The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Arts & Entertainment => Topic started by: theinevitable on December 19, 2005, 04:16:07 am
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I really enjoy more "artsy" comics. For instance: Jimmy Corrigan, "Hey, Wait!", and Maus (and Maus II). I am not really sure how to find more comics along a similar vein (other than just going to the local comicbook-store, which is a little too far away to be convenient). Do any of you have any suggestions? Basically I never really got into the more "classic" comics, so I'm trying to start appreciating comics by starting on the more socially acceptable types. I mean, I'm not above trying anything, but as someone who didn't read comics (other than calvin and hobbes, foxtrot, and other newspaper type comics) growing up, its hard for me to start out with the more "super-hero"-ey stuff.
Basically: if you'd never read comic books, what would you start on? I almost picked up this spiderman book the other day... it was, I think, the first few issues of spider man in book form. It seemed pretty cool, but, I don't know. I'd have to get into it, I suppose.
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The answer as always really comes down to "what do you want to be reading?" I am embarrassingly underinformed about Artsy comics, but in terms of more 'comic-booky' comics..
Sandman has long been popular with people who aren't interested in superheroes. Alan Moore's run on Saga Of The Swamp Thing has a little more involvement from superheroic comics characters, but many of them were little-used for years before Moore revived/restored them for his own use, and the cosmological framework Moore laid out is still the main basis of DC's occult stuff. Both of these titles are occult horror/dark fantasy set loosely within the framework of an existing superheroic universe.
DC has a "Greatest Stories Ever Told" line (Greatest Flash Stories Ever Told, Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told, etc.) which may be of interest starting into superheroes. They tend to give a good overview of the focal character even if some of the stories selected are not in fact the greatest ever told. Marvel takes a different approach with its "Essentials" line, which is basically big clumps of comics about a particular character starting from his beginning and plowing straight forward, reprinted in black and white so you get a huge wad for cheap.
Maybe that'll help or maybe not.
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I'm not a comic book person so I tend to go for the self contained stuff or trade paperbacks, I started out reading Sandman because I liked Gaiman's novels and that in turn led me to Alan Moore (V for Vendetta is quite cool). If you're like me and like to get the whole story in one go trades are probably best, the few Hellblazers I have read seem to be a good example of a contained story that doesn't require a lot of back knowledge.
While we are on the subject has anyone read for Queen and Country? I've seen it mentioned and it sounds like reasonably cool comic that I might want to check out. Any thoughtss?
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wow, I just did something stupid to the long response I had typed here by hitting one of the wierd formatting buttons.
basically, suggest comic(book)s for me. I am a person who has not read many comics. I did not mean to limit you to "art" type comics... I mostly meant that I had enjoyed a few in the past.
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Dear Mr.theinevitable - Oh, I know ever so much about this particular area of interst, due to my many years working in a comic book shop.
1) You can't be a pretentious comic autour without having read "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud. It's a comic book that is a textbook about comic books. It's brilliant. Read it. Also, if you liked Maus, I'm pretty sure that McCloud references it in the book. Also, if you liked Maus, the creator Art Spiegelman's made lots of other books that are worth checking out. I remember one biographical book he did about 5 years ago that I really liked.
When it comes to actual comic books, I most deeply appreciate "world building" - where there are unique parameters of what can, or can not happen in the world of the comic. These are my two favorites for that:
2) If you like Achewood, you will probably like Sock Monkey by Tony Millionaire. His comic books are about an alive stuffed Sock Monkey, a stuffed toy Crow, a family of Dolls and their interactions with small creatures within a Victorian-style Mansion. The children who own these toys are sometimes involved. Check out Millionaire's site: www.maakies.com (http://www.maakies.com). This is a front for his regularly posted mini-strips, the Maakies, which are also available in book form, but started out at intricate mini's at the bottom of the full-length Sock Monkey strips. The site gives you info on all the full length Sock Monkey books and links to where you can buy them.
3) James Kochalka: is the god of underground comics. He makes a daily diary strip about his life: www.americanelf.com (http://www.americanelf.com) which you can read online, but really the diary strips have there deepest impact when read in collection, and the site links to places to purchase. Don't let the simplicity of reading a one shot of his diary fool you, when you read the strips together in book form you'll see the subtle way he celebrates the beauty, mystery and intricacy of day to day life.
Other than that, if you like long-form books, I really liked:
4) Chester Brown's Louis Riel - it's near and dear to me because it's about my ancestral history, but I do recommend it, and though it came out in smaller individual books I'd recommend the full-length hard cover, as the story is pretty easy to tear through.
