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@achewood The bus is crossing Klickitat St., home of Ramona Quimby. It's pretty swank these days. No sign of Nosmo King.

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Author Topic: Rosa Parks is dead  (Read 8542 times)

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andalucia

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2005, 04:05:57 pm »

Quote from: "article"
She knew that in the previous year, two other women had been arrested for the same offense, but neither was deemed right to handle the role that was sure to become one of the most controversial of the century.


I found this really interesting; I hadn't known that.  I also hadn't known that she and her husband were politically active already in antisegregation, & her husband being "an early defender of the Scottsboro boys".  The problem I'd always had with Parks being used as a symbol for the civil rights movement was that she always seemed to me as being portrayed as a passive and politically naive resister, an old woman, non-threatening.
They quote her in the article saying something to this effect:

Quote from: "Rosa Parks"
I thought back to the time when I used to sit up all night and didn't sleep, and my grandfather would have his gun right by the fireplace, or if he had his one-hoss wagon going anywhere, he always had his gun in the back of the wagon," she wrote. "People always say that I didn't give up my seat because I was tired, but that isn't true. I was not tired physically, or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day. I was not old, although some people have an image of me as being old then. I was forty-two. No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in.


I find that really creepy, actually.
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Bobby Isosceles

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2005, 05:36:57 pm »

Quote from: "arkabee"
Quote from: "andalucia"
Ugh.  I'm sorely tempted to lock this one as well.

Does anyone have anything worth saying?  We can still maybe salvage this.


edit- also, while i'm thinking, bobby i think you are hilarious 9 times out of 10, and apparently intelligent.  i truly want to pick your brain on this.


You had me at hello. I think the best comment on this matter was elucidated in the Prussian Blue thread, regarding the "marketplace of ideas." I believe in anyone -- even a bigot's -- right to say whatever he or she wants. I think the only way to successfuly quell an idea is reductio ad absurdum. Every other attempt to stifle a belief or meme will merely result in it getting a case of martyrdom. To destroy an idea you must give it its fifteen minutes of fame and watch it wither from overexposure. This is where I feel irony should be directed, not to cartoon-embossed t-shirts on yowling hipsters with black plastic framed glasses dancing to cheap synth music and drinking cheaper beer.

Humor is a weapon. When you say I'm funny nine times out of ten, that's because i'm trying to KILL YOU. A 90% hit rate ain't bad.
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AlohaDawg

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2005, 06:29:51 pm »

Quote from: "andalucia"
Quote from: "article"
She knew that in the previous year, two other women had been arrested for the same offense, but neither was deemed right to handle the role that was sure to become one of the most controversial of the century.


I found this really interesting; I hadn't known that.  I also hadn't known that she and her husband were politically active already in antisegregation, & her husband being "an early defender of the Scottsboro boys".  The problem I'd always had with Parks being used as a symbol for the civil rights movement was that she always seemed to me as being portrayed as a passive and politically naive resister, an old woman, non-threatening.
They quote her in the article saying something to this effect:

Quote from: "Rosa Parks"
I thought back to the time when I used to sit up all night and didn't sleep, and my grandfather would have his gun right by the fireplace, or if he had his one-hoss wagon going anywhere, he always had his gun in the back of the wagon," she wrote. "People always say that I didn't give up my seat because I was tired, but that isn't true. I was not tired physically, or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day. I was not old, although some people have an image of me as being old then. I was forty-two. No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in.


I find that really creepy, actually.


Creepy how?

She worked as an icon because it would be hard to attack her in the media and in discussion as some kind of rabble rouser. I imagine the two that got arrested before made a production out of it. What was needed, I suspect, and what the movement got, was a woman who was just going to take a simple human action that any reasonable person would take, and was simply going to be quiet and strong willed about it. No kicking and screaming, profanity, etc. Just a clear example the world could easily understand of just how absurd and unfair and irrational segregation was.

