The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: Nabubrush on July 02, 2007, 10:45:44 pm
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"Scoot, you did a heckuva job." (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cia_leak_trial)
I can't say I'm terribly surprised, but I guess I'm a little disappointed. Someone commented on another site (paraphrased) that the republican presidential candidates are probably all saying "Jeez, George, you're killing us out there!"
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It truly is bizzare, why even go through the sham of having him prosecuted in the first place? I guess they're counting on the american electorate's five minute attention span.
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Stuff like this makes me really really mad. I am on some strong downers right now and still really pissed. Mainly because if the government came in right now I would face about 2 1/2 years and I would actually have to serve my time, you know, for that crime that doesn't hurt anyone.
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Yes, because when you buy drugs, that money goes to kitten cuddling charities.
So corrupt. It's time for your country to have a nice, sexy president. I mean just look at them. George would cum in your eye, but Obama? No. He'd be polite about a thing.
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Bill would cum in your eye... but he would convince you that you loved it before he left.
God, I miss that big ol' stoner.
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Yes, because when you buy drugs, that money goes to kitten cuddling charities.
Actually, the drug money I have generally goes to an old dude who doesn't use his prescription (edit: well, I am supporting pharmaceutical companies, is that maybe your point?) or some stoner who grows really good plants in Colorado. And, that is a circular argument (if drugs were legal the bad guys wouldn't be making money, etc.blahblahblah). Also, it is pretty hard to say who the bad guys are in drug producing countries. Instead of the puppet on the left and right, they have the guys who are going to kill you or run your life on the left and right. The worst S American (I assume this is who you are talking about?) killers were far right dictators. Some supported by various countries(mine), others supported by N. American and European drug users(me, so it evens out), monetarily of course. In the past I have admitted to bringing this up to much, but in this situation it is at least some what valid. I mean, there is even loads of hypocrisy within drug laws. Look no further than Crack vs. Cocaine penalties. If you are rich it isn't as bad?
Here is just one more argument: I am required to pay taxes, and my government has killed more civilians than any drug dealing syndicate, so would you condemn me for paying my taxes in the same manner?
Anyhow, it is still bullshit. This just does what bad laws (cough) started, making the validity of our hypocritical government disappear everyday.
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Yes, because when you buy drugs, that money goes to kitten cuddling charities.
So corrupt. It's time for your country to have a nice, sexy president. I mean just look at them. George would cum in your eye, but Obama? No. He'd be polite about a thing.
Don't buy into the whole "drug money supports terrorists" scam - that's basically just to snow you. Shit, shopping at Wal-Mart supports more human rights abuses than buying weed does. And as Keith says, it's a circular argument. If drugs were legal, the growers would get more of the money. However, our government is at least quasi-legal, and look at what they've managed to pull off in terms of torture, human-rights abuses, false imprisonment and murder. It's good to be the king!
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Bush on never granting a stay of execution while governor of Texas:
I don’t believe my role [as governor] is to replace the verdict of a jury with my own, unless there are new facts or evidence of which a jury was unaware, or evidence that the trial was somehow unfair.
(source (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060957921/ref=sib_dp_pt/105-1747894-2846066#))
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George Bush about Karla Faye Tucker, a woman on Texas' death row whom he declined to pardon or commute the sentence of:
In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them", he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, 'What would you say to Governor Bush?'" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "'Please,'" Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "'don't kill me.'" I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking.
source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker)
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What's the validity of the comparison here? That he should've considered clemency for an ax swinging murderer as well?
I'm not big on the idea of clemency for either of them. Scoot took the position of fall guy, he needs to pay the toll.
I didn't make the comparison, so this is second hand, but I think the point is Bush is acting inconsistently and hypocritically. If he's going to respect the findings of courts and juries, he should always respect the findings of courts and juries. If he's not going to listen to protestors or friends of the defendant, he should never listen to such folks. He shouldn't change his behavior when the defendant is a wealthy, powerful friend of his instead of a poor nobody.
