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Author Topic: I voted today!  (Read 18088 times)

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arkabee

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« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2004, 05:17:33 am »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
Quote from: "arkabee"


i want smaller government, i want less interference in personal life, i want to keep my liberties and freedom.

why am i unable to call myself conservative?


The only reason I can think of is that you feel you are entitled to these things and don't need to work for them.


i'm glad i had to run earlier and did not have time to respond immediately, since my initial reaction was righteous indignation.

so in order to call oneself "conservative", one must actively work to keep the liberties and freedoms promised (and dare i say "entitled" to the citizenry?) in the constitution, bill of rights, and subsequent ammendments?  i must actively work against a government bent upon making itself larger and more powerful?  i must work towards keeping others from choosing which morals i should have?

what do you mean exactly? to dedicate myself to public service and work inside the system to stem it from going in ways i do not wish?  to work hard in the community to show others my shining example?  work hard and make money to pay my taxes?

rereading this, i might sound snippy, especially if you are coming from a defensive position (which i'm not saying you are, but you seem to be the only "proudly declarative" republican on this board, and there are several threads with you on one side and the rest of the thread on the other).

i am not trying to be snippy, i am trying to engage you in discussion that i might benefit from your perspective, a perspective that appears to be vastly different than mine though both of us might be looking at the same thing.
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« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2004, 06:24:06 am »

arkabee, you..are..rad
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AlohaDawg

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« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2004, 06:28:34 am »

I was being sarcastic, because there are those who believe Liberals believe in an entitlement society. Sorry if that was taken seriously. You seem sincere enough and also not the kind to wait for the government to come and take care of you.

I imagine you are probably moderate. I've found, as have many people my age, that as the years have gone by and the responsibilities have piled on, I've become by nature more conservative. I think even people who are exremely or radically liberal in their younger days often move to the right, although not all of them (naturally) make it to the middle or past it. I think that experience shapes our beliefs to a large degree. I'm not presuming that you will become a right-wing conservative but I think you may well become, eventually, more conservative than you are now.

Whatever you believe and whereever you fall, I hope that what you value as a person is reflected in your political beliefs and that you are able to sincerely and without hesitation or self-censoring express them to whoever you want. That is the country I want to live in.
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« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2004, 12:35:08 pm »

But the Republicans aren't even conservative.
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« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2004, 02:00:33 pm »

Quote from: "Nabubrush drinks (a lot)"
I can't remember; did I mention I got married at a donut shop?


Now that is a beautiful idea for a wedding.
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« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2004, 03:16:44 pm »

Quote from: "wombat"
Quote from: "Nabubrush drinks (a lot)"
I can't remember; did I mention I got married at a donut shop?


Now that is a beautiful idea for a wedding.

I'm sad because I wanted to include a link to the shop, and their link seems to have disappeared.
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arkabee

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« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2004, 03:34:55 pm »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
I was being sarcastic, because there are those who believe Liberals believe in an entitlement society. Sorry if that was taken seriously. You seem sincere enough and also not the kind to wait for the government to come and take care of you.

I imagine you are probably moderate. I've found, as have many people my age, that as the years have gone by and the responsibilities have piled on, I've become by nature more conservative. I think even people who are exremely or radically liberal in their younger days often move to the right, although not all of them (naturally) make it to the middle or past it. I think that experience shapes our beliefs to a large degree. I'm not presuming that you will become a right-wing conservative but I think you may well become, eventually, more conservative than you are now.

Whatever you believe and whereever you fall, I hope that what you value as a person is reflected in your political beliefs and that you are able to sincerely and without hesitation or self-censoring express them to whoever you want. That is the country I want to live in.


i've found that often times there are specific issues that are "hot buttons" for individuals.  issues that when brought up in conversation, the person affected by them will immediately JUMP UP and start SHOUTING, usually incoherently.

we are veering into that territory, so i am trying my best NOT to jump up and be any more incoherent than i normally am.  so, if i am more incoherent, i apologize.

I do not remember the 2nd half of my senior year of high school.  I know that my father was "illegally" fired from his job for firing an employee who was consistantly late and etc.  There was no severence pay, there were legal fees.  Let me add that his position was in a non-public school.

It was winter in northern wisconsin.

