The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: RMJ12345 on April 16, 2007, 06:01:14 pm
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At least 29 are dead from a shooting at Virginia Tech (http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3045574).
Jesus.
Tech is just down the road from me, and I was just talking about going there last night.
What a tragedy.
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Man.
I... remember being in college and a class just... stopping so that we could watch in horror as Columbine went down.
And remembering how close my high school was to... happening to us.
Tragic.
Do you know anyone at that school, Rumjay? My condolences if anyone you know was hurt or, God forbid, worse.
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it never ceases to amaze (is there a negative-connotation word for Amaze?) how Broken human beings can become. I guess the right word is maladjusted, or socially dysfunctional... but it seems like people just get broken. A few too many insults, a few to many petty injuries, a few neurotransmitters in the wrong amounts... and we break.
goddamn.
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it never ceases to amaze (is there a negative-connotation word for Amaze?) how Broken human beings can become. I guess the right word is maladjusted, or socially dysfunctional... but it seems like people just get broken. A few too many insults, a few to many petty injuries, a few neurotransmitters in the wrong amounts... and we break.
goddamn.
Devastate maybe?
Man, what the hell? Don't be a cock to strangers! Not ever.
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What Asherdan said.
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Goddamn. There are no words.
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Holy shit, dude.
What I don't understand is that there was a report of shootings around 7AM, and then they got another report 2 hours later. Why wasn't the entire campus on lockdown after the first shooting? I went to CU-Boulder, a campus with 25,000 students, so I understand that such a lockdown would be logistically difficult...but damn!
Also, I cannot imagine what it would be like to orchestrate incident command for a mass casualty incident like that. Crazy. The winds are so high today that they couldn't get medevac helicopters out, either. :(
I can't imagine what people in VA must be feeling right now. My heart really goes out to them.
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What I don't understand is that there was a report of shootings around 7AM, and then they got another report 2 hours later. Why wasn't the entire campus on lockdown after the first shooting? I went to CU-Boulder, a campus with 25,000 students, so I understand that such a lockdown would be logistically difficult...but damn!
That's what I keep saying. People keep acting like it wasn't a mistake and they're blameless....31 people died in the second shooting, you can't write that off. I don't know how much the administration should be blamed, but you can't write that off. Lessons have to be learned.
I do not know many people at VTech. A friend there knew the young man who was murdered in the dorm.
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I have to agree. It must be insanely easy to go about obtaining weapons, and nearly impossible to predict an incident like this. The administration, then, needs to make sure that if an event like this happens, they can minimize the damage. Thirty-one people is a big deal.
I'm trying to stay away from making "oh, god, horrible tragedy" comments. I'd rather this never happened, but I'm much too far from the situation to really suffer.
EDIT: Wow, I sound like a real cunt in this post. I don't mean to make an uninformed assumption that the administration just pottered about while this happened, or that anyone with enough sympathy has no right to it. Sorry if that's how it came across.
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I had to turn the news off because it was making me so angry.
I can understand that the journalists are trained to be droids, but what's with the flat affect of the students that were there? The droning monotone of each one, talking about the shootings with the same diction and expression they'd use to say that they were going to the mall to buy pizza was just appalling. It's like everyone is prepared to perform on TV that they are acting instead of reacting because this is their 15 minutes.
Then there are the infographics - FoxNews.com (admittedly, I was already angry when I went there just to let them push me over the edge) had a map of the campus with little skulls and crossbones where each shooting took place. I tried to find it an hour later so I could send the link to someone but it was gone. I hope the person who made it (or requested it be made) was fired.
Then there are the wonks on another news network making the case for more guns - saying things like "If more people carried guns, only two people would have died - the first victim and then the shooter, because someone would have shot him." Yes, clearly the point is to make these kinds of shootings even easier to initiate. Clearly, that is the answer.
Fuck these sensationalist jackals. Fuck them in the FACE.
Jough, pouring a bit of his 40oz out for the fallen.
