The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Arts & Entertainment => Topic started by: KeithHernandez on November 18, 2007, 12:48:00 am
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Anyone know anything about Tennessee Williams? I am reading about some of his stuff and it seems pretty sweet. The reason I am making this topic, though, is because a National (which is a great band, anybody listen to them?) song has the verse/line/whatever "You said, I think I'm like Tennessee Williams/I wait for the click/I wait, but it doesn't kick in." I found a VHS of one of his movies in my house today (no idea how it got there, my roommate would never have that) but don't have a VCR and can't waste time watching it anyways (but can waste time reading and posting about him).
Anyways, the point is for some reason I always knew that Tennessee Williams was from Mississippi, but that was really it. Then, a song by a band that makes zero sense as far as Tennessee Williams goes (I thought it might have been a reference, but someone I talked to in real life said that it didn't mean anything, thanks a lot Side Show), makes me want to watch his stuff real bad. I think it is funny how stuff like this works.
So to make sense out of this:
Are Tennessee Williams plays/movies worth my time/money?
Does anyone like the National?, you should check them out.
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Tennessee Williams stuff was mostly very rad... though often insanely bleak, often deeply Southern and often indirectly about his struggles with being a gay dude in a time when you couldn't admit to such things, about the isolation and ill-ease that came with being a gay dude back in those times.
If those things bother you, you might not like his stuff so much.
I am largely neutral on being the gay and though I am mostly not terribly enamoured with romantically dark visions of Southerness, I do love the bleak. I love the bleak, not the cheap gothy Hot Topic bleak, but that to-the-bone bleak of a guy who dresses in JC Penney slacks but is still fuck*ng bleak to the core.
Bleak that doesn't revel in its bleakness but would wish it away in a second but can't and... as such, has to learn how to deal with that bleakness.
Oh God, do I love that kinda bleak.
Mr. Williams was a pretty rad writer.
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"Waiting for the click" is from Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. The main character, Brick is an alcoholic closeted homosexual, married to Maggie (his hot wife, who can't understand why he just wont bone her - she's the cat in the title). His only real love was a fellow football player who is dead. Brick says he drinks until he feels the click - which in the context of the script can be interpreted as a lot of things - possibly the moment when he is drunk enough to no longer feel his emotional pain, or possibly the moment when he can tolerate everyone else's bullshit, or both, or more. On the particular evening of the play he mentions he's waiting for the click but it's taking longer than usual to come.
I highly suggest reading both A Streetcar Named Desire and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof - they're both very ahead of their time.
The film adaptations of both are excellent and if you haven't seen them you should - they're referenced all the time in other things, and feature some great actors at the peak of their game. However, please note that while the Elizabeth Taylor and Paul Newman film version of Cat is excellent, it greatly waters down the themes of homosexual desire and sexism. Streetcar is also watered down, but... Brando. When you see Streetcar, you realize just how far Brando fell.
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Glass Menagerie's a solid little play as well.
The difficulty with Brando's performance in "Streetcar" is that... like... Stanley isn't really SUPPOSED to be a heartthrob who's just also a prick. He's kinda supposed to be shlubby and vulgar and vile and... it's a testament to the desperation of these sisters that he's in their lives, not a testament to the fact that he's a beefcake who's also a douchenozzle.
I mean, not to take away from the dude's performance but... for the purposes of the original play's vision, old fat crazy Brando would've actually made a lot more sense.
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What? I have to totally disagree with you on that one. Stanley's sexual potency and desirability is a very important part of the script. It's what he and Stella's relationship is about, and it's Blanche's inability to accept her own sexual urges, being caught up in being a "proper southern lady," that makes her so emotionally fragile. Williams clearly depicts Stella as being happy in her marriage because she has thrown off the shackles of the proper woman and enjoys a good fuck*ng. She's forgotten all about being "proper" until her fucked up sister shows up. True he is meant to be a boor, but he was written as a symbol of barely containable male sexuality. Stanley is an unstopable fuck-machine - with all the positive and negative connotations of that intact. Plus, Brando was the original Stanley in the stage version, hand picked by Williams to play the part, so I really doubt this was a case of misscasting.
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Hm. Fair enough.
When I read the script, that wasn't how I read that character at all.
But if Williams chose him by hand (heh heh heh) then I suppose that's definite authorial intent.
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Glass Menagerie's a solid little play as well.
That is the VHS I found. Will watch it over Thanksgiving.
I haven't seen or read anything at all by Mr. Williams, but generally feel that watching is better than reading when it comes to plays. Tell me if I am wrong in this case.
As far as what the National line refers to; that is an awesome thing and generally fits very well with the National's music.