To build on a question from the other thread: I think this is why the current brand of protesting as brought to you by anti-globalization folks, PETA, ELF, and even the anti-Bush anti-war people is that the protests and dialogue don't have a simple focus for people to seize on. Also, too much profanity and too many celebrities. The problem with celebrities is that it's hard to take, say, Sean Penn seriously as a self-proclaimed expert on Foreign Policy. Or Barbara Streisand or even Bono, although I have a little more respect for him than the others.  So my advice to protesters of this era is: get a simple message you all can agree on and repeat it mercilessly, avoid recycling people like Joan Baez, etc. because it's a cliche, and for God's sake hire a consultant to come up with your chants. Every time I hear someone trying to lead a chant, it's like they lifted a page from a Chilton's manual and are reading it aloud. Horrible.

The most recent semi-successful protest I can think of was the woman camped out at Crawford on behalf of her son who was KIA in Iraq. That one was going OK (regardless of my personal opinion) and what I think killed it was when people supposedly smarter than her took over and muddled the message - when it was simply a mom looking to talk to the President, it had meaning, but when suddenly there was obviously big money and political interests behind it, it stopped being meaningful or having the ability to attract people who weren't already of that point of view.
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miles

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2005, 07:01:01 pm »

I don't get the creepy part, either.  I always thought it was pretty well known that Parks was an activist (and not just a tired old Grandma).  Or is that not what's creepy?

Oh, and, was Parks v Outkast ever really settled?
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JorgeFabregas

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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2005, 07:34:45 pm »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
She worked as an icon because it would be hard to attack here in the media and in discussion as some kind of rabble rouser. I imagine the two that got arrested before made a production out of it. What was needed, I sispect, and what the movement got, was a woman who was just going to take a simple human action that any reasonable person would take, and was simply going to be quiet and strong willed about it. No kicking and screaming, profanity, etc. Just a clear example the world could easily understand of just how absurd and unfair and irrational segregation was

I know that one of the women was pregnant out of wedlock. It had nothing to do with the way that woman acted on the bus or her attitude towards the situation...the leaders in the movement just didn't want to use her as a symbol of the boycott.
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arkabee

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2005, 08:20:52 pm »

i think the idea of my father having to drive around with a shotgun in order to protect himself and his family is beyond creepy, but i don't know what word means "beyond creepy".

i think rosa parks, in the end, ended up being a "hero" because all she was doing was doing what she knew was right.

nowadays, "heroes" try to do things they think will make them "heroes".

of course, being "Acceptable" by the "hero" makers sure helps a lot too.

what a sad day, but if anyone gets to go to a better place i sure hope she does.
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AlohaDawg

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2005, 09:08:27 pm »

Quote from: "JorgeFabregas"
I know that one of the women was pregnant out of wedlock. It had nothing to do with the way that woman acted on the bus or her attitude towards the situation...the leaders in the movement just didn't want to use her as a symbol of the boycott.


It's interesting, the verb 'use'. I wonder about that now - did the Civil Rights leaders of the time speak with Mrs Parks and her family and get her to agree to become an elevated hero? Or did it just happen naturally? Did they plan the boycott well in advance and just wait until the most appropriate for their purpose person decided not to stand at the back of the bus? That seems overly orchestrated to me but certainly could be how it went. That's interesting to think about.
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pmcd9

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2005, 01:03:35 am »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
It's interesting, the verb 'use'. I wonder about that now - did the Civil Rights leaders of the time speak with Mrs Parks and her family and get her to agree to become an elevated hero? Or did it just happen naturally? Did they plan the boycott well in advance and just wait until the most appropriate for their purpose person decided not to stand at the back of the bus? That seems overly orchestrated to me but certainly could be how it went. That's interesting to think about.

The myth that Rosa Parks was just a tired old lady that didn't want to stand anymore was what won the day for the civil rights movement.  Learning now that she was actually active in the movement and quite possibly orchestrated the whole event is, I believe, what Andalucia will tell you is creepy.  I'm glad though that her protest achieved it's goal.

~Paul
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AlohaDawg

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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2005, 01:19:23 am »

So the big question we're skating around is

Does it take away from the impact of Mrs. Parks' status as civil rights pioneer or from the whole civil rights movement itself (in your opinion) if she was a participant in those struggles all along and the event itself was orchestrated in order to kick off the Montgomery Bus Boycott?
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arkabee

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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2005, 01:36:23 am »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"

Does it take away from the impact of Mrs. Parks' status as civil rights pioneer or from the whole civil rights movement itself (in your opinion) if she was a participant in those struggles all along and the event itself was orchestrated in order to kick off the Montgomery Bus Boycott?


no,
the fact that an icon of the American Civil Rights Movement was an active participant in said movement does not detract any impact her icon status has on me.
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pmcd9

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2005, 01:39:30 am »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
Does it take away from the impact of Mrs. Parks' status as civil rights pioneer or from the whole civil rights movement itself (in your opinion) if she was a participant in those struggles all along and the event itself was orchestrated in order to kick off the Montgomery Bus Boycott?