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I can understand that the journalists are trained to be droids, but what's with the flat affect of the students that were there? The droning monotone of each one, talking about the shootings with the same diction and expression they'd use to say that they were going to the mall to buy pizza was just appalling. It's like everyone is prepared to perform on TV that they are acting instead of reacting because this is their 15 minutes.
I don't know, I mean, it's kind of hard to know how to react with that sort of thing. You don't want to break down on national television, either. Sometimes you just have to shut down in order to function.
There was one girl I saw who got in a very sly plug for her messageboard, and I wondered about her. But I would guess that most of them are in shock/eliminating emotions soas to not break down.
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personally, when people around me are really upset I start reflexively smiling. I do not know why this is... I always have to cover my mouth.
not that I'm advocating this at all, as modern people would find a way to fuck this up-- but it is true that the reason Wild West towns weren't actually that violent is that everyone had guns. Starting crazy shoot-out shit would have been asking to be plugged.
I kind of hate guns though, so, you know.
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...what's with the flat affect of the students that were there?
I would call it verbal shock. You have to be emotionless, or all of it will come out and you won't be able to walk or speak any more.
Your soul's so crushed your body runs on autopilot.
It won't be real to most of them, yet. The first night is a bitch. The first morning is worse.
Those students who were there will never be the same, and some of them are going to be kicking themselves for the rest of their lives for something they think they could have done to prevent just one death.
Those students you saw haven't even begun the process of comprehension. Grief can't come until then.
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I have a very good friend that goes to VT. When I first heard of the shooting I immediately grabbed my phone & sent her a text (I would've called, but I was @ work & we aren't even supposed to have our cell phones @ work). A few minutes later she texted me back & we texted back & forth for awhile. She admitted that the entire thing hadn't even sunk in yet. For the people that actually witnessed the horrors that happened today, & especially the people who experienced them, I can imagine that they're in a state of shock. Their minds must be in a place that we can't even comprehend.
What sickens me to no end, though...just when you think that this tragedy could get any worse...the Fred Phelps clan has announced that they're going to picket the funerals of all the people who died today. I don't like the word "hate"...and I very rarely use it...but I hate that man.
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I watched a video about those guys, and I kind of started digging on some Ultraviolence.
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What sickens me to no end, though...just when you think that this tragedy could get any worse...the Fred Phelps clan has announced that they're going to picket the funerals of all the people who died today. I don't like the word "hate"...and I very rarely use it...but I hate that man.
You know, I was going to ask why, but... I don't even want to know.
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I have a very good friend that goes to VT. When I first heard of the shooting I immediately grabbed my phone & sent her a text (I would've called, but I was @ work & we aren't even supposed to have our cell phones @ work). A few minutes later she texted me back & we texted back & forth for awhile. She admitted that the entire thing hadn't even sunk in yet. For the people that actually witnessed the horrors that happened today, & especially the people who experienced them, I can imagine that they're in a state of shock. Their minds must be in a place that we can't even comprehend.
What sickens me to no end, though...just when you think that this tragedy could get any worse...the Fred Phelps clan has announced that they're going to picket the funerals of all the people who died today. I don't like the word "hate"...and I very rarely use it...but I hate that man.
Oh gah... fuck Fred Phelps in his dirty, rotten eye. I hate that man. I hate him so much.
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The Phelps clan was about 3 blocks away from my apartment last week. I had no school or work. If I would have known about it, I would have been hell of yelling. Scum of the fuck*ng earth, he is.
Jough- I understand what you are saying, but at the same time, they are actually the ones who may have lost a friend, etc. Although, I saw a video with this girl that was in the class that got shot up, and she was completely normal. I am not about to convict her, but it was really weird.