Or if you prefer one off thingies, I love:
5) Evan Dorkin - you can read any of his stuff and it is just wonderful. Milk and Cheese? Check. Dork? Check. There's a great collection of Dork that is really worth picking up. If you like sarcastic literary references and Devil hand puppets, this is for you. giraffeer Price Theatre - where the giraffeer Price weebles enact well know books like Generation X and Of Mice and Men, etc. is hilarious.
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If you're into the artier stuff, take a look at 100 Bullets. It's about an untracable gun/bullets that find their way to various people.
I've been enjoying it.
But to start, try Powers. It's just so good.
This was all comic books, as I don't read many online ones but do have a fair stack of unread comics still...
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Isn't Powers the one with a whole issue of nothing but monkeys fuck*ng?
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Just to be obvious: if you really want to bridge the gap between "art" comics and comic books, Alan Moore's Watchmen is probably a must. It was the comic that pretty much made the deconstructionist-superheroes trend, and it's unquestionably the best such product to date. In a lot of ways it shows its age (there's a lot of that mid-to-late-'80s end-of-the-cold-war vibe about its plot), and it might not be the best entrance point if you really know nothing about superhero comics, but if you have any background it's superb.
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Isn't Powers the one with a whole issue of nothing but monkeys fuck*ng?
Can't say I've gotten to that one, certainly...
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Did someone say pretention? And comics?
First off, yes, to everything everyone has already said (except...monkeys fuck*ng?)- yes, yes and double yes. You might also want to check out Jeffrey Brown (although I would suggest only getting one of his "girlfriend" books- he's done three different, small books that consist of comics that show different stages in three different relationships. They're each good, but reading more than one kind of makes you want to kick his ass). Seth (just Seth) is an amazing artist and a great storyteller, to boot- I saw him and Adrian Tomine read recently (Tomine's pretty good, but some of his stuff makes me want to kick his ass, just like Brown). Jason Little does Beekeeper Cartoon Amusements (http://www.beecomix.com/); he hasn't updated that comic in a long time, but "Shutterbug Follies" is out and good. Platinum Grit (http://www.platinumgrit.com/) is online, free and fun, although it's much more "classic" comic book than web-comic. Oh, and I would suggest getting the "Comic" McSweeney's- lotsa good stuff in there, and you can go from there on a lot of those people.
In terms of more "mainstream" comics- I've been reading a lot of "Fables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fables_%28comics%29)" lately, a Great Lakes Avengers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Avengers) trade just came out, and here comes just a big ol' list of cool things I like- "Y: The Last Man," "Desolation Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desolation_Jones)," "The Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authority_%28comics%29)," "Ex Machina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_Machina_%28comic_book%29)," "Invincible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_%28comic%29)," 'Top 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_10), "B.P.R.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.P.R.D.)"...I've just been trying to mention some cool stuff that you can get in trades. In the normal superhero universe, there's been some interesting stuff happening in Daredevil as of late...The Pulse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pulse_%28comics%29) is good, basically anything by Brian Michael Bendis- the New Avengers is tasty...
Yeah, I'm out for now. Also, a total dork.
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hm, so.
I went on a "cool part of town" shopping trip today. I bought a book called "What is a Jew? Understanding Judaism", and "Superman: Red Son".
We tried to get some Kochalka comics... and the guy asked us if we were over 18. And we thought he was joking.
I can get in to R rated movies. I can buy M rated games.
But I can't buy a comic book that has nudity in it.
He was really apologetic about it, though...
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via amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785116567/103-3072090-0188611?v=glance&n=283155)
This is the infamous "Monkey Butt Sex" storyline, opening with an entire chapter of proto-human sex and violence. If Monkey Butt Sex is the type of thing that might bother you, you may want to spend your money elsewhere.
This opening is either an homage to Kubrick and Clarke's 2001, a parody of 2001 or just plain derivative.
The Monkey Butt Sex does serve the story, which tracks the first superhumans to the present, so it's not actually gratuitous, although it is probably more graphic than needed. But the story is itself somewhat lacking -- slow paced, poor dialog, and repetitive. Characterization is flat. It is not one of the high points of the series.
The art is great, as you would expect from Oeming -- stylized, with lots of hard black lines. Monkey Butt Sex never looked so good.
I knew I wasn't making it up! I was just flipping through my friend's comics one day and BAM! 30 pages of monkey sex.