I don't know, but I just killed a post in the other thread because I couldn't think of a good way to say that those two misguided children dancing on Rosa Parks grave isn't funny because it's a stunningly acurate metaphor for the state of race relations in America at the moment.  The civil rights movement is dead and racism is on the rise among young white people.

~Paul
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andalucia

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2005, 01:55:42 am »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
So the big question we're skating around is

Does it take away from the impact of Mrs. Parks' status as civil rights pioneer or from the whole civil rights movement itself (in your opinion) if she was a participant in those struggles all along and the event itself was orchestrated in order to kick off the Montgomery Bus Boycott?


Well, that's exactly the opposite of what I meant.  (Thanks Paul for straightening that up, I'd only recently woken up when I wrote that comment).  I find her a lot more compelling as a hero knowing that she was a politically aware actor, who did what she did as a conscious act of protest.

What this reminds me of is a passage in a book by Angela Davis, who I respect quite a lot-- her autobiography is well worth checking out-- on black women in blues music, where she takes on the myth that Billie Holiday had no idea what "Strange Fruit" was about (ie, lynching) and just sang the words as they were given to her.  Which, not surprisingly, is total bullshit.  It's the fairly pervasive myth that either of these intelligent and aware women were being used as tools in the civil rights movement without their real knowledge or of their own volition, that strikes me as creepy.

I mean, since most of you guys are American, and probably have a better grasp of American history than I do, and, as miles and others have said, knew that she was already an activist.  In that case, you may safely ignore this comment.
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miles

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2005, 02:51:32 am »

Quote from: "arkabee"
Quote from: "AlohaDawg"

Does it take away from the impact of Mrs. Parks' status as civil rights pioneer or from the whole civil rights movement itself (in your opinion) if she was a participant in those struggles all along and the event itself was orchestrated in order to kick off the Montgomery Bus Boycott?


no,
the fact that an icon of the American Civil Rights Movement was an active participant in said movement does not detract any impact her icon status has on me.


Totally.  If anything I have more respect for her.  Is it somehow wrong that she orchestrated the event?  It reminds me of the arrest that led to the Lawrence v Texas decision.  People on the right were always quick to point out that it seemed staged, and that this somehow mitigated the impact of the decision.  Even if those guys were totally faking it, and weren't even gay, let alone had the arrest staged, I don't see how it would have been different.
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miles

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2005, 03:03:50 am »

Quote from: "pmcd9"
The civil rights movement is dead and racism is on the rise among young white people.


Really?  I'd disagree (without any evidence in the way of statistics and shit) on both points.  I could be totally wrong, and would appreciate being pointed in the direction of any related studies or reports.  Certainly it's not the same as it was, but great progress is still being made (with a number of setbacks, certainly) in areas that have been overlooked in the past--such as with gay rights.  I know you mentioned racism specifically, but, you know.

Edit:  Oh, and andalucia:  I too thought that Rosa Parks was just a tired woman and not really connected with the civil rights movement.  It's just that it seems like the myth was dispelled rather widely a couple years ago.  Like a book was published or something.  I remember my friend commenting that he was a little disappointed, which seemed weird to me.
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pmcd9

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Rosa Parks is dead
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2005, 01:55:09 am »

Quote from: "miles"
Quote from: "pmcd9"
The civil rights movement is dead and racism is on the rise among young white people.


Really?  I'd disagree (without any evidence in the way of statistics and shit) on both points.  I could be totally wrong, and would appreciate being pointed in the direction of any related studies or reports.  Certainly it's not the same as it was, but great progress is still being made (with a number of setbacks, certainly) in areas that have been overlooked in the past--such as with gay rights.  I know you mentioned racism specifically, but, you know.

I can't quantify it, but I can feel it.

~Paul
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