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Author Topic: Today I took on the Teamsters  (Read 17555 times)

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theinevitable

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2007, 05:00:19 am »

I dunno man, if he is willing to go in and tell his boss he doesn't want any of the advantages of being unionized, and wants to have his pay lowered, I think he should go for it. That's the American Dream.

...or, wait...
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Social pressures exist
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Doc

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2007, 05:20:38 am »

It's your right to not join the union.
It's your boss's right to not give you shifts.
If neither of you are willing to change your position then I don't think the reasoning behind these positions matters.
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2007, 06:02:37 am »

Good Lord, man.

Did free-health-care murder your parents in front of you, in an alleyway behind a screening of Zorro when you were eight?

These people are the thin line of protection between you and a bunch of greedy rich shits who would answer to no authority other than their shareholders' desires for two yachts in each of their five-garages. The one on the South Fork, the one on Cape Cod, the one in The Keys and so on.

Who would do anything, ANYTHING, to pay you as little as possible that they might have the budget for a mint julep in a gold goblet at the next Derby instead of the crystal stemware that they've had to suffer with since the people unionized.

Yes, the unions've been involved with unsavoury elements. They kind of had to be. It was the only way to get any edge against corporations who would bribe the local police to beat in their skulls for asking for a living wage and turn the firehoses on their own workers for demanding a piss-break.

And... yes... they've circled the wagons so that people so desperate for money or... much less frequently... trying to prove some weird only-in-textbooks ideological point can't erode that hard-won progress, sometimes literally blood-won progress.

There are narratives at play here much longer than my young life or your slightly-even-younger life, man.

Rich people do not want people like me or you joining them in their tax-bracket, friend, seriously. Seriously. They want all that shit and twice over, just for themselves and their descendants. They want us to be good fuck*ng morlocks and not bother the elloi, all right?

That is the plan. That is the deal. The deal is the hope of the new feudalism.

And the new feudalism concentrates power by rigging the system to do so and certainly not bring new people up into their little fuck*ng party, crashing their Mazzaratis and raping the help without consequence.

You and I are both on the other side of the door of that as far as they are concerned, man. Stockholm Syndrome aside.

One of the few things standing between us and the new feudalism are the unions, at least the ones that still have fuck*ng balls.

C'mon. The golden people don't wanna give nothing over to either of us, my friend.

And moreover, they'll cheat like hell so that we can't earn it, either.
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AugustWest

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2007, 06:15:56 am »

Hokay, so I need to give some more details. When I joined I was aware the teamster socialists owned the shop. Also, I was aware of the law. As an employee I am not able to negotiate my own wage, because of the Teamsters. I am absolutely sure I would be able to get work every week if I was able to negotiate a reasonable wage with my employer and not the ridiculous wage negotiated by The Teamsters.
Yes I agree with the posts that I am able to find another job. That is in fact the argument used by Mr.Duffy, the union president. The point is that I have a deep emotional disagreement with how unions have treated me. I come from a family of welsh coal miners and electricians. I know that unions were important to my ancestors, however, in my specific condition, I challenge any of you to argue that I am better off because of The Teamsters, an organization known to have involvement with organized crime and has admitted to me personally they are extorting me.

I think that to prove your commitment to your principles, you should move to Wales and mine coal for starvation wages.

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Lister

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2007, 06:39:23 am »

Speaking as someone in a non-union industry...

...who's spent more hours at work than away from work for the past three weeks with no days off...

...who has no health care plan because it's not offered...

...who has been technically the employee of a temp agency for as long as I've been with this company...

...who gets no paid leave, at all, ever...

...who gets paid slightly more than a shift lead at an In'n'Out Burger...

...who gets to spend part of my day training people in India who are taking the places of other Americans who used to have jobs like mine...

...who is only paid overtime because it is the law, and whose hours were limited to 12 a day only because it would cost too much to keep me more...

...who, with all of this overtime, is still making less than I did my first year as an IT tech...

...who could be terminated immediately with no severance and escorted from the building for posting the wrong thing on a message board...

May I be extorted, please?

Pretty, pretty please?
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Doc

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2007, 06:40:03 am »

On a tangent, what is it with you Americans always referencing where your ancestors came from? You damn yanks are always 'I'm Dutch-Irish' or whatever. Ain't more than a few thousand people left in my country who have ancestors stretching back maybe six generations and the majority are three or four at best but most folk around here come from where they were born, not where their great-grandpappy got deported from.
Sorry that came out a lot more derrogatory than I intended but it's just a weird quirk that a nation famed for it's sense of independance is full of people so mindful of their ties to foreign lands.