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A bunch of pretty good recommendations on which I am about to comment
Those are all good comics, but a few of them I wouldn't necessarily recommend to somebody just starting on comics. The Pulse and Great Lakes Avengers are both pretty reliant as far as I've seen on a certain level of working knowledge about Marvel. As for Top Ten.. I am actually too far inside my comics immersion to be able to recognize whether or not it would work as a great superhero police-procedural for somebody who isn't already immersed in the superhero zeitgeist. I suspect so, but I am inside the giraffebowl and cannot see its shape.
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oh my -god- Red Son was awesome.
so much
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"Y: The Last Man,"
Also rules, though I've only managed to track down the first TPB so far.
I also have to say, despite the fact I never got into Babylon 5 (seemed a mite silly), Rising Stars is a fantastic comic (again from the first TPB which I can get).
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We tried to get some Kochalka comics... and the guy asked us if we were over 18. And we thought he was joking.
I can get in to R rated movies. I can buy M rated games.
But I can't buy a comic book that has nudity in it.
He was really apologetic about it, though...
That is so weird. Kochalka comics occasionally have some nudity, but only in the innocent, sort of Garden of Eden-style nudity that would offend no one. Apart from Fancy Froglin, which is about a frog who wears tiny ##### to conceal his erections, but still his erections are really innocent, not like, sex erections... The Fancy Froglin book does have a quote from a review in Playboy, so I suppose this might shade things in the wrong direction... I never even questioned selling Kochalka books to younger readers. That's weird.
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hmmm.
It was called "superfuckers".
I don't know. He seemed really upset about it, but he said he'd gotten in trouble before for selling certain comics to kids under 18.
wierd wierd wierd.
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I don't know. He seemed really upset about it, but he said he'd gotten in trouble before for selling certain comics to kids under 18.
Man, that's why Jesus invented the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund (http://www.cbldf.org/).
Support it by buying a Fancy Froglin t-shirt about genitals (http://cbldf.safeshopper.com/1/78.htm?82), why not!
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I have no self-discipline.
Now I bought "David Boring", even though I dont' have christmas presents for like half of my immediate family.
I didn't even get something someone suggested...
damn.
but, its good, I think. so far.
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hmmm.
It was called "superfuckers".
I don't know. He seemed really upset about it, but he said he'd gotten in trouble before for selling certain comics to kids under 18.
wierd wierd wierd.
Oh, yeah, I haven't read Superfuckers yet, but apparently it's sort of a mock-teen superhero comic, so I am puzzled by the nudity content. Hmm.
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the panel I glanced at was something like:
*a leaf falling from a tree* "I am superfuck*ng-leaf! Fuck yeah!"
We laughed pretty hard at this.
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I can't remember exactly how I got into it, or why, or when, but I am now totally into Batman comics. It started with The Dark Knight Returns. Then I read Year One. I just recently picked up The Long Halloween. And I loved all three. Where should I go next? Oh, and sorry. I know Batman isn't exactly pretentious, but, you know.
Recently I went to a comic book store with a friend. Then I realized that I was in a comic book store. With a friend. And it was my idea to go. I asked her: "When did I become a dork?"
Also, an opinion or two about the Sandman series? Loved American Gods to death, and really liked Neverwhere. Will I like the Sandman comics?
I downloaded the first Fables, but I haven't yet had time to look through it. Looks interesting though.
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I can't remember exactly how I got into it, or why, or when, but I am now totally into Batman comics. It started with The Dark Knight Returns. Then I read Year One. I just recently picked up The Long Halloween. And I loved all three. Where should I go next? Oh, and sorry. I know Batman isn't exactly pretentious, but, you know.
I recently "acquired" by "completely legal means" a "bundle" called The 25 Greatest Batman Graphic Novels Ever. While I don't entirely agree with that assessment in all cases, I've been enjoying reading/rereading them. Here's the list:
Year One
The Dark Knight Returns
The Killing Joke
Arkham Asylum (by Grant Morrison, not to be confused with Arkham Asylum: Living Hell)
The Long Halloween
The Cult
Son Of The Demon
Dark Victory
Batman vs. Dracula: Red Rain
Hush
Blind Justice
Mad Love
Gotham by Gaslight
Black And White Vol. 1
Death In The Family
Gothic
Strange Apparitions
A Lonely Place Of Dying
Tales Of The Demon
JLA: Tower Of Babel (I haven't read this one yet, but I understand it is instrumental in defining a lot of how his relationship to the rest of the JLA is interpreted; probably skippable if you don't care about the rest of the DCU)
Thrillkiller
The Man Who Laughs
Nine Lives
Knightfall vol.1: Broken Bat (I didn't like Knightfall much, myself)
Venom
Also, an opinion or two about the Sandman series? Loved American Gods to death, and really liked Neverwhere. Will I like the Sandman comics?