I'm not saying Karla Faye Tucker should have been pardoned or her death sentence commuted. I know next to nothing about the case. I just find George Bush's behavior exceptionally offensive in this case in light of his stated philosophy. Of course, it shouldn't surprise anyone coming from a man who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus yet supports torture.
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yeah, ok, the sneering and mocking of a person who was going to be killed by the state basically has made me lose my last shred of respect for that man.
the days of "he means well, he's just incompetent" are over.
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Sheesh... Keith...I said the money goes to kitten cuddling... I was joking. References to kitten cuddling are meant to be silly... I thought that was... obvious? Kittens, dude. Kittens. Lighten up. You are clearly not taking the right drugs. Relax. Don't waste your time getting in a huff imagining "circular arguments" I'm not even making. If you had been paying any attention to any of my previous posts on drug use, you would have noticed that I am and have always been on the pro-legalization side of things. I was making fun of you because you have made yet another of your "I do drugs!" posts. Good for you. You're so cute when you do that. Cute like a kitten in need of cuddling. So, you know, I'll send Linnea your way, and she'll rub your tummy until you're purring and batting around a catnip penis. Okay?
Anyway, it is good to hear you are trying to be ethical in your drug purchasing. More people should be. Locally (and I mean, right across the street, down the block and on my corner) drugs are dealt by gang members, and buying from these young men feeds directly into a gang economy that is destroying the lives of many young people in my neighbourhood, and the neighbourhood itself. Innocent bystanders are getting shot, kids as young and 8 are being recruited, meth labs are blowing up, and young girls in their early teens are being pimped. It's a travesty. I was walking down my street and kids had drawn on the street in chalk - cute butterflies, Spongebob, and gang insignia. WTF? Indeed if people were free to grow their own or purchase legally, much of this economy would fold.
In my salad days, I bought from hazy sources that no doubt fed into these economies, so I am as guilty as anyone. Personally I found it next to impossible to know where what I was buying was coming from, nor did I really want to know. You say you're being ethical, so who am I to judge? I never even tried to be ethical. My personal experience in this and in life in genearl is that it's far easier to be inethical. That is why Wal-Mart has so many customers. If things were legalized, or even better, decriminalized, the option to buy ethically would be far more available.
As to paying taxes: If you don't support your government, take action to create change, and/or leave the country. I don't understand why so little action has been taken to impeach Bush. I mean, isn't he around a gagillion (statistical fact!) times more terrible than Clinton ever was? I just don't get it.
Also, Nabu, love - I wasn't referring to a drugs = funding terrorism argument. Not at all. That wasn't even on the radar , nor is it a concept I even mildly agree with. I think the "funding terrorists" argument has been wholly dismissed in Canada, as I've only seen it in American media anyway. Recently leaked Canadian government documents identify Aboriginal groups as terrorist threats to the country. I am considered a potential terrorist in my country's eyes, so... Gah... I don't know, buy more drugs from Canada! Maybe, somehow the money will find it's way back to me! Maybe I'll get a government check, and then we'll have a party!
If you assume, you make an ass of you and me. Kisses.
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Also, Nabu, love - I wasn't referring to a drugs = funding terrorism argument. Not at all. That wasn't even on the radar , nor is it a concept I even mildly agree with. I think the "funding terrorists" argument has been wholly dismissed in Canada, as I've only seen it in American media anyway. Recently leaked Canadian government documents identify Aboriginal groups as terrorist threats to the country. I am considered a potential terrorist in my country's eyes, so... Gah... I don't know, buy more drugs from Canada! Maybe, somehow the money will find it's way back to me! Maybe I'll get a government check, and then we'll have a party!
If you assume, you make an ass of you and me. Kisses.
I'm sorry. I knee-jerked. But at least it got you to call me 'love'.
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I didn't make the comparison, so this is second hand, but I think the point is Bush is acting inconsistently and hypocritically. If he's going to respect the findings of courts and juries, he should always respect the findings of courts and juries. If he's not going to listen to protestors or friends of the defendant, he should never listen to such folks. He shouldn't change his behavior when the defendant is a wealthy, powerful friend of his instead of a poor nobody.