Let me explain winter in northern wisconsin.  (incidentally, i have lived in many places, for very short periods of time.  i have lived in wisconsin in three distinct and separated periods of time[edit- i guess it was four]).  when i was in first grade, i remember there being a layer of SNOW on the inside of the Front Door.  The Front Door was not "malfunctioning".  There was nothing wrong with the front door.  there was not anything wrong with the Storm Door on the outside of the Front Door.  There was weather stripping, and it was functional and well maintained.  It's just that when there's that much wind, and that much snow, and it's that cold, that the snow just _seeped_ under the door.  That's not a complaint, that's just how it is.

So, it was winter in northern wisonsin.  my father had lost his job.  my mother has had health problems as long as i can remember.  regardless of her health problems, she had always tried to work as much and as often as she could.  at that point in time, she was working part time as a substitute teacher and as a music teacher / instructor.

Any benefits that my father may have had at the time were lost.  my mother, as a part time employee for the public school system was "entitled" to no benefits (which i would absolutely agree with.  part time employees of any business are not "entitled" to benefits).

so, ya, "boohoo" times are tough.  we "cinched our belt" and carried on.  dad was particularly demoralized, it appeared, due to the inequities of the whole system, a system up until then he had Faith in. [edit- not the Governmental system, the specific system he was working for]

regardless, it was our family's duty as good citizens to pick ourselves up and move on.

one thing i remember is when the ambulance came, and that it couldn't back up to the front door, because there was too much snow.

my mother had a blood clot in her leg.  she'd had it for some time.  the blood clot had become dislodged and was "thrown".

when a blood clot is "thrown", it can go two places, as i understand.  somewhere not important, or to the heart where it causes the person to die.

the angels that my mother has Faith in must have been directed by the God that my mother has Faith in, because she survived.

am i proud of the fact that as a minor i subsisted on Food Stamps for a period of time?  am i proud that the "State" paid for _some_ of the medical treatment that KEPT MY MOTHER ALIVE?

YES I AM PROUD!  i am Absolutely Proud that the Greatest Nation of the World in all of History has safety nets in place such that its citizenry can rely upon The State for support in times of Dire Need.  I am Proud that The State will not let Mothers die and Children Starve.

When someone talks about "Entitlement", i feel a rage build up, an  IRRATIONAL reaction.  I irrationally "hear" them say "blah blah entitlement blah blah YOUR MOTHER SHOULD BE DEAD" and i want to IRRATIONALLY grab them by the throat acnd scream "FUCK YOU! YOU fuck*ng DIE!".

i know that such a reaction is irrational.

Rationally, i believe that i am blessed to live in the Greatest Nation of history.  There are wealth and resources present in this country that do not exist in other times or other places.  I feel that it is MORALLY WRONG and Unjust for there to be hungry children in this Nation.

I feel that it is Morally Wrong and Unjust for The State to let those who give their life to making the State Stronger and more Prosperous die.

Did I or my family "wait for the government to take care of [us]"? NO!  I continued to work at my after school job, and was FORTUNATE enough to have an employer who as Able and Willing to give me more hours.  My Father made every effort to find work in a community that Actively Shunned Him due to Unsolvable Social Injustice.

My Father was FORTUNATE enough to find a job late that winter, in Southern Missouri.  My Mother was BLESSED to have recovered, and as soons as she was able, she went back to working for the Public School system, regardless of the constant harrassment by Petty Minded individuals in order to give me the Opportunity to finish High School.

The entirety of my Father's career has been spent in Education or Public Health or Religious Pursuit.  He talked a man off of a bridge.  He counselled Adolescents and children, Alcoholics, and the Mentally Ill.  He has taught or worked in Elementary, Middle, and High School.  He is teaching, again, at a College Level.  My Mother has taught, been a substitute teacher, worked in Church Administration, and followed Religious Pursuits.

I had the opportunity for a "free ride" through college paid for by the State (secifically a "state" and not federal, but regardless) and chose NOT to take it. I worked for a temporary agency as a City Garbageman. I worked    during college (as most do). I took private scholarship and Federal Loans, and ultimately did not finish my Bachelor's career because i could not afford to continue at the Institution i had dreamt of attending since i first wished to attend College.

Until 1 year ago, I had been working at a local Small Business with No Healthcare.  A majority of what i did was for local municipalities, counties, and police forces as well as for local medical facilities.  The other signifigant part of what i did was to help people who had no idea how to use a computer, the self-proclaimed "computer illiterate", connect to the internet so that they could access the wealth of information and knowledge and communcation potential available. [edit 1- see footnote]

during that time, i paid my incredibly low monthly fee to the state (not federal) healthcare program.  I used the benefits of that Program for Two Issues.  The first, which required local outpatient surgery, my doctor declared "how the hell did you go this long with this?" when i finally came in.  the second required surgery at a hospital when i was unable to walk without the pain causing negative affects to my work performance.

now i guess it's _my_ turn to be sarcastic:

ya, it would seem that Me and My Family sure do feel ENTITLED to benefits from the government and are Unwilling to work for them.



