The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Sports & Leisure => Topic started by: theinevitable on July 06, 2006, 05:09:46 pm
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So, I'm going to Uni in the fall. And I have to pick which language to take. i am a language freak. I have already decided that I must take at least one more Latin class. But I also want to learn a language that I can theoretically use.
However, I am only interested in wierd/difficult languages. And Arabic is, as far as I can tell, really interesting.
Have any of you ever attempted to learn it, or taken classes, or anything? Basically I am asking if it is so difficult that it breaks your mind and spirit.
although apparently it isn't as hard as Latin. Not sure where that site was getting its information.
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What site?
And, I had a couple friends that took Arabic and didn't do well, but they were fuck ups, so that doesn't really tell me anything. Sorry.
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It seems really counter-intuitive that it would harder for an English speaker to learn Latin than Arabic. At least in terms of vocabulary, English has many more Latin derived words than Arabic ones.
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What a cool goal! For a weird and obscure language, Basque gets my vote.
For a language that may be career enhancing later, Chinese.
Arabic would be pretty challenging. Good luck.
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I forget what the site was. it was something about How to Learn Arabic. It may have been this site. (http://www.al-bab.com/arab/language/lang.htm)
and the "latin is harder" comment was in reference to grammar, not vocabulary. They conceded that the vocabulary is much harder.
and yeah, Chinese is the Language to Learn. And Spanish is the Language To Learn So My Family Won't Be Disappointed In Me (not reallly, but it would make my extended family glad if I could talk to them).
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I doubt that Latin grammar is harder than Arabic for an English speaker. It is a related language. Verb forms in Arabic in particular are very different.
Somewhere, there is a chart of relative difficulty they use when they are teaching people languages in the military - they have a lot of experience of exactly how long it takes English speakers to learn foreign languages. I can't put my hands on it right now, dammit. Maybe someone who's more alert than me right now can find it on the web.
Of course I doubt they include Latin but they probably rate the relative difficulty of Chinese and Arabic. I think Arabic would be just as career enhancing as Chinese. But motivation is so important that I think your relative interest in the two is the most important factor.
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This page has the chart I was talking about at the bottom. I can't find a more official reference, but it looks accurate as far as I remember it.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~wbaxter/howhard.html
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yeah. basically I am deciding on Arabic because it is the only language that has no Tick Marks against it.
I am at a loss. I love languages sooo much. But I don't think I'll be a language major. So taking more than 2 is rediculous. Especially because I also want to take music classes, and film, and economics, and psychology, and sociology, and and and *passes out*
Basically I cannot decide which language to take. I am now Snooty from taking Latin, so the romance languages are probably out. Farsi... come on. Hebrew, not particularly useful. Neither is Russian. I have always wanted to take Japanese, but they only speak it in Japan. Chinese would probably be cool, but it scares me.
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Chinese would probably be cool, but it scares me.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Chinese not actually a language whereas it's just Cantonese or Mandarin with various (and numerous) dialects?
I am not trying to be all Pat-like, this was just my understanding.
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yeah. But they're all versions of the main Tongue (if I understand correctly.)
apparently it is the same way in Arabic, but everyone also knows "Standard Arabic." The same as how it used to be in Italy.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Chinese not actually a language whereas it's just Cantonese or Mandarin with various (and numerous) dialects?
Different Chinese languages are as strongly distinct as any other languages with a shared family: they have some common roots, but they are much more than dialects. Learning one makes it easier to learn the others, but the spoken languages are not intercomprehensible more than a very little bit. They do, however, share a common written language for the most part.
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What westerners refer to as different 'dialects' of Chinese are different languages. They are not mutually intelligible when spoken. However, they use the same writng system, and the Chinese writing system does not represent the pronunciation but something closer to the meaning of words. Therefore something written by a speaker of Cantonese can be read by a speaker of Mandarin. But if they talk to each other they won't understand each other.
This is what we tell you in introductory linguistics, anyway. I have no personal experience of Chinese and can't comment on the details.
Arabic is a little different. Again, the local languages that we call 'dialects' are basically different languages. But there is another spoken language, Standard Arabic, that many educated people can speak. This is different from Chinese where it's really the writing that everyone has in common.
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Right, what Ben said at the same time.
But enough about other languages. Do you kids today really call it 'uni'?
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I don't even ask questions anymore...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dialects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dialects)
As for Arabic. Ummmmm...
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no, they don't. I just call it that because I am wierd.
Actually at some point there was a reason I started doing that, but now I forget what it was.
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Do you kids today really call it 'uni'?
In the UK it's very common. But we're lazy.
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I do. Sometimes.
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I knew it was a British thing but I've never heard it here before.
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Uni is a very common European usage, and I've found it's typed a lot here, especially when in conversation with our friends from foreign lands, but not really spoken that often.
