussing American thought, and the theorist, who I wish I could remember, was talking about how Americans tend to be overly concerned with polarity - in politics, life and belief. He made the example of how that Newsweek cover described Obama as the "First Gay President" while in Canada we had a prime minister who legalized gay marriage, but never got assigned to such a niche. The whole "you either are or you aren't" thing is something I simply can not process as true in practically aspect of real life.
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As probably the most religiously devout people left on this board, I have to say that I think that the school hosting an overtly Christian performance is horrifying. Funny how the same people who are saying "It's no big deal" would be the first ones picketing if there were, for instance, a mandatory school assembly for Passover or Ramadan. Parents need to teach whatever religious beliefs they want their kids to have at home, and let them learn about diversity and tolerance by experiencing it for themselves at school.
I don't get how there can possibly be more than one response to this. Oppression is bad, people.
Separation of church & state: it's Constitutionally delicious!
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Playing devil's advocate (or rather, the opposite, hurr hurr) does mandatory participation (let's say it was mandatory for simplicity) in a play based on a christian story equal indoctrination? When I was in primary school we learnt a little bit about the Dreaming (indigenous Australian mythology) and some asian mythology. If it were a class project to put on a play about some of the myths we learnt about would we be being indoctrinated or just learning about other cultures in a new way?
Of course it's not an apples to apples comparison because in that school district I imagine christianity is the dominant force but I'm not sure mandating participation in a play is the same as forcing someone to sit in a classroom where they are taught 'accept Jesus into your heart or you are a fundamentally bad person.'
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That's a valid point Doc, and kind of what I was getting at with my "educational purpose" question. Is this part of a legitimate, non-biased curriuculum that studies a broad range of religions, or is it just doing the Christmas pageant with a wink and a nod toward the Constitutional niceties.
Also, endorsements can be explicit or implicit, right? Meaning that an official school performance may not openly or explicitly proselytize. But if one religion's holidays are the only one celebrated, even if scrupulously free of any sort of pressure, it still sends a subtler message of endorsement, doesn't it?
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If it's the only holiday celebrated, that message doesn't seem subtle at all.
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i didn't declare war on christmas. christmas declared war on me.
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Background: I was raised half-assed Catholic, don't remember any point at which I believed a word of it, except the part about Santa bringing gifts on Christmas. But also I was a choral singer from a pretty young age, which means you sing Christian music unless you want to miss much of the great work of several centuries. I sang it in churches even, because that's where they want it sung. From my point of view this was much like putting on a class play about the Dreaming or Greek mythology. It had nothing to do with belief.
So here's the question: on the one hand I absolutely believe there should be no religion in school. But on the other, as soon as you bring the Glee Club into it, I get worried. Are they not going to be allowed to sing the Mozart Requiem because it's a mass? Is that different enough from a celebration of a holiday? I would certainly have never had the experience of learning any of that music if I hadn't been able to do it in school.
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Wombat, I almost made that same point. Thanks for bringing it up. I played Beethoven's 9th. in Highschool band. I'd have hated to miss that.
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If it's the only holiday celebrated, that message doesn't seem subtle at all.
This but also the other post Wombat made. There's got to be a balance between acknowledging that much of western history and culture is christian history and culture while also being clear that it's hardly the only option. Not sure anyone is striking it.
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Christian-centrism is often an extension of Eurocentrism in schools, though. Sure, let the kids sing Christmas music at Christmastime. Nobody wants to miss out on The Messiah. But include music, art, and literature of other traditions on their important holidays. Where are the Chinese New Year parades up in this piece? How many schools offer Seder break? (Spring breaks that coincide with Easter decidedly Do Not Count.) Why don't we celebrate the end of Ramadan with as much aplomb as the end of Lent? (ProTip: Just because you didn't fast for 40 days doesn't mean you can't show your titties.) What else am I missing? I don't even know, because I went to public school in America.
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(...)acknowledging that much of western history and culture is christian history and culture.
Delicious point.
There are these two young giraffe swimming along and they happen to meet an older giraffe swimming the other way, who nods at them and says "Morning, boys. How's the water?" And the two young giraffe swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes "What the hell is water?"
Christianity is the water in that anecdote. No adult could possibly be psychologically functional resetting all his past experiences and making do with only, say, the last three years worth of memories. Unfortunately that's pretty much the situation the Western world finds itself in, glibly choosing to ignore (or to treat with temerarious levity based on shoddy historical revisionism, which amounts to the same) 2.000 years of formative history and focusing only in the last, say, 300 years. Therein lies collective neurosis. I think it was Ortega y Gasset who said something like "The well-formed man is a compendium of the past". It's not "not respecting/acknowledging/complying with Christian traditions" that irks me. It's when I start seeing ignorance being used as a point of view that I really have to go gnaw on something while thinking pretty thoughts.
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Christianity is the water in that anecdote. No adult could possibly be psychologically functional resetting all his past experiences and making do with only, say, the last three years worth of memories. Unfortunately that's pretty much the situation the Western world finds itself in, glibly choosing to ignore (or to treat with temerarious levity based on shoddy historical revisionism, which amounts to the same) 2.000 years of formative history and focusing only in the last, say, 300 years. Therein lies collective neurosis. I think it was Ortega y Gasset who said something like "The well-formed man is a compendium of the past". It's not "not respecting/acknowledging/complying with Christian traditions" that irks me. It's when I start seeing ignorance being used as a point of view that I really have to go gnaw on something while thinking pretty thoughts.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying, would you be so kind as to explain it to me please?
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What Paul said.
What worries Me is the solution that ends with a bunch of teachers teaching kids half-assed holiday songs in languages none of them speak, so that they will be allowed to do their Christmas pageant.
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Well the Mozart Requiem was in a language none of the teachers spoke either, so I'm not sure that's a problem in and of itself.
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I just imagine it turning into this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md-rVDixERM) Which has always made me feel super weird.
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I attended my 4 year old niece's Christmas program last month. It was at a Catholic school she's not at all affiliated with and most of the kids were Mormon. She was really adorable. And a lot bigger than the other kids in her group, but she's always been small for her age. I commented on this to my sister and I guess the rest of them were 3 years old.
I have nothing else to add, but I am really enjoying all of your thoughtful and intelligent posts on this issue.
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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying, would you be so kind as to explain it to me please?
This is not code language. Nothing else I could say would make more sense given whats being discussed. But if you can be more specific, that would help.