Probably.
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Did I make up Batman/Grendel and Grendel/Batman in my head? Because I swear I remember reading them like 20+ years ago.
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yeah. I ended up in the comic book store with my girlfriend. and the guy started trying to sell her comics. and she was like "no, I don't want any. I mean... I'm just here with him."
and I felt awkward. because I realized I was going to a comic book store, and I realized my girlfriend was with me, but I didn't make the connection that I was making my girlfriend go into a comicbook store with me
but, yes. pretentiousness is not at all a requirement. I was just assuming that "arty" comics would be easier to get in to than superhero comics, which some horrible part of me thinks "oh man, those are for kids". Now, however, I have quickly realized that they are quite good. I just wish that I hadn't bought myself 30-40$ worth of (trade paperbacks? is that what they're called?) when I hadn't bought my parents christmas presents yet... it was a bad move.
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I recently "acquired" by "completely legal means" a "bundle" called The 25 Greatest Batman Graphic Novels Ever. While I don't entirely agree with that assessment in all cases, I've been enjoying reading/rereading them. Here's the list:
Umm, care to elaborate?
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and I realized my girlfriend was with me, but I didn't make the connection that I was making my girlfriend go into a comicbook store with me
DUDE! Don't you worry.
She'll drag you to ten thousand times more bead stores than you'll ever see.
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Umm, care to elaborate?
By "acquired" I mean "downloaded". By "completely legal means" I mean "BitTorrent". By "bundle" I.. well, actually, I mean bundle.
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Dude, MiniNova is my favourite place on earth. Thanks for the mention. Gotta love Batman comics on my PC.
Also, for the record, I owned about half of these in actual comic book form, including an autographed hardcover version of the painted Arkham Asylum graphic novel (although I think it only came out in hardcover at the time). I put all of my comics on consignment back the last time I moved, and haven't seen a dime from them, but whatever. I can't live in the past, man.
I think I still have the Sandman trade paperbacks and some essentials like Dark Knight Returns and stuff in the basement somewhere, but I haven't really read any comics but Achewood in a while.
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Miles: Everyone loves sandman, it is this simple. Obviously starting at the beginning is best (though I myself am yet to read the first trade though I've read the rest) but if you can't find it I'd try season of the mists which draws from established mythology enough that knowledge of the specific sandman mythology is not essential, or possibly World's End which is just some short stories that occur in the same universe, they won't have as much significance for you as if you read them again after the series but they worked pretty well for me.
Actually I just realised world's end has spoilery stuff from the end of the series in there, it's not exactly explicit but obvious enough that you may want to avoid. I almost forgot to mention it because World's End was one of the first sandman trades I read and it dulled my enjoyment not a whit, but your milage may vary on that count so it's something to keep in mind.
Oh I can't believe it took me this long to remember: Bone, go read Bone folks.
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Miles: Everyone loves sandman, it is this simple. Obviously starting at the beginning is best (though I myself am yet to read the first trade though I've read the rest) but if you can't find it I'd try season of the mists which draws from established mythology enough that knowledge of the specific sandman mythology is not essential, or possibly World's End which is just some short stories that occur in the same universe, they won't have as much significance for you as if you read them again after the series but they worked pretty well for me.
Actually I just realised world's end has spoilery stuff from the end of the series in there, it's not exactly explicit but obvious enough that you may want to avoid. I almost forgot to mention it because World's End was one of the first sandman trades I read and it dulled my enjoyment not a whit, but your milage may vary on that count so it's something to keep in mind.
My friend got me the third volume of Sandman for Christmas (she said the first wasn't there) but I plan to start with the first volume. I'm excited to get started once I acquire the first one.
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I really liked the second volume, The Doll House (or maybe A Doll's House, or some variation). It's about some kind of cereal convention.
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Brief Lives and Kindly Ones are by far my favorites.
Sandman is actually responsible for getting me into comics back when I was a self-righteous fuck... now I'm just sort of self-righteous, so yay for that.