Edit: Because 'yankee' has a different meaning there than it does here.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 06:47:50 am by Doc »
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jaydub

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2007, 06:44:59 am »

Maybe we wouldn't be if it weren't for the media constantly reminding us that the only native Americans are Native Americans.  There's a Heinlein quote that's on topic  - let me peruse the Intarweb...

Found it:
"This sad little lizard told me he was a brontosaurus on his mother's side. I did not laugh, people who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them. Humoring them costs nothing and adds to happiness in a world in which happiness is always in short supply."

This often comes up for me when people mention the resemblance of my surname to that of a well known Scottish patriot.  In fact, my most recent non-American ancestors came from Ireland (presumably from some offshoot of the family moving between the Isles long ago).  Not that we're any more Irish in character than Scottish.  I have friends though that will break their heritage down into percentages - however scattered.  Its kind of funny - what would someone 12.5% Italian and 25% German and 3% Polish etc etc have in common with anyone hailing from those countries.  Would you look at someone like that and nod knowingly, "Aha, that explains the love of knockwurst I was wondering about."
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 06:57:45 am by jaydub »
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Doc

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2007, 07:08:04 am »

Dude! I agree with you that many over-bearing unions are an anachronism that often cause more harm than good in today's society but you're earning zero dollars an hour because of yourself and the choices you have made.
Personal responsibility man.
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Doc

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2007, 07:13:02 am »

It would only be extortion if you were having something that is yours by right taken away. Surely you of all people are not going to argue with me that you have a right to a job at this brewery?
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2007, 07:15:42 am »

Your... and only your... most short-term of goals? Yes, somewhat cramped. Duly noted.

The point is that what they're doing is fundamentally correct and you're being stubbornly bratty about it. Individual short-term self-interest is not the name of the game we are talking about here.

Pay your union dues, deal with the fact that helping everyone... including yourself... in the long-term is worth giving up a small amount of money in the short-term.

Or, alternately, get a different job in a non-union shop where you'll get to have all kinds of hours where you're being exploited.

To not pick one of those two Choose Your Own Adventure options and move on is to be ridiculously Pat-like and bratty. It ain't all about just you, my friend, no matter what economics books for by and of the fabulously-well-to-do people have to say on the matter.

Man oh man, am I with Lister. Bring some of that sweet sweet extortion my way.
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2007, 07:24:39 am »

Tax dollars are extortion?

Man. Social contract, man.

Y'all ain't an island. You're part of a society, you contribute to the upkeep.

You're part of a community of workers, you contribute to that community's upkeep. Be kind, rewind.

Till you can get your own planet, live with it.
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theinevitable

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2007, 07:59:04 am »

you implicitly accept the social contract and that you have to pay taxes by utilizing public facilities and utilities like roads and bridges, relying on the police or firemen, etc.

I am imagining the climactic moment in your court case when you are somehow on the verge of winning, and then you bring up that taxes are extortion too.
it reminds me of in Futurama, when the lawyer would set himself up to win, and then mention that this case also set a precedent for flag burning or some such.
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Social pressures exist
And if you think about them all of the time
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You're gonna do it all for the grind

lprkn

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2007, 08:44:14 am »

Did free-health-care murder your parents in front of you, in an alleyway behind a screening of Zorro when you were eight?

I am staying away from this whole masturbation-fest, but goddamn that was humorous.
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KeithHernandez

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2007, 11:59:36 am »

This reminds me of a Bill Hicks joke.  If you don't want to pay your taxes A-CAP, let Ayn Rand put out your fires. (paraphrased).
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side_show

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Re: Today I took on the Teamsters
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2007, 04:09:00 pm »

A-CAP, you've yet to tell us whether you informed your employer that you were unwilling to participate in the union or not.  You say you were aware that your employer was a union house before you started working there and that you were also aware of the law (and, I think, implicit to this is that you planned to fight the issue if it came to a head).  So did you make your employer aware of this?  Did you refuse to sign any work-related paper work agreeing to abide by their policy?  Or did you allow them to hire you, train you and pay you unaware of the fact you would likely become useless to them when the shit hit the fan?  I like your Tony Soprano analogy, and if I were to go to that pork shop he used as a front, and applied for a job there, knowing full well that the pork shop was a front for Tony Soprano 1) it would be pretty silly to put myself into this situation when there are pork shops around that I know aren't run by Tony Soprano, and 2) it would be a blatant failure to disclose pertinant information to take a job at said porkshop with out telling the guy hiring me that I was about to start a war.  If you believe unionization is so morally reprehensible, and you took a job at a place that's entrenched with the union, then why did you get in bed with them in the first place?  It's like blaming the hooker that gave you syphilis.  Yeah she's a dirty whore, but you knew when you fucked her that it might come back to haunt you.

