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Author Topic: Massacre at Virginia Tech  (Read 12400 times)

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wombat

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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2007, 02:26:02 pm »

As far as people seeming strangely calm when interviewed - aside from the possibility of people basically being in a state of shock, it's also worth remembering that no one can MAKE you talk to a reporter.  You are seeing a self selected population who feel they are in a condition where they can keep it together, you know?

But I am glad I didn't think to turn the TV on. I already know how offensive TV coverage of this sort of thing is, I don't need to see more.  And you know, I have no idea who Fred Phelps is and I think I don't want to know. It sounds like he doesn't need more publicity.
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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2007, 02:56:06 pm »

The shooter has been id'ed as Cho Hui Seung.  Not that knowing makes any difference.

It goes along with what Loren Coleman predicted in March, that we'd see more of the type of thing we've seen, in Spring, as a copycat of those happening in Fall, and that it would be radically more violent than those previously, and would begin to be perpetrated more by 'outsiders' rather than caucasion males. I've rarely seen things like this predicted so accurately.
The book is talking about how the media are essentially responsible for causing the copycat killings, since they hype these occurrences up so much, making them 'the deadliest ever' and such. Again I say, in all seriousness, FUCK YOU CNN! FUCK YOU IN THE EYE!

http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2007/03/school-shooting-seasons.html
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Drygioni

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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2007, 03:28:00 pm »

I was going to make a post on this, but noticed August had made it with more tact, less vitriol and a lot more sense. Thanks, man.

All I can offer to anyone involved is my unreserved sympathy. Gah, it's fuck*ng tragic. It's pointless to blame the gun but it sickens me that such an amount of power can be put into one person's hand.
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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2007, 05:02:51 pm »

Reading something about Fred Phelps and his goons always makes my blood boil, but then I remember... no matter how much you hate Fred Phelps, Fred Phelps hates you even more.  Then I just feel kind of sad for him.

Can'd for a most excellent point.

What's weird is that he was actually on the side of good in the 1960s - he was a very active lawyer for the civil rights movement. And he's very anti-war. But he's also despicable.

I read that he's protesting to say that God sent a madman in retribution for W's war.

Quote
As a parent, this story filled me with fear and empathy.  But it just struck me when I heard the news that 33 people had been killed in Blacksburg that we've been hearing similar stories on an almost daily basis for several years now.  It seems like every day (surely every week) we hear about bombings or shootings of dozens of people in Iraq.  It disturbs me that those deaths don't emotionally affect me in the same way, or much at all really.

Agreed.

I think it's the monstrosity factor (poor diction, but whatever) that gets me. In Iraq, deaths are the result of cars bombs or a suicide bomber or general warfare. At Tech, one single person made the decision to kill that many people in cold blood.

It's, how can one human being do that? Kill all those people and injure so many others, in such a short time, at such close range, so personally. It's the setting too - in a war zone, you deal with the possibility of death every single day, and you have some kind of preparation. These people had their lives ripped from them in the most mundane of settings, with no kind of notice, doing something that every single one of us have done at some point.

theinevitable

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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2007, 06:18:51 pm »

yeah, I was kind of wondering how many people died in Iraq yesterday too.

(I will look this up when I have more than a minute, but I have to run to class. Do not think this is such as "I've always wanted to be able to spell "Hippopotamus")
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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2007, 06:46:29 pm »

I would call it verbal shock.  You have to be emotionless, or all of it will come out and you won't be able to walk or speak any more.

Your soul's so crushed your body runs on autopilot.

Unfortunately, verbal shock doesn't explain the editor of the VT school newspaper, who started making the rounds of the cable channels very early on yesterday afternoon (by 3:30 pm or so?), in full makeup and dress with an "I can't believe how lucky I am today" grin on her face that she couldn't entirely wipe off no matter how hard she tried, and inserting inappropriate giggles into the answers to her questions.

Times like this I wish I was the boss just so I could put her on the "Will NEVER Work Here" list.
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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2007, 06:57:22 pm »

There are always going to be people floating around major tragedies thinking that its their big break. I live in the city where they all go after they realize they're never gonna be in the wrong place at the right time while living in Bumblefuck, Iowa so they move to LA.

They think that being Known gets them closer to godhood and... any moral qualms are swept aside.