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I get an hour lunch-break at my B&N, which means that I immediatly take my name-tag off, go down to the cafe, order some soup (if you are at a Barnes & Nobles cafe and they have potato leek soup, order it immediatly, because it is like god cum) and a Jones Juice and grab two trade paperback comic collections. I have read all of the Fables books, all of the Marvel Knights Daredevil books, a whole buncha Batman...it is amazing.
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(if you are at a Barnes & Nobles cafe and they have potato leek soup, order it immediatly, because it is like god cum)
This is the most fascinating simile I've seen used for food in some time.
My first question: monotheistic God, or one god in a polytheistic pantheon? And which would make for better soup?
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So... Batman/Grendel? I made it up, then?
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This is the most fascinating simile I've seen used for food in some time.
My first question: monotheistic God, or one god in a polytheistic pantheon? And which would make for better soup?
A polytheistic god would make the best soup. Definitly. How could Kali not make a good soup, I mean, look at her. (http://www.sanatansociety.com/indian_art_galleries/pieter_weltevrede/pw_gh_kali_ferocious_01.htm)
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A polytheistic god would make the best soup. Definitly. How could Kali not make a good soup, I mean, look at her. (http://www.sanatansociety.com/indian_art_galleries/pieter_weltevrede/pw_gh_kali_ferocious_01.htm)
Bones are pretty much a must for a good stock.
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As god soups go, I'd say a good, hearty elephant soup is the way forward here (just kidding, Ganesha ol' buddy...). And in the comics department I'd recommend "Menz Insana" (Vertigo) from Christopher Fowler, pencils by John Bolton. It's bizarre and very sad, being about the alienated mental landscape of the clinically insane. It has some of the creepiest characters I can remember.
I just remembered "7 Miles a Second" by James Romberger based on material provided by the protagonist himself (they were close friends). It's from a Vertigo sub-label called "Vertigo Vérité" and tells the bio of David Wojnarowicz, from an adolescence of street hustling to some mild popularity as painter with street cred on the underground scene of New York and then to his death from AIDS. So, it's about a gay painter from NY who died from AIDS. You can't get more horribly pretentious than this. The comic is extremely good, though.
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Speaking of Vertigo, I also pretty much enjoyed Animal Man. It is the best example of taking a lame ass character and making him interesting that I had seen even in my historical comic delvings... whatever the hell that means.
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Time for a minor total-comics-dork divergence here.
As much as I love Vertigo's reinventions of superheroes, there is one thing about them I can do without: they make comics fans assume that the original sucked without bothering to check. It is just sort of assumed that they must have been "four-color trash", whatever that happens to mean to the individual in question, before the British geniuses got their hands on them.
Animal Man is probably not the best choice for me to leap to the defense of, since he was always pretty goofy. That said, goofy doesn't mean necessarily bad. His early adventures were a lot of fun to read, and if they hadn't been, Morrison would probably have never bothered with him; he specifically asked to reinvent his favorite old character who had fallen into Comics Limbo. To me, it's more irritating in the cases of Swamp Thing and Doom Patrol; Moore and Morrison's respective runs on those were genius comics, but the original runs were also excellent comics that a lot of comics fans automatically discard as Less Than Trash for not being the Vertigo reinventions.
Vertigo eventually made a formula out of miniseries that 'reinvented' minor Silver Age characters by adding experimental layouts and psychological dysfunction. Some of these series were quite good (Human Target) and some were quite bad (Dr. 13), but the effect they mostly shared was to bring the obscure characters into fan consciousness as "wacky old crappy old characters who were redeemed by Vertigo" no matter what the original character's quality might have been.
(Fanboy rant mode: off)
Anyway, Morrison's Animal Man is really good and you should read it. Although the farther you get into the run, the more it relies on certain plot elements from other superhero comics and inspects the state of the industry as a whole at the time. I dunno how accessible that part of the run would be to most readers.
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Oh sure, I'm not saying all of the treated Vertigo chars were originally lame, but c'mon... Animal Man was pretty lame originally.
I mean really...
Serious...
Okay, I'm done.
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I am uncool even among superhero fans in that I really enjoy superheroes. I don't think weird and kind of goofy equals lame. I can enjoy the really goofy Silver Age stuff in a totally non-ironic way, and think it is fun to read. Was original Animal Man great literature? No, not really. Was it good comics and fun to read? Yes, I think so.
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I am uncool even among superhero fans in that I really enjoy superheroes.
The concept of being uncool in a fandom for actually enjoying that fandom is one of the saddest things. The fact that it's so broadly applicable to so many fandoms is another. When did it become uncool to like stuff?