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Fred Phelps, yeah, that's the dude. I went to a Christian concert last Friday night with my parents and some kids from their church. When we were leaving there was a group of people standing outside the venue and one was preaching (shouting) admonitions to the people leaving the show. He was rattling on about "hollywood entertainment." I heard him say "I know most of you think you are Christians." I said to my Dad "Man, I wonder if these guys are related to..." but I couldn't remember his name, Fred Phelps. It wouldn't have mattered, my Dad doesn't know who Fred Phelps is anyway.
But yeah, In Virginia, what are they going to protest exactly?
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Had to be him, he was in Oklahoma Thursday.
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Had to be him, he was in Oklahoma Thursday.
No, it wasn't him, but filled with as much hate.
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I really liked this one clip I saw where they picketed a "Jew Church" for being rectum worshippers. They killed Jesus-- and Jesus is God.
Cat Stevens (Yusef Islam) once said "I'm glad I converted to Islam before I'd met very many Muslims." I feel this probably applies to this situation as well.
...I really want to meet a self-righteous Buddhist who's totally a dick about his religion. It has to exist.
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I know some athiest that like to say Buddha can kick Jesus's ass. Does that count?
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Also, that Cat Stevens quote sounds like some snopes.com made up bs.
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yeah, I dunno, my Arabic teacher really likes giving us sayings in Arabic and making us try to translate them. I feel like it was a paraphrase of something some well-known Quranic scholar said.
But yeah, it does sound like BS. Hm.
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No, it wasn't him, but filled with as much hate.
I was being sarcastic. Duh.
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What sickens me to no end, though...just when you think that this tragedy could get any worse...the Fred Phelps clan has announced that they're going to picket the funerals of all the people who died today. I don't like the word "hate"...and I very rarely use it...but I hate that man.
Reading something about Fred Phelps and his goons always makes my blood boil, but then I remember... no matter how much you hate Fred Phelps, Fred Phelps hates you even more. Then I just feel kind of sad for him.
I mean, really, is there anything more tragic than an old man who's wasted away the last fifty-odd years of his life just hating everything?
This has got to be the worst possible thread in which to ask that question. Obviously it's on a lower order of magnitude than yesterday's events, but that's pretty damn tragic nonetheless. In a more appropriate time and place I might allude to the Saddest Thing here, but right now that just wouldn't be right.
it never ceases to amaze (is there a negative-connotation word for Amaze?) how Broken human beings can become. I guess the right word is maladjusted, or socially dysfunctional... but it seems like people just get broken. A few too many insults, a few to many petty injuries, a few neurotransmitters in the wrong amounts... and we break.
goddamn.
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Reading something about Fred Phelps and his goons always makes my blood boil, but then I remember... no matter how much you hate Fred Phelps, Fred Phelps hates you even more. Then I just feel kind of sad for him.
Hey, that is an really good point.
Also, I meant to give theinev props for the awesome post as well. So there it was, I guess.
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I hesitate to write this post, because I'm afraid it will be misunderstood. Let me preface it by saying that I think the shootings were a horrible, horrible tragedy and I am in no way trying to lessen or distract from it.
As a parent, this story filled me with fear and empathy. But it just struck me when I heard the news that 33 people had been killed in Blacksburg that we've been hearing similar stories on an almost daily basis for several years now. It seems like every day (surely every week) we hear about bombings or shootings of dozens of people in Iraq. It disturbs me that those deaths don't emotionally affect me in the same way, or much at all really.
The people killed at Virginia Tech were innocent (or as innocent as us human beings can be...) They were sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, husbands, wives, aunts and uncles. They had lives that were tragically and unfairly cut short. So were the people killed in Baghdad this week (and last week and the week before and the week before that...)
Over the next weeks and months, the media will depict these shootings as a "National Tragedy". And it absolutely is. We should mourn these senseless deaths and be angry at the conditions that allowed them to take place.
I'm just trying to conceive how it would feel to have killings on this scale on a daily basis.
Also, this article (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html) is a little tongue in cheek, I suppose, but it's deadly accurate.
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The shooter has been id'ed as Cho Hui Seung. Not that knowing makes any difference.