I always said "College" or "School," but I would usually type "Uni" online, especially since I was often speaking with people in Europe or Australia where College and University can mean different things.
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Especially because I also want to take music ....film...
NOOOO! Don't take film! Film is the stupid, uglier cousin of theatre! Boo!
Also, in regard to Arabic vs Latin... Arabic is indeed cool, and you could have some wonderful travels in the future if you learn it, but Latin is more practical, in the end (Latin and practical in the same sentence? Huh?) - especially if you're studying another language in relation to your love of languages in general. Learning the roots of your own language is infinitely more valuable in the long run... but that's all depending what you want to do with yourself in the long term.
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oh, there is no question of Latin not being in the cards. I love Latin. I have taken it since I was in 8th grade. I am Gay for Latin, is what I'm attempting to convey here.
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Latin is, um, charming, but I feel compelled to pop in here and put in a word for studying languages in which you can actually speak to other live human beings. Especially since God knows Americans do not do enough of that, particularly in Chinese and Arabic.
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yeah. basically I am deciding on Arabic because it is the only language that has no Tick Marks against it.
I am at a loss. I love languages sooo much. But I don't think I'll be a language major. So taking more than 2 is rediculous. Especially because I also want to take music classes, and film, and economics, and psychology, and sociology, and and and *passes out*
As a Psych major, I'm more than a little biased, but I think that Sociology is a waste of time. Basically it is Psychology without the science. But if you really want to take it, don't bother taking Psych, too. You should take as many interesting classes as you possibly can before being assaulted by distribution requirements and prerequisites for your major(s). Taking both Psychology and Sociology classes is redundant (and I recommend sticking to Psych).
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Maybe consider taking math for a moment! An Intro to Analysis course, perhaps (any theoretical one, really)...
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My sister just graduated with a Chinese major (among other things, I don't really remember her whole list). I don't think she found it terribly difficult, though she's not exactly fluent yet or anything. She got to do a summer research project there last year and had a blast.
A friend of mine in college took Tibetan. It was a pretty language, for sure. Probably towards the bottom on the usefulness scale, though.
Final anecdote: my mom was a Russian linguist in the army in the 70s. They moved her from German to Russian because she had a high language learning ability, and Russian was hard. But she said the weirdest people at the army language institute were the folks learning Korean and Arabic.
And anyone recommending intro to analysis for a non math person is a sick fuck. I like you, theauthors.
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yeah, I mean, I am certainly taking some Math and such as well. I can't really get away with taking all of the classes I listed. At least, not if I want to graduate.
right now my real quandry, meaning the one that actually matters, is this:
I want to be a psych major. I love psychology sooo much. But it seems silly to not go for the MD and be a psychiatrist.
am I willing to spend the next huge chunk of my life working my ass off, in order to be "Dr Daniel?" Wash U has, apparently, a fantastic Med School, so the pre-med program is super-intense. People disappear. All the pre-meds I talked to were basically insane and working their asses off. I know I have the ability (look inside! you know you can do it!) to work hard, but I typically don't do it. Hm.
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I'm just full of relevant anecdotal information today:
My father-in-law is one of the world's preeminent rehabilitative neuropsychologists (helps people regain brain function after strokes, motorcycle accidents and the like). He gets to travel the world and get treated like a king, and he never got his MD - just (just!) a PhD. It's possible.
And he tries to get me drunk on scotch every time I see him. Great guy.
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As a (former) Japanese major, I have to stick up for my language here. Japanese is only spoken in Japan, yes, but Japan is a reasonably influential and important country, particularly in science and business. It may not be as valuable as Chinese and Arabic in terms of employability, but it certainly does increase your employability; I'm pretty sure it was one of the major factors that got me into graduate school. Furthermore, in terms of difficulty, it is Serious Times due to the relative incompatibility of many grammatical concepts with English ones. Passive/causative/passive-causative verb forms, collective suffixes, on- and kun- readings, and politeness levels make gendered nouns and nominative/accusative/dative look like the Junior Jumble. I may be overexaggerating the case due to the infamous sadism of my college's Japanese department, but seriously, if you want a pure linguistic challenge, it's up there.
Anyway, Chinese (or one form of it, anyway) and Arabic are also pretty solid choices. Honestly, if you learn any language with a quintuple-digit-or-better native speaker population other than the non-Spanish Romance languages and possibly German, you will probably have a serious professional edge for it, and I'm sure I don't have to convince anyone gay for Latin about language learning's beneficial effect on your life. Rock on.
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I am moving to Montreal and I don't speak French. I'm taking classes, but...it is sad to be me.
Hey V! Welcome back!
And yeah, I've basically heard that Japanese is shit-hard. You're a better (wo)man than I.
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yeah, I have wanted to take Japanese for a while. But I got scared away from it, basically.
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Japanese also lets you play video games that English-speakers will never be able to enjoy.