I'm not saying Karla Faye Tucker should have been pardoned or her death sentence commuted. I know next to nothing about the case. I just find George Bush's behavior exceptionally offensive in this case in light of his stated philosophy. Of course, it shouldn't surprise anyone coming from a man who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus yet supports torture.
Dammit, AW, I could not have said it better myself. Tiny can for a succinct argument.
So, you know, I'll send Linnea your way, and she'll rub your tummy until you're purring and batting around a catnip penis. Okay?
Why do you give my dreams away?::weeps::
Dude, there are more than enough tummy rubs to go around. Also, I am thanking God right now because I have a happy, healthy Lennybruce and Mi-wan to pet and give tummy rubs to. They are both doing so well.
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As usual, AW said it better than I could. I think there's also a level of visceral repulsion at the level to which Bush fell about the Tucker case -- she probably didn't deserve clemency, but nobody deserves to be viciously mocked by the government that is supposed to consider your case soberly.
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I can't decide if it is better or worse that he did it after she was dead.
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Speaking of the arguments Keith brought up, I hate the PSAs that are on television about how buying drugs supports terrorism. Like smells said, some of them do, but why not remind Americans that diamonds finance terrorism? Hm, I bet that DeBeers would have a lot to say about that. If I ever get
married engaged again, I'll ask my lucky fella to get me a cubic zirconia instead. I wonder if platinum, palladium, and gold are mined in similar cruelty as diamonds?
I can't decide if it is better or worse that he did it after she was dead.
Agreed, Nabu.
As usual, though, I fail to be surprised at the hypocritical workings of the current administration. Scooter gets pardoned thanks to cronyism, but regular folks do not. Sorry, poor Americans! You don't have money. Go fight a war for us.
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Did he do this in the Rose Garden?
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If I ever get married again
Wait, don't you mean engaged? I must be forgetting an important story.
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If I ever get married again, I'll ask my lucky fella to get me a cubic zirconia instead.
For the price of a diamond, I'd imagine you could purchase a fairly large ruby. Perhaps even fashion an amulet! No one would dare cross you, if you wore jewelry that would appear to sport the ability to bend time and space to your whim!
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Sorry about the drug post again. I was, you know, high.
Anyhow, it is a pretty important issue to me and all. Also, there are no gangs in my area, but in my sniffing days I definitely gave my money to some bad people, so I mean I am not going to act totally high and mighty, but hopefully those days are behind me.
I don't shop at Wal-Mart either. A couple years ago I used to steal from them on principle, but I have put that behind me too.
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Story time:
I used to work at Wal-Mart as many are aware. I will not get into the illegal activities I may or may not have partaken in during my days working there. But needless to say I was very invested in bringing them down from the inside. Very covert. Never caught. Never to list here. After getting a job else where I've boycotted the place ever since. But let me tell you about my final act, as... it's more on the gray side of the law:
The straw that broke the camels back and drove me to quit was when my grandmother was dying of cancer. She was litterally in the hospital dying. I had asked for a couple weekends off to spend time with her and the family. I asked my Supervisor's supervisor, not to go over her head, but because her supervisor was the one who actually made the schedule. I normally worked every weekend, but Her supervisor had previously told me I could have a couple weekends off if I wanted them, so I asked for them. I came in one day, and the schedule showed that I had the following two weekends off. The next shift, I came in and the schedule had been changed so that I was again working both weekends. I asked my supervisor about it and she denied I ever had those weekends off or that I would ever get a weekend off because everyone else in the department had seniority. This was her standard passive aggressive style of managing. I tried to explain why her supervisor had scheduled me for the weekends off, but it was emotionally charged and I was near tears, and in her usual, horrible fashion, my supervisor just walked away instead of discussing things. So I did work those weekends, and on the second one, my parents came home to tell me my grandma had died. I gave my notice. I took my grievance day, followed by my vacation time, which left me with three days before I was gone for good.