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As far as people seeming strangely calm when interviewed - aside from the possibility of people basically being in a state of shock, it's also worth remembering that no one can MAKE you talk to a reporter. You are seeing a self selected population who feel they are in a condition where they can keep it together, you know?
But I am glad I didn't think to turn the TV on. I already know how offensive TV coverage of this sort of thing is, I don't need to see more. And you know, I have no idea who Fred Phelps is and I think I don't want to know. It sounds like he doesn't need more publicity.
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The shooter has been id'ed as Cho Hui Seung. Not that knowing makes any difference.
It goes along with what Loren Coleman predicted in March, that we'd see more of the type of thing we've seen, in Spring, as a copycat of those happening in Fall, and that it would be radically more violent than those previously, and would begin to be perpetrated more by 'outsiders' rather than caucasion males. I've rarely seen things like this predicted so accurately.
The book is talking about how the media are essentially responsible for causing the copycat killings, since they hype these occurrences up so much, making them 'the deadliest ever' and such. Again I say, in all seriousness, FUCK YOU CNN! FUCK YOU IN THE EYE!
http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2007/03/school-shooting-seasons.html (http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2007/03/school-shooting-seasons.html)
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I was going to make a post on this, but noticed August had made it with more tact, less vitriol and a lot more sense. Thanks, man.
All I can offer to anyone involved is my unreserved sympathy. Gah, it's fuck*ng tragic. It's pointless to blame the gun but it sickens me that such an amount of power can be put into one person's hand.
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Reading something about Fred Phelps and his goons always makes my blood boil, but then I remember... no matter how much you hate Fred Phelps, Fred Phelps hates you even more. Then I just feel kind of sad for him.
Can'd for a most excellent point.
What's weird is that he was actually on the side of good in the 1960s - he was a very active lawyer for the civil rights movement. And he's very anti-war. But he's also despicable.
I read that he's protesting to say that God sent a madman in retribution for W's war.
As a parent, this story filled me with fear and empathy. But it just struck me when I heard the news that 33 people had been killed in Blacksburg that we've been hearing similar stories on an almost daily basis for several years now. It seems like every day (surely every week) we hear about bombings or shootings of dozens of people in Iraq. It disturbs me that those deaths don't emotionally affect me in the same way, or much at all really.
Agreed.
I think it's the monstrosity factor (poor diction, but whatever) that gets me. In Iraq, deaths are the result of cars bombs or a suicide bomber or general warfare. At Tech, one single person made the decision to kill that many people in cold blood.
It's, how can one human being do that? Kill all those people and injure so many others, in such a short time, at such close range, so personally. It's the setting too - in a war zone, you deal with the possibility of death every single day, and you have some kind of preparation. These people had their lives ripped from them in the most mundane of settings, with no kind of notice, doing something that every single one of us have done at some point.
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yeah, I was kind of wondering how many people died in Iraq yesterday too.
(I will look this up when I have more than a minute, but I have to run to class. Do not think this is such as "I've always wanted to be able to spell "Hippopotamus")
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I would call it verbal shock. You have to be emotionless, or all of it will come out and you won't be able to walk or speak any more.
Your soul's so crushed your body runs on autopilot.
Unfortunately, verbal shock doesn't explain the editor of the VT school newspaper, who started making the rounds of the cable channels very early on yesterday afternoon (by 3:30 pm or so?), in full makeup and dress with an "I can't believe how lucky I am today" grin on her face that she couldn't entirely wipe off no matter how hard she tried, and inserting inappropriate giggles into the answers to her questions.
Times like this I wish I was the boss just so I could put her on the "Will NEVER Work Here" list.
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There are always going to be people floating around major tragedies thinking that its their big break. I live in the city where they all go after they realize they're never gonna be in the wrong place at the right time while living in Bumblefuck, Iowa so they move to LA.
They think that being Known gets them closer to godhood and... any moral qualms are swept aside.
That's hardly a particular reflection on this tragedy, though, I'd say.