I have mixed feelings about unions.  I certainly know folks who have had positive experiences with union membership - people who had their back covered when they got injured on the job and stuff like that.  In the arts, the actors union is, in my opinion, a bad thing.  I've yet to see any value to it except for the most successful actors - and this is a tiny, tiny handful of people.  There's barely enough work to go around to begin with, and the union designates that a certain portion of roles in professional productions must be unionized - then we've got artists paying dues when they could literally go years between gigs.  I lost a well-paying role last year because I was unwilling to join.  I mean, I've got a friend who's around 300 pounds and has one eye who was force to join the union - do you think she gets cast much?  Recently a good friend joined the union, and was suddenly unable to do most of his non-stage voice-over work because the unions set impossibly high rates for this kind of work... He had asked the union rep who signed him up if he's still be able to do this work, and she said yes.  She didn't bother to tell him about the impossibly high wages and that non of the stations or companies that hired him in the past could afford to hire him as a union actor.  So he eventually had to leave the union because the voice over stuff was his bread a butter (and also he didn't particularly like having someone else tell him what a "reasonable" wage was - he was doing just fine financially before they stepped in and made it impossible for him to work).  Now he's black listed - he is not allowed to act on stage ever again unless he rejoins the union and repays any accumulated dues and fees for the time he's out of the union.  There's lot of other shit that goes on that is total garbage.  I mean, I could go on and on.

A-CAP, I don't know how you originally got in cahoots with a union.  From all that I've heard plenty of people get trapped before they're well informed about what it means to work in union house.  Thankfully I did a lot of research the first time the union tried to grab me, otherwise I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my career would be over.  So I'm really sorry if you got in this mess before you knew better - the union that ensnares my fellow artists is very, very eager to sign people up who are ill-informed about what they're getting into, so if you were in the same boat, I can really sympathize.  It seems to me though, that when it comes to your current job, you did know better?  To paraphrase Maya Angelou, "When you know better, you do better."  If you don't fuck whores, you wont get that rash, you know? 

Your spirit of protest is great, but it also kind of belies your age.  I mean, pick your battles a little more carefully.  If you felt this way, if you were taking this job on for the fight, why didn't you interview, get the job offer, tell them you were unwilling to join the union, have them take back their job offer, then sue the ##### off them?    I mean, there's a straitforward case for you.  (I'm sorry, I'm again assuming you didn't inform your employer, but I'm guessing you didn't - I think you would have mentioned it by now.)  Instead, it's really looking to me like you either lied to your employer or omitted important information at the time you were hired.  It's very optimistic of you to want to take on this fight, but seriously guy - you put yourself in a bad place.  I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's legal, but you tell us several times that you fully anticipated that it would come to this, and you still threw yourself into it.  You could have easily oppose the union at a much earlier stage here, but now you're looking like you treaded into murky waters.  It looks like you were willing to work in a union house, no objections, until they wanted your money.  And that doesn't sound like ethics, that sounds like you wanting to hold on to your money.  I'm not saying it isn't the otherway around - you've argued the otherside of it pretty clearly - but from the outside, it looks like you came up with a moral issue after the fact.  I mean, if you'd raise your concerns at the moment you were hired, you'd have a nice case for yourself, and maybe some sexy little anti-union microbrewery would have hired you right off the hop because they supported you and they wanted your madd skilz.  You're making yourself look like a whiny, money grubbing turd even though you have a fairly reasonable argument, based on when and why you were willing to raise a stink.  No matter what you do about your current work situation, next time, take the lesson, raise your voice before they come for your wallet, or you make yourself look like a douche no matter how right you are.  Don't work for an employer you don't morally agree with.  Make sure you tell them they are losing out on a high value employee due to their support of things you don't agree with.  I've done this over and over again, and a couple times I've even had people agree and make changes.  Have some dignity, take pride in what you believe, be upfront about it.  That's how you earn respect.
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