On my final day, people started giving me farewell cards, which was interesting because I mostly hated the people I worked with... I mean there were a few friends, but in my department I hated everyone who I was working with. Everyone else in my department were very bitter lifers. One lady in my department presented me with a card my intire department had signed, and informed me my supervisor was "expecting" a thank-you card for "all the work" she had done for me, especially since I'd given my notice "so suddenly." I smiled and nodded.
As my final act, I walked to the card department, found the most expensive thank-you card I could find, made it out to my supervisor and left it in her mail box. Note how I never approached a cash register. I remember thinking how lovely it was - that she would be the one actually stealing it if she left the store with it.
Anyway... I am proud of the things I have done to Wal-Mart, but I can't list those things here. Some of them... could get me in trouble.
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Wait, don't you mean engaged? I must be forgetting an important story.
Fuck, you're right. I'm going to edit it with a strikethrough. I NEVER MARRIED THE DOUCHE, JUST ENGAGED.
However...technically we were because we signed a notarized affidavit stating that we were common law married so I could get health insurance through his employer. If anyone ever found it, I'd have to get a real divorce from him before remarrying. However, it was never filed with any county clerk, it was just on file with his employer, so I think I"m safe to remarry whenever I want.
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Hell, just go on collecting your man-harem. :)
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man-harem
Hell yes.
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Dammit, AW, I could not have said it better myself. Tiny can for a succinct argument.
As usual, AW said it better than I could.
Why thank you both. Of course, I am in the succinct, convincing argument business, so it's all in a day's work.
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Why thank you both. Of course, I am in the succinct, convincing argument business, so it's all in a day's work.
From here on out, can I just send you my thoughts and ideas and you can post them for me?
Fuck, I probably said that wrong, too.
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From here on out, can I just send you my thoughts and ideas and you can post them for me?
Fuck, I probably said that wrong, too.
Why certainly. And since you're a message board pal, I'll give you a discount rate.
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Keith Olbermann's take on it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN-eGOtBGbg)
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Hot damn. I just found a new show to program into the DVR.
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That Olbermann is a sassy fellow.
I love reading about american politics, it's my number 1 time waster when I'm not busy at work.
You guys just take it so gosh-darn seriously, it's adorable.
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I've felt a little bit bad for Tony Snow lately, having to be the spokesperson for King George and President Cheney.
That part about feeling bad for Tony Snow? Ended as soon as I read this today:
Surveying the scene, Snow declares himself "proud" of the president, a man who "believes pardons and commutations should reflect a genuine determination to strengthen the rule of law and increase public faith in government."
Do we live in the fuck*ng BIZARRO UNIVERSE NOW?
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Surveying the
scene carnage, Snow declares himself "proud" of the president, a man who "believes pardons and commutations should reflect a genuine determination to strengthen the rule of law and increase public faith in government."
Just dialled that in a touch, there.
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Thanks.
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Do we live in the fuck*ng BIZARRO UNIVERSE NOW?
Don't forget, Tony Snow came straight over from Fox News. The Kool-Aid has long run through his veins.
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Oh, I'm aware of Mr. Snow's background. It just seems like Bush has spit in the face of an entire country with the Libby decision, and now that Bush is finished with us, here comes Tony Snow to give us a facial too.
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I'm not that pissed about Bush pardoning Libby, if it happens. Two and a half years in jail seems like an overly long sentence to me. I generally don't think that people who have been convicted of nonviolent crimes should be put in jail for that long period. I certainly think he deserves some kind of jail time, but I don't think that he should be serving a sentence that represents the judgment of a collective group of people.
What pisses me off is how many other people have done fairly treasonous things, and they're not even on trial. Frankly, if Bush's pardon of Libby brings closer scrutiny of the administration's involvement in the Plame affair, I say bring it on, because the worst guys in this case do not seem to be on trial. Where are Card and Rove and all the other evildoers in this? How have they escaped judgement?