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The Phelps clan was in my neighborhood last year, pouring vitriol over the mourners at a funeral for a transsexual girl who'd been murdered by her classmates. I won't repeat their hate by quoting the sorts of things they were saying, but it brought a new dimension to the word "depravity" for me.
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Unfortunately, verbal shock doesn't explain the editor of the VT school newspaper, who started making the rounds of the cable channels very early on yesterday afternoon (by 3:30 pm or so?), in full makeup and dress with an "I can't believe how lucky I am today" grin on her face that she couldn't entirely wipe off no matter how hard she tried, and inserting inappropriate giggles into the answers to her questions.
Times like this I wish I was the boss just so I could put her on the "Will NEVER Work Here" list.
My younger sister got a degree in journalism (she works at a bank now) and her profs used to always say, "it if bleeds, it leads." Hardcore journalists and the ones who aspire to be them...well, apparently they love a good bleedin' story like this one, because it puts their mug out there front and center, ups the ratings. Too bad she's so unprofessional about it. Why can't she get stoic and act like a real goddamn journalist?
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I'm always in late to these discussions.
August, to answer your rhetorical question from a page ago - it's because Iraq is so far away, and it's a foreign place to us so we can't really conceptualize it, whereas a college campus right here in the U.S. - it feels closer to home because it *is* closer to home.
"Only" 56 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm) U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq this month so far, but the total death toll is in the thousands.
But it's so far away. Who cares?
And as for these kids suffering on the inside - you may not have seen the footage I saw. They were playing to the cameras, performing or acting rather than reacting.
Remember when people would break down when talking about a tragedy because it would finally be real to them? I'm thinking that to these kids it will never be real to them. The goal of life is to be on television.
Check out cnn.com and look for a video with some VTech students. It's chilling how casual they are. Some of them are laughing about it.
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These damn kids today!!!
How many millienia have people been saying that? Without looking at a second of footage, I'm positive that you are totally correct, El Guapo. I'll take it on faith that the TV fucks managed to find a few 19 year olds who were clueless enough to behave shamefully. Surely the fact that college students behave in a shockin manner indicates the decline of society at large, because god knows neither you nor I acted like cocks when we were that age. Doubtless our society as a whole should be judge by how these late adolescents act.
And yes, I absolutely understand the objective reasons why it's hard for us to appreciate deaths on the other side of the planet. I just thought the "Monkeysphere" theory explained it pretty eloquently.
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I just wish I knew why it was all over *my* news as well. Solomon islands are closer and I'm fairly sure more than 30 people died in that earthquake they had a couple of weeks back but that didn't get the kind of coverage this is getting. They've managed to find the few australian people on the campus and the news and current affairs shows are relentlessly passing them around as they talk about how traumatic everything is.
I sympathise but I don't believe this kind of hype makes anything any better, if anything, as has already been said, it compounds the trauma and inspires copycats.
So cynical little me spent about five minutes feeling disgusted at the human race and since then I've been just waiting to see Jack Thompson pop up on whatever news channel will still take him (Fox, go figure).
Possibly the worst thing is that it turns these people, who were real people, mostly young, and who died in a brutal fashion, into talking points, into arguments for and against the same stupid opinions people have been trying to peddle for years. It's undignified.
I think only a limited amount of blame can be placed on the administration for not responding quickly enough, murders happen every day and they are usually isolated incidents not the beginning of this kind of rampage. That said I would have thought the fact that someone was running around with a gun might have warranted some sort of evacuation.
While I'm offending people does anyone think having police in riot gear outside the school at this point is going to do any good at all (this is what I am seeing in the news so sorry if it's old footage)? Do they think he's going to come back?
And just because I haven't been able to get this tidbit out of my head all day: The official worst gun rampage ever happened in Port Arthur, Australia in '96, claimed 35 lives and wounded 37 and caused the government to roll out some very strict gun laws. We haven't had a similar massacre since but then my anti-tiger rock is still working too.