That's hardly a particular reflection on this tragedy, though, I'd say.
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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2007, 07:50:14 pm »

The Phelps clan was in my neighborhood last year, pouring vitriol over the mourners at a funeral for a transsexual girl who'd been murdered by her classmates.  I won't repeat their hate by quoting the sorts of things they were saying, but it brought a new dimension to the word "depravity" for me.
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linnea

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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2007, 03:17:50 am »

Unfortunately, verbal shock doesn't explain the editor of the VT school newspaper, who started making the rounds of the cable channels very early on yesterday afternoon (by 3:30 pm or so?), in full makeup and dress with an "I can't believe how lucky I am today" grin on her face that she couldn't entirely wipe off no matter how hard she tried, and inserting inappropriate giggles into the answers to her questions.

Times like this I wish I was the boss just so I could put her on the "Will NEVER Work Here" list.

My younger sister got a degree in journalism (she works at a bank now) and her profs used to always say, "it if bleeds, it leads." Hardcore journalists and the ones who aspire to be them...well, apparently they love a good bleedin' story like this one, because it puts their mug out there front and center, ups the ratings. Too bad she's so unprofessional about it. Why can't she get stoic and act like a real goddamn journalist?
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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2007, 04:08:38 am »

I'm always in late to these discussions.

August, to answer your rhetorical question from a page ago - it's because Iraq is so far away, and it's a foreign place to us so we can't really conceptualize it, whereas a college campus right here in the U.S. - it feels closer to home because it *is* closer to home.

"Only" 56 U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq this month so far, but the total death toll is in the thousands.

But it's so far away.  Who cares?

And as for these kids suffering on the inside - you may not have seen the footage I saw.  They were playing to the cameras, performing or acting rather than reacting. 

Remember when people would break down when talking about a tragedy because it would finally be real to them?  I'm thinking that to these kids it will never be real to them.  The goal of life is to be on television.

Check out cnn.com and look for a video with some VTech students.  It's chilling how casual they are.  Some of them are laughing about it.

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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2007, 04:21:59 am »

These damn kids today!!!

How many millienia have people been saying that?  Without looking at a second of footage, I'm positive that you are totally correct, El Guapo.   I'll take it on faith that the TV fucks managed to find a few 19 year olds who were clueless enough to behave shamefully.  Surely the fact that college students behave in a shockin manner indicates the decline of society at large, because god knows neither you nor I acted like cocks when we were that age.  Doubtless our society as a whole should be judge by how these late adolescents act.

And yes, I absolutely understand the objective reasons why it's hard for us to appreciate deaths on the other side of the planet.  I just thought the "Monkeysphere" theory explained it pretty eloquently.
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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2007, 10:59:52 am »

I just wish I knew why it was all over *my* news as well. Solomon islands are closer and I'm fairly sure more than 30 people died in that earthquake they had a couple of weeks back but that didn't get the kind of coverage this is getting. They've managed to find the few australian people on the campus and the news and current affairs shows are relentlessly passing them around as they talk about how traumatic everything is.
I sympathise but I don't believe this kind of hype makes anything any better, if anything, as has already been said, it compounds the trauma and inspires copycats.
So cynical little me spent about five minutes feeling disgusted at the human race and since then I've been just waiting to see Jack Thompson pop up on whatever news channel will still take him (Fox, go figure).
Possibly the worst thing is that it turns these people, who were real people, mostly young, and who died in a brutal fashion, into talking points, into arguments for and against the same stupid opinions people have been trying to peddle for years. It's undignified.
I think only a limited amount of blame can be placed on the administration for not responding quickly enough, murders happen every day and they are usually isolated incidents not the beginning of this kind of rampage. That said I would have thought the fact that someone was running around with a gun might have warranted some sort of evacuation.
While I'm offending people does anyone think having police in riot gear outside the school at this point is going to do any good at all (this is what I am seeing in the news so sorry if it's old footage)? Do they think he's going to come back?

And just because I haven't been able to get this tidbit out of my head all day: The official worst gun rampage ever happened in Port Arthur, Australia in '96, claimed 35 lives and wounded 37 and caused the government to roll out some very strict gun laws. We haven't had a similar massacre since but then my anti-tiger rock is still working too.
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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2007, 08:42:29 pm »

It's all over Canadian news too. 

This has effected me pretty deeply.  Probably because I am sick and weakend and so worn out that watching TV is the only thing I can do that doesn't cause my head to spin.  Also because I spend a lot of time working for/with large groups of young people.  I keep refreshing pages, flipping between news channels.  I keep asking myself what I'm looking for, what I hope to find...  but it's nothing.  There is nothing that will make this make sense to me.  The media coverage is disgusting and glorifying, and I can't turn away because it's such a clear picture of what the world is coming to.