[edit]-  made some typo fixes, and this:

[1] i do not imply that my customers, whom i supported, were ignorant or less intelligent or anything.  there is a large base of people who ARE self-proclaimed "computer-illiterate".  i make a point to take time to explain to these people that the fact that they do not know how to do something does not make anyone better than them.
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slink

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« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2004, 05:18:41 pm »

Arkabee, to be honest I don't think it's at all irrational, but then I am one to get angry easily at the state of the world.
I don't know, when it gets to this I find it difficult, since...
Well, essentially a similar situation in many ways.
For a long time my mother didn't work, and then my father got ill, when I was very young, with chronic fatigue syndrome, which has never improved. This means he lost his job as an educational psychologist. Fortunately my mother had started work due to the Lockerbie disaster, and moved onto a job she is now happy with too, but it doesn't exactly rake the cash in. They are just about comfortable though, and the long fight for the inheritance that was left to her has helped greatly.
But that aside, without national health care and the benefits my father was entitled to, I hate to think how things would have turned out.

That's not where it ends, but I don't feel like getting into the rest of it, as, well, it's in progress and rather personal... But, basically, yea, I know some of how you feel. I can't believe that people don't think it's a good idea to support people. It's like y'all were saying about how in some states you can give your baby to a cop and know they'll be fine... There is NO GOOD REASON why anyone should die from malnutrition or illness when the corporate fucks who are in charge have more than enough money as is, and they're just ensuring they can take more.

I really need to stop thinking about this shit, it's starting to make me feel sick...
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arkabee

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« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2004, 06:37:49 pm »

Quote from: "slink"

I really need to stop thinking about this shit, it's starting to make me feel sick...


which was not my point at all, nor was my point to garner sympathy for "a hard life".  my feelings are that just about everyone in life has had "a hard life" in some aspect, and that i really shouldn't try to judge other's lives as compared to my own.

my point was that individuals and families that recieve assistance from their government do not necessarily feel entitled to be given an entitlement or dole from the government, and that i feel it is immoral for a government as strong as mine to not help those who need help, be it that they've lost their job due to Unjustness, lost their Homes due to Hurricanes, or lost their Families due to War or Terrorist Attack.  If it is in this Nation's Power to help those who need help and who dedicate their lives to investing into this Nation's Power, to turn its collective back upon those people is evil.
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« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2004, 07:27:43 pm »

Ark -

Your family DID work for them. And you rejected free college because you had a different vision for yourself. That takes some strength of conviction.

Your parents are strong people and I imagine you are too. I agree completely with the idea that the State maintain safety nets for people with specific needs.

I disagree with the notion that the third generation of people on general relief deserves continued support - although they should be empowered to earn what they need. That's the kind of 'entitlement' I'm talking about. There is a vast difference between being 'entitled' to something and 'deserving' or 'needing' something. I think your family both deserved and needed the assistance you got; I think that what your family got was the temporary help you needed due to a circumstance which you overcame.

Also, on a personal note, I think it's awesome that you can dig down and share some intensely personal stuff. I'm sorry that my somewhat sarcastic statement touched a nerve with you; I distinguish your situation sharply from the mentality of entitlement and certainly would not make a statement intended to belittle your experience or be hurtful.
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slink

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« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2004, 07:46:34 pm »

Quote from: "arkabee"

which was not my point at all


Well, I just think that, while a system where anyone is entitled to assistance is prone to abuse, it is wrong to have any other system, as then it just causes people to go without healthcare, food or housing.
I don't want to be angered by the situation, I'd rather be motivated to go out and help, but it's not the case when things are so far gone. For me at any rate.
It's not helped by the fact that I am trying to sort shit out as is (since I am not entitled to any assistance other than health care, which hasn't gotten me anywhere with my illness), and I live somewhere where there are few, if no people to assist anyway.
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arkabee

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« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2004, 08:04:05 pm »

Quote from: "slink"
Quote from: "arkabee"

which was not my point at all


Well, I just think that, while a system where anyone is entitled to assistance is prone to abuse, it is wrong to have any other system, as then it just causes people to go without healthcare, food or housing.
I don't want to be angered by the situation, I'd rather be motivated to go out and help, but it's not the case when things are so far gone. For me at any rate.
It's not helped by the fact that I am trying to sort shit out as is (since I am not entitled to any assistance other than health care, which hasn't gotten me anywhere with my illness), and I live somewhere where there are few, if no people to assist anyway.