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It's all over Canadian news too.
This has effected me pretty deeply. Probably because I am sick and weakend and so worn out that watching TV is the only thing I can do that doesn't cause my head to spin. Also because I spend a lot of time working for/with large groups of young people. I keep refreshing pages, flipping between news channels. I keep asking myself what I'm looking for, what I hope to find... but it's nothing. There is nothing that will make this make sense to me. The media coverage is disgusting and glorifying, and I can't turn away because it's such a clear picture of what the world is coming to.
Even though I'm anti-gun in everyway, I totally believe this is not a gun controle issue at all.
Other artists and educators are usually in disagreement with me when it comes to my opposition to inclusive education of all children. Incorporating students with mental disabilities, and chemical/emotional problems into classrooms of students of their own age level is basically the standard for all young people here (and I'm guessing in most of the US). For kids with these issues who have mild-to-moderate challenges, I see and know that it's beneficial for both the students with disabilities and the rest of their peers to be in a classroom together. What see more and more, and what I deeply oppose is kids included in public school classrooms that are so significantly imbalanced or delayed that they are not with peers at all - they are with people their own age, yes, but not with peers. I personally know educators who have been physically assaulted a students with a long list of previous inappropriate behavior, and come back the next day to find the student still in the class, the issue barely address with the student and parent(s). My friends are told these students need the socialization rather than to be disciplined or placed in a program where the students' difficulties can be properly addressed. Inclusive education works for some, but not all, and not recognizing this is a huge failing of the school system. There needs to be an opportunity within reach for students with severe disturbances to be removed from a system that can not help them. There needs to be an opportunity for educators to participate in identifying young people who have severe emotional or chemical imbalance, and schools where these students can go to both learn and get the treatment they need. There is this politically correct notion that everyone can fit in and belong, but it's simply not true. Some people need to be institutionalized to protect themselves and society.
I was recently talking to a teacher who told me of an extremely disturbed student in her class - the behavior he exhibits is highly, highly dangerous to himself and fellow students. The actions the teacher witnessed and described to me were so outside the realm of healthy behavior that I was shaken. The school system sent an agent in to assess the child. The agent observed the child for less than a half hour, with absolutely no interaction with the child, and upon leaving, the agent told this teacher that as far as he was concerned the child did not need a teaching aid, or to be taught differently than any of the other students. Treatment is too expensive to be dolled out. This teacher was nearly in tears as she told me she was left alone, with nearly thirty students and this one child who at the very least would grow to live a very unhappy, lonely adult life, and at very worst become one of those young men who make the news for lashing out.
When I hear about a young man like Seung-Hui, all I can think is that I've met kids just like him. Kids I know will end up doing violent, horrible things - maybe in the privacy of their homes to people who will suffer it in silence, or in a grand media splashed public event. I've know people so mentally ill that both they and society would benefit from their placement in a mental health facility for as long as it takes to make their conditions manageable in significant concrete ways, even if that day never comes. But we don't do that. We wait for kids like this to act out in worse and worse ways, waiting for them to get caught doing something criminal so we can finally toss them in the justice system. A frustrated teacher, physically assaulted by a student once asked me "what does it take? Does a kid have to kill someone now for anything to be done?"
This is not at all to excuse this horrific act. No matter how unhealthy the person, they do not get a free pass. But what I am saying is the problem is deeply systemic.
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So... what exactly did he do, prior to this, that singled him out as particularly imbalanced? I've read the stories he wrote that were so "shocking," and quite frankly... they tell me nothing. Lots of people write creepily violent stories-- some of them make lots of money at doing this. He harassed girls? This (depressingly) goes on so much that not much notice was taken, apparently. It seems to me that a lot of the stuff we're hearing is a clear example of hindsight being 20/20, you know?
Or am I missing something?