Even though I'm anti-gun in everyway, I totally believe this is not a gun controle issue at all. 

Other artists and educators are usually in disagreement with me when it comes to my opposition to inclusive education of all children.  Incorporating students with mental disabilities, and chemical/emotional problems into classrooms of students of their own age level is basically the standard for all young people here (and I'm guessing in most of the US).  For kids with these issues who have mild-to-moderate challenges, I see and know that it's beneficial for both the students with disabilities and the rest of their peers to be in a classroom together.  What see more and more, and what I deeply oppose is kids included in public school classrooms that are so significantly imbalanced or delayed that they are not with peers at all - they are with people their own age, yes, but not with peers.  I personally know educators who have been physically assaulted a students with a long list of previous inappropriate behavior, and come back the next day to find the student still in the class, the issue barely address with the student and parent(s).  My friends are told these students need the socialization rather than to be disciplined or placed in a program where the students' difficulties can be properly addressed.  Inclusive education works for some, but not all, and not recognizing this is a huge failing of the school system.  There needs to be an opportunity within reach for students with severe disturbances to be removed from a system that can not help them.  There needs to be an opportunity for educators to participate in identifying young people who have severe emotional or chemical imbalance, and schools where these students can go to both learn and get the treatment they need.  There is this politically correct notion that everyone can fit in and belong, but it's simply not true.  Some people need to be institutionalized to protect themselves and society.

I was recently talking to a teacher who told me of an extremely disturbed student in her class - the behavior he exhibits is highly, highly dangerous to himself and fellow students.  The actions the teacher witnessed and described to me were so outside the realm of healthy behavior that I was shaken.  The school system sent an agent in to assess the child.  The agent observed the child for less than a half hour, with absolutely no interaction with the child, and upon leaving, the agent told this teacher that as far as he was concerned the child did not need a teaching aid, or to be taught differently than any of the other students.  Treatment is too expensive to be dolled out.  This teacher was nearly in tears as she told me she was left alone, with nearly thirty students and this one child who at the very least would grow to live a very unhappy, lonely adult life, and at very worst become one of those young men who make the news for lashing out.

When I hear about a young man like Seung-Hui, all I can think is that I've met kids just like him.  Kids I know will end up doing violent, horrible things - maybe in the privacy of their homes to people who will suffer it in silence, or in a grand media splashed public event.  I've know people so mentally ill that both they and society would benefit from their placement in a mental health facility for as long as it takes to make their conditions manageable in significant concrete ways, even if that day never comes.  But we don't do that.  We wait for kids like this to act out in worse and worse ways, waiting for them to get caught doing something criminal so we can finally toss them in the justice system.  A frustrated teacher, physically assaulted by a student once asked me "what does it take?  Does a kid have to kill someone now for anything to be done?"

This is not at all to excuse this horrific act.  No matter how unhealthy the person, they do not get a free pass.  But what I am saying is the problem is deeply systemic.
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theinevitable

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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2007, 10:52:53 pm »

So... what exactly did he do, prior to this, that singled him out as particularly imbalanced? I've read the stories he wrote that were so "shocking," and quite frankly... they tell me nothing. Lots of people write creepily violent stories-- some of them make lots of money at doing this. He harassed girls? This (depressingly) goes on so much that not much notice was taken, apparently. It seems to me that a lot of the stuff we're hearing is a clear example of hindsight being 20/20, you know?

Or am I missing something?
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jaydub

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Re: Massacre at Virginia Tech
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2007, 11:34:19 pm »

No, I don't think you're missing anything, other than a personal observation of the situation that one of the professors has described for the media.  Certainly, if someone had a look at some of the stuff I've written over the years, and used it as a sole judge for determining my potential for (acting out?) they'd have put me into the cell next to Mr Cho.  On the other hand, none of my teachers (as far as I can tell) would have looked at my overall behavior and said "If we don't lock jay-dub up, he's going to terrify his classmates so much they won't come to class."

I think, perhaps, we as a society need to treat teachers as the professionals that they are.  They interact with their students in an intimate way day in and day out.  When one has an opinion about the relative risk of a student, any administrative confirmation of that opinion would probably be better served deciding whether that teacher is biased unfairly against the student (which certainly happens).  Some penny-pinching pinhead from the district office watching the student for 30min cannot possibly form a valid opinion, unless Junior takes that moment to begin his 15 minutes of fame.

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