Then again, I am not terrifically well-informed on this case.
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I don't think that he should be serving a sentence that represents the judgment of a collective group of people.
???
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???
As in, I think that the judge's harsh sentence (it was almost a year more than the recommended sentence) reflected the consensus on the actions of the administration rather than Libby's actions specifically - punishing him for the sins of Cheney, Rove, and Card in addition to his own.
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Here's the thing, though, Rumjay... that's the closest anyone's ever going to get to punishing these fuck*ng bastards and jackals.
Putting the vice president's assistant in jail for two years. That was the closest we were ever gonna get. Judge knew it, that's why he threw the book at the little snakeman.
And even that... erased with the flick of a pen.
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I understand that if he gets a full pardon he cannot hide behind the fifth, as he would be able to if he only had the sentence commuted - but I probably screwed that up.
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I like the new twist, which I learned on Olbermann (thanks, Nabu!), which is that there's a chance the judge can't even give him the probation now, because the probation may have to follow a prison sentence, and with no prison sentence, the prerequisite is no longer there. The fine may be all we get from him. And as they mentioned on this same show, when you are given a fine like that, and you can have it paid in two hours, how painful is it really?
It's crazy to think that after six years, Bush STILL hasn't figured out how to use the tools at his disposal without jacking it up.
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I thought my rose garden comment was very funny. What, no Lynn Anderson fans here?
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Here's the thing, though, Rumjay... that's the closest anyone's ever going to get to punishing these fuck*ng bastards and jackals.
Putting the vice president's assistant in jail for two years. That was the closest we were ever gonna get. Judge knew it, that's why he threw the book at the little snakeman.
And even that... erased with the flick of a pen.
Yeahhhh, I understand that, but it's not fair or just to make one man pay for the misdeeds of a collective group. I think that making someone a scapegoat and punishing them "extra" for things that they didn't do is not much more just than the fact that the other individuals got away with it.
I don't see how being unfair to one man in particular is going to make that fact better. His life has been ruined (as well it should have been - that is his true punishment other than jail, the shame), and he will spend some time away from his family in a terrible place. In contrast to Cheney, Rove, and Card, who come out relatively unscathed and really did most of the worst treachery, how is the extra misery of another year in jail upon the ruination of Libby's life really making all that right? He did some terrible things, but it's not fair to rub his face as a way of paying penance for letting all the others off.
The Bush administration has no sense of justice. Why should we follow their example as a response to it?
Additionally, I think Bush would be less pressured to pardon him if he were punished more fairly, and he would be more likely to serve at least some of the time that he deserves to serve.
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I don't see how being unfair to one man in particular is going to make that fact better. His life has been ruined (as well it should have been - that is his true punishment other than jail, the shame), and he will spend some time away from his family in a terrible place.
This does not match up to my understanding of the way things work for people in power in the US.
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This does not match up to my understanding of the way things work for people in power in the US.
To say the least.
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This does not match up to my understanding of the way things work for people in power in the US.
Well, duh. Especially in the Bush administration.
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Well, duh. Especially in the Bush administration.
But aren't you the same RMJ that I responded to?
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Mr. David Hicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hicks) was a guest of Mr. Bush's government for over twice as long as Scooter would have been and the crime he was charged with wasn't even on the books when he was arrested.
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but it's not fair or just to make one man pay for the misdeeds of a collective group.
You don't dance with the devil and then complain later when there's hoof scuffs on your shoes.
Dude conspired with bald-faced sociopaths. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
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But aren't you the same RMJ that I responded to?
I'm talking about the way it should be. Of course politicians do horrible things to get ahead; they all do. But I don't think that should entitle the judicial system to victimize one man for that skullduggery.
I'm responding as an idealist, I guess. I know that they don't work that way, but Lewis should be judged for his individual role instead of acting as a release valve for the country's anger over the collected crimes of this administration (in the Plame affair at least), which is what LFM seemed to be suggesting - to me, at least.