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No, I don't think you're missing anything, other than a personal observation of the situation that one of the professors has described for the media. Certainly, if someone had a look at some of the stuff I've written over the years, and used it as a sole judge for determining my potential for (acting out?) they'd have put me into the cell next to Mr Cho. On the other hand, none of my teachers (as far as I can tell) would have looked at my overall behavior and said "If we don't lock jay-dub up, he's going to terrify his classmates so much they won't come to class."
I think, perhaps, we as a society need to treat teachers as the professionals that they are. They interact with their students in an intimate way day in and day out. When one has an opinion about the relative risk of a student, any administrative confirmation of that opinion would probably be better served deciding whether that teacher is biased unfairly against the student (which certainly happens). Some penny-pinching pinhead from the district office watching the student for 30min cannot possibly form a valid opinion, unless Junior takes that moment to begin his 15 minutes of fame.
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and now the question becomes... how many teachers have thoughts like this without anything ever coming of them?
for some reason I am having thoughts of the film Minority Report.
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So... what exactly did he do, prior to this, that singled him out as particularly imbalanced? I've read the stories he wrote that were so "shocking," and quite frankly... they tell me nothing. Lots of people write creepily violent stories-- some of them make lots of money at doing this. He harassed girls? This (depressingly) goes on so much that not much notice was taken, apparently. It seems to me that a lot of the stuff we're hearing is a clear example of hindsight being 20/20, you know?
Or am I missing something?
This is from the Washington Post:
Cho (whose full name is pronounced joh sung-wee) appears first to have alarmed the noted Virginia Tech poet Nikki Giovanni in a creative writing class in fall 2005, Giovanni said.
Cho took pictures of fellow students during class and wrote about death, she said in an interview. "Kids write about murder and suicide all the time. But there was something that made all of us pay attention closely. None of us were comfortable with that," she said.
The students once recited their poems in class. "It was like, 'What are you trying to say here?' It was more sinister," she said.
Days later, seven of Giovanni's 70 or so students showed up for a class. She asked them why the others didn't show up and was told that they were afraid of Cho.
It's hard for me to imagine that this would have only seemed like a big deal in hindsight. This isn't just a couple of teachers thinking he was a weird kid. It's scary that someone can give as many signals as this guy seemed to and yet he didn't get any help - to make him better or to at least keep us safe from him.
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dang, OK then. What little I had read seemed like it was just... hindsight. OK.
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Just to riterate. I'm not at all talking about creative expression. I didn't mention that once. I'm an artist myself, and I know there is a separation between my work and me. Not everything is autobiography. Except maybe 90% of the first novels out there. Anyway... Half the kids in our film programs think their Quentin Tarantino, and... I'm not worried about most of them. I never judge students by the ways they choose to express themselves artistically.
and now the question becomes... how many teachers have thoughts like this without anything ever coming of them?
I'm sorry the inev, but this is not rad - I get that you say you didn't know the facts when you posted this, but why suggest teachers aren't competent when this wasn't even on the table? I work with educators every day, and the vast majority are there because they care about their students, and expressing caring and concern for a student is never wrong. In the case of suspected abuse, it is the law in Canada - and as far as I understand it in the US too - that we report this to Child and Family services and leave it to professionals in the field to assess whether our concern is legitimate or not, whether action is required or not, and if so how much. There is no similar system for if we suspect a child of having serious mental health concerns - there should be, but there isn't - it's dealt with in the schools by councilors who are overwhelmed in dealing with special ed, esl, career & post secondary counseling, "regular" students who've misbehaved, sex ed, etc. School councilors are not psychologists, they are not equipped to handle the profound needs of someone having a psychological breakdown.
I deal with trouble makers and odd balls every day , and often these sorts of kids are my favorites, because they can most benefit from being given a voice, but those with serious mental health issue are an absolutely different ilk and stick out like a sore thumb. I stress that I'm not talking about kids with mild issues here, I'm talking about young people who are unable to function appropriately, who are isolated by their illness, their own actions and/or other students' fear or disdain of them. I know exactly what to do if a student exhibits behavior that points to him/her being abused, but there is similar route to follow if a student's behavior points to him/her suffering from mental health issues.