slink,

i must apologize and clarify.  it was not my point to post something that would end up making you sick to your stomach nor unsettle you etc.

as for "trying to sort shit out", you certainly have my sympathies and commiseration on that issue in general.

i think you bring up an excellent point, which (if i may) i will attempt to reiterate:  even a messed up system, that can and is abused, that exists to help people is better than no system at all.

i agree with that statement, to a point.  i do not know how to clarify where that point is, other than to say that at some point the abuses to the system may cause more "evil" than the benefits of the system may cause "good".  at that point i would think that the system is not better than no system at all, and that point the system should be overhauled or scrapped and recreated with checks built-in to halt the abuses which experience has shown have happened.

and i feel that many of the people, whom i have spoken with, who cry out against the abuses of the system feel that that point has been met and crossed.

which is why i feel it necessary to speak of my first hand experiences, to show that yes while the system is being abused and causing "evil" the system DOES still cause "good".

i do not know how to fix the system, but i truly fear that if nothing is done rationally that an irrational reactive (rather than proactive) backlash against the abuses of the system will cause the system to be dismantled to such a point that the "good" that it does cause will be lost and that the "evil" that it does cause will never be redressed nor corrected.

perhaps that is what is meant by "pluck the eye to spite the face".
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« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2004, 09:07:11 pm »

Don't worry about it. Nothing you said made me feel sick, it's just how I keep feeling when I think about it all, and well, what with the events currently it's all on my mind a lot anyway.

I certainly agree with you on that. I certainly don't feel the line has been crossed yet, but I guess mainly because I feel the people in charge have too much money for their own goods as is, and so something needs to be done tax-wise to redress the system. Damn fat-cats!

I spent years watching my parents struggle through taxes, and council tax which we pay the same as in a city - despite the fact the only amenity we get that that pays for is waste disposal - they refuse to even resurface our road which is causing damage to people's vehicles, because not enough people use it - despite the fact we have paid and not seen the use of more council tax than would be needed to do so... But that's kind of irrelevant.
Meh!

No, I'm just angry at the system, none of you guys!!
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« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2004, 09:53:03 pm »

I think that's an important point: if some people need a new house, burning down the one they live in and making them wait in the cold for you to build the new one is a pretty crappy way to go about meeting their need.

One problem I have with a single-source national health care system in the US is that I am afraid that such a system would spin down to the average. I think some 'competition' in terms of providing excellent and innovative services with market controls on cost is important.

I wish pharmaceuticals worked this way and I don't 100% understand why they don't except to assume that one basic problem is that they are publicly held and the need to answer to stockholders outweighs any potential for minimizing the social cost. That's one area where my pro-business views break down significantly.

I know that JLD also related a personal family anecodote about health care - the two of you also have stories to tell and I know families with no insurance. I think that there should in every state be a Federally supported insurance program that gives people the opportunity to have health coverage equal to the average coverage where they live. I would pay some additional taxes for this because the social benefit is massive (and because I work in public health). This must be independent of medicare and medicaid, though - this would be primarily to cover families for preventive services, chronic diseases and acute injuries. Things covered by non-profits or public health clinics should be excluded because those services are already paid for.  Emergency rooom care should always be available to everyone regardless of ability to pay.  I would fund this through HRSA and build more health centers, especially in rural areas and inner cities. The money should go to the states to administer the plans themselves or to pay for coverage from area insurance carriers.

This is a safety net that is meant to fill gaps - I still don't believe a national health care plan/system is viable in the US.
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« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2004, 10:28:21 pm »

I think it's probably (ok, fairly definitely!) true that switching the US over to an NHS style system wouldn't work. I guess I don't tend to consider that the population is well, pretty vast. I mean, the population of Britain equals those who voted for Bush, and we can just about get by with the NHS. As it is, things need doing to address that setup! Waiting times for surgery is a big issue at the moment.

But like you say, there certainly needs to be something there. Part of it is that I don't know much about Medicare and Medicaid, and what their roles are. I'll have to go and look into that some, as I hear a lot of talk of them, but going into depth would take time.

I sometimes feel guilty for spending so much time researching and thinking about US politics, since there is so much at home to be thought about, but, well, I'm not entirely sure why it is. Everything British just seems too quaint to me! Plus, while I doubt now I will ever move to the US, I would still like to leave the UK, as there are far too many things I am unhappy about here.
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