But if you try to learn Japanese for this reason or a similar one, you are doomed to failure. DOOMED.
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yeah. the japanese class I sat in on was half Actual Japanese-Americans, and half obnoxious gamer or otaku-types.
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yeah. the japanese class I sat in on was half Actual Japanese-Americans, and half obnoxious gamer or otaku-types.
That's part of the reason I never took Japanese. The other part is that my school's version was seven (7) credits! Way too much time for me to spend on what was basically a lark.
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yeah. the japanese class I sat in on was half Actual Japanese-Americans, and half obnoxious gamer or otaku-types.
The key, if you are an obnoxious otaku-type or have motivations similar to one, is to lie blatantly about your motivations. Remember, your motivation is that you "find the language fascinating." You can also get away with an interest in actual Japanese literature and film (I knew a dude whose cover story was that he wanted to watch Ozu films in the original language) if you keep the dorkout down. This is important, because as much as we joke about it, it's the truth: if Japanese professors figure out that you are in it for the dork cred, they will DESTROY YOU. (The only exception I've ever known was a prof who was himself a huge dork.)
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a bit from someone's blog about learning Japanese (http://www.peterpayne.net/2003/03/japanese-language-overview.html).
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a bit from someone's blog about learning Japanese (http://www.peterpayne.net/2003/03/japanese-language-overview.html).
A+++++ would read again. Excellent guide from a dude who's clearly been in the trenches. If you want a feel for things, this is a good place to start.
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I took 4 years of japanese in high school. The only thing I can think of that would be harder for a westerner would be Chinese.
*shudder*
Super high emphasis on enunciation. Non-standard assimilation of foreign word vocabulary. Chinese just basically one big cluster-fuck, as I view it.
I really want to learn farsi, though.
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Psych is fun, I'm doing my undergraduate in it because it's so fuck*ng easy. Using my inflated GPA to get into law school. Or living in a van down by the river.
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A+++++ would read again. Excellent guide from a dude who's clearly been in the trenches. If you want a feel for things, this is a good place to start.
I only got partway through his tutorial and then got distacted. I guess I am not Good Enough to learn the language. This made me laugh my ass off, though: http://www.peterpayne.net/2003/03/funny-engrish-quotes-from-my-japanese.html
Koji's story
One day I saw many people around my house. Under the pale moon, we started fighting. Then suddenly, God came, I said "What the fack?" and he said to us, "Hi guys, stop fighting!" We said "FUCK YOU." All of us were killed in a moment.
Keiko
I like Edward's [Edward Scizorhands] character (his cute behavior). He is very poor. Because his hands are scissors, he injure his dear person. He is a kind person. I wish he gave human hands.
Noriko
America's road is wide, and fares of taxi, bus, airplane etc. are cheap. But America is dangerous. Because U.S. popularize weapons and drugs. But I don't go dangerous place, like slums. I can almost avoid from danger.
EDIT.... had to add more because I am scaring my cats from laughing so much
Tomo
When I was in high school, my favorite subject was English because my English teacher was a young, beautiful, tasty hot woman, that's why.
Sanae
I think Americans, especially politicians, think that Japanese are yellow rich monkeys and not kind people. Country is rich but people are not rich. I don't want them to think that. I think Japan is hated by other country.
Koji
I think the greatest Japanese who ever lived was Ultraman. When I was a child, I watched him every day. He was a hero to me. Whenever there was a dinosaur, Ultraman killed him for the world.
Yoshinori
Women don't have the ability on average. If someone say to woman, "bring the desk," women can't bring it. But in family, women have to be more aggressive. Because weak mother will spoil children.
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Tomo
When I was in high school, my favorite subject was English because my English teacher was a young, beautiful, tasty hot woman, that's why.
There's something very comforting about other people being so confident in expressing their love for their young, beautiful, tasty hot teachers.
(David Lee Roth doesn't count)
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so, now I'm in this rediculous thing where daily I go back and forth between Arabic and Italian as my language. hm.
also: I love those quotes to death. Ultraman is my favorite.
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Koji
I think the greatest Japanese who ever lived was Ultraman. When I was a child, I watched him every day. He was a hero to me. Whenever there was a dinosaur, Ultraman killed him for the world.
I don't think that anyone can dispute Ultraman's greatness and contributions to the world, but can he really be considered a Japanese citizen if he never lived there for more than three minutes at a time? Beyond that, Earth's polluted atmosphere would have destroyed his strength.
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If someone say to woman, "bring the desk," women can't bring it.
Someone hasn't seen enough teenage girl movies. No one brings it like an American teenage girl in a montage with a hot soundtrack.
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so, I got my 2 arabic textbooks and my 3 latin books today.
I am basically terrified of both classes. But, also, excited. Placing into Latin 300-something is kind of scary. Arabic writing is intimidating.
But also, I'm taking Film, and a music class. and psych. It will be awesome.