The instructor of Cho's class mentioned in wombat's post said she would quit if he was not removed from the class. In response to this the head of the English department sent him an email request stating that she needed to meet with him, he replied with a threatening and incoherent message, she pressed him to meet with her, he did, and since he agreed to see a councilor the English chair said she was was unable to expell him due to policy and had no option but to independently tutored him since he couldn't possibly go back to that class. She was very concerned for his wellbeing, felt he was seriously ill, and a danger. She went to the campus police repeatedly, first with the email he sent to her, then with verbal reports of behavior that worried her. He was accessed as being a danger to himself and others by a school councilor in 2005, then very briefly committed due to being accessed as suicidal. Then what? It would be almost amusing if it weren't so tragic to look at how people are hustled through the mental health system, how after care (unless initiated by the patient) is a joke. Cho got released. A lot of people died.
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I wasn't trying to suggest that teachers are incompetent. What I am/was saying is that a lot of people might think that a kid is "disturbed" if he wrote about that kind of stuff, and in the majority of cases the kid does not shoot up the school. It is more an issue of teachers not being psychologists. It's often easy to misinterpret stuff.
Although obviously, it seems that in this case it was pretty extreme behavior, if it was making kids want to avoid class.
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Although obviously, it seems that in this case it was pretty extreme behavior, if it was making kids want to avoid class.
I would think that this kind of situation would have to be really extreme for students to miss workshop. I've been in a lot of creative writing workshops, and I've seen violent and disturbing stuff. Not once have I ever, ever, ever thought of skipping class for fear of a student being a danger. It takes a lot to make 90% of a class of serious students see something that goes beyond creative expression and into this other realm.
I don't know. I just can't imagine encountering a student like that.
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Indeed teachers are not psychologists, which is why, like I said before there needs to be an option in place similar to the sort of action taken if a teacher suspects abuse - where if a teacher suspects mental illness that s/he can report the issue to a professional psychologist who can analyze whether this is the case or not, and if any sort of treatment is necessary, put it in to action. An emergency abuse report is addressed by an agent within 24hrs, and I'm saying mental health issues need to be taken just as seriously. Having made abuse reports and spoken to CFS agents before they always tell me the same thing - they'd rather investigate a dozen reports that turn out to unfounded, than not be reported to about that one kid who ends up beaten to death by a parent. And I really feel the same would be said for saving the life of a suicidal student, or preventing a student from acting out in violence.
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yes-- we definitely agree on that. I just worry about the kids who are going to be freaked-out at after this-- just like what happened after Columbine.
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Well, he is paying to be there. Maybe public high schools, but in this situation there is really nothing you can do in that situation unless he wants to go or commits a crime. Otherwise you would have to give him his money back and make him leave I guess, and that isn't going to happen at a University. They are businesses too.
Also, as to the kids freaked out thing, there was a guy who walked into our college gym at 9am Tuesday. He was carrying an umbrella because it was raining. Someone thought it was a rifle, the president sent a warning email, and then, an hour later, another one came saying they think it was a yoga mat. An hour after that, the guy "turned himself in" and said it was an umbrella. They emailed us that too.
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I meant more along the "you wear black, are you going to shoot up the school? The last people to shoot up a school wore black."
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At work we were supposed to wear Tech stuff on Friday. At the bottom of my drawer I found and old "Partnership for a Hokie-free nation" shirt. Needless to say I just wen ahead and threw that away.
Also, on Friday I drove past the South Korean embassy and their flag was a half staff.
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Thanks, AW, for saying something that I've been thinking but haven't seen articulated much. If we got as up in arms about the killing of random Middle Eastern people as we did about what happened in Blacksburg, things would be mighty different.
Lotta Hokies in my building. The shooter and two of the victims went to the high school where my kids are projected to go. As one might imagine, folks are pretty shaken up around here.