You don't dance with the devil and then complain later when there's hoof scuffs on your shoes.
Dude conspired with bald-faced sociopaths. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
I am sure that he deserves two and a half years at the least for his misdeeds while in the Bush administration, so, you're right, it's karmically right. But I believe that as long as we're going to judge the sins of the Bush administration, we should hold the system to the highest ethical standards. It means nothing if we seek revenge on them by corrupting our own system even further.
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As in, I think that the judge's harsh sentence (it was almost a year more than the recommended sentence) reflected the consensus on the actions of the administration rather than Libby's actions specifically - punishing him for the sins of Cheney, Rove, and Card in addition to his own.
Still, that's quite a running jump from what you consider too much jail
time to...no jail time at all. Wouldn't you agree?
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Whoa.
About three years ago I used to be crazy interested in news. I made a conscious decision to stop that, and now I read little to no news. My life is better this way, I am tuned in to "the truth", which doesn't have anything to do with daily news, but more history/ analysis after the fact and my own consciousness. Anyhow, I say this because I don't know the whole Libby deal as well as I should, but think I have a decent understanding. I am saying ALL this because the guy who leaked testimony to journalists in the MLB Balco (steroid) case made a plea for two years time. The judge says that it is too lenient and a new 2year 9 month sentence is pending. Bedsides the fact that I recall hearing that Libby leaked the info after it was already known to some reporters (who had yet to print it) (?) and the guy in the Balco case representing the Balco defendents I don't know what exactly is different. They are very similar.
source: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2927153
Edit: Third comment on the story: " 'felt it was his civic duty...' WHAT?? The guy leaked testimony and then blamed the government for the leaks in an attempt to get the case against his client thrown out. That isn't civic duty, that's illegal conduct that deserves a jail sentence. Maybe the guy can appeal to the President for a pardon - he doesn't have much respect for the judicial system either..."
So maybe that first thing is what makes it different? That isn't in the story at all, though.
Edit 2: Alright, so Libby got convicted for lying to a grand jury about when/ whether he leaked info, not the actually leaking of the info? Still doesn't really affect the harshness of the sentence in my opinion. They are both in the action of the same crime, only Libby's was way more important.
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Still, that's quite a running jump from what you consider too much jail
time to...no jail time at all. Wouldn't you agree?
Uh, I have specifically said on many occasions that I think he deserves jail time, and probably a lot of it at that, but I think that he should be punished for the crimes he has been tried for. He deserves due process of the law, and if they can only prove that he withheld information about leaking, then that's what he should be punished for.
As for parallels with the Balco case....Libby didn't leak any information, but lied about the source of the leak. His crime was much different - he lied under oath, and this guy leaked confidential information. Which is different - he is guilty more of a cover-up than of the original crime. I think that we should give sentences based on what has been proven in a court of law, and not what we think really happened. And if the sentence had been more appropriate, there would have been less pressure for Bush to commute/pardon Libby, and he would have actually served some of his time.
You might have a point with your second edit. Regardless, I think 30 months is harsh - for the BALCO leaker and Libby. I don't think that jail time is the most effective punishment of nonviolent crimes. But I'm not disagreeing with anyone on whether or not he deserves jail, because he 100% does deserve to do some time, and I would much rather see him serve 30 months than nothing at all.
I always said, I think Libby should be in jail and that Bush should not pardon/commute his sentence. I'm mainly saying that I'm way way way more pissed that we have allowed this administration to basically get away with more significant offenses on the part of Rove, Cheney, Card, Armitage etc. by successfully making Libby into a scapegoat. Libby was not the initial leak; Libby was more involved in covering up the leak, and while he deserves judgment and punishment, other individuals deserve a lot more and a lot worse, and they are free. No public humiliation, they get a nice pension, and no legal stress. That is the real miscarriage of justice to me - the commutation of his sentence is a miscarriage as well, to be sure, but the real travesty is the fact that Richard Armitage, who was Novak's source for the story, will basically ride off into the sunset as a footnote.