Also, I also very much like the bleak thing, especially the way you phrased it and am from the Southern plains and can really understand the bleak southern view thing, as I think you are meaning. As far as gay thing, well, I typed a lot of stuff here, but basically when it comes to art work by homosexuals I don't really give a fuck if they are gay or not. I kind of look at it as another way they are separated from society, and I generally think the best artists are separated from society a lot.
Also, A Streetcar Named Marge. I have seen that.
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Actually Brando has always been open about enjoying sex with men, well before it was okay to do so. He even had a longterm relationship with another actor named Wally Cox. He's officially quoted as saying he would have married Cox if he could have and when Cox died Brando kept his ashes in his bedroom, and when Brando himself died his own ashes were scattered with Cox's. This is not to say that Brando didn't fuck a lot of ladies, I mean the dude has a litter of kids with a whole bunch of women... But Brando went to Williams' house for the audition is all I'm saying. Williams' says something somewhere about Brando auditioning and "even did some work around the house" or something like that. And if you've ever heard Williams' voice you'd know... well those sort of words take on a whole new meaning coming out of a voice of that particular tone and timber. As far as I'm concern everything that came out of Williams' mouth was veiled innuendo for something else... but that's me. So, yeah, it's sort of unlikely that Brando and Williams didn't have a little somethin' somethin' happening. Hot, revolutionary, thespian action!
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Brando loved Cox.
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Glad I could help - lyrics are so fun to figure out!
Re: Williams' writing style - to elaborate on what LFM is saying, I'd say the most pervasive aspect of all of Williams' work is the fragility of the human spirit. It's perhaps a little less "the world is bleak" and a little more that "we are delicate, breakable, and what sucks is that we break each other."
The Glass Menagerie, though lovely, is sort of a high school intro to Williams. It was his first noted play, and like many first plays, it's very autobiographical. I loved it when I was 16, but it's a sort of cliche theater school thing to have been a teenaged girl who loved that play. I haven't seen either film version of Menagerie, but apparently the more recent one, with John Malcovitch in it is extremely terrible, with some sort of happy ending tacked on.
I agree that seeing a play is better than reading it, but I'd say reading a script is more valuable on some levels than seeing a film version of a play, especially when it comes to a time in history where a lot of the content had to be sanitized to be approved by censors. This applies more to Cat, less to Streetcar. Streetcar is a very important film - Brando's role as Stanley revolutionized acting, stage and film as we know it - he was the breakthrough star of Method acting. Many people believe that Brando as Stanley was an absolute turning point in the world of both acting and film - his performance as Stanley brought about the total acceptance of Method acting and everything that came after this performance has been changed by it. Still, in the film version, the ending - what happens to Blanche to finally tip her over the edge - is only hinted at in a fairly subtle way, and I'm not sure I would even have known what happened unless I'd read the play first. I'm wallowing way too deep into theatre blabber here, so I'll stop.
LFM - I know... Brando wasn't exactly subtle about much, so it seems fitting. I was looking at the picture of Cox in his wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Cox) a few minutes ago, and damn if he doesn't look like Toby Maguire as Peter Parker.
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It is most definitely the older one. I will probably start there and then go forward.
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Wait wait wait. Wally Cox? (http://www.spookytoms.com/TR-WallyCox.JPG)
As in Mr. Peepers? Underdog? That Wally Cox?
Whoa.
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The Glass Menagerie, though lovely, is sort of a high school intro to Williams. It was his first noted play, and like many first plays, it's very autobiographical. I loved it when I was 16, but it's a sort of cliche theater school thing to have been a teenaged girl who loved that play. I haven't seen either film version of Menagerie, but apparently the more recent one, with John Malcovitch in it is extremely terrible, with some sort of happy ending tacked on.
damn, I'm glad I read that before I talked about how much I like The Glass Menagerie. I remember reading that on our senior trip, listening to Minor Threat the whole busride back.
also: For Whom the Southern Belle Tolls is a pretty funny take-off.
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So, apparently The Glass Menagerie is something that a lot of students watch in high school, like as curriculum. In my high school, which was one of the highest ranked public schools in the state in the richest suburb of the state (this is OK, so neither of those are that impressive) in English Lit senior year I watched Shrek and Lord of the Rings. I can't stand LoR, so that was painful, and I actually like Shrek, so, there is that I guess. I mean, that is the only place I have seen either of those, so I guess it is good. Would have been way sweeter to watch Tennessee Williams plays/movies though. Pretty much the only half decent book I read in High School, in class anyways, was The Great Gatsby. I also scored 100 percent on one of those stupid state wide ability test things, so they must not have been expecting too much out of us. (I also scored 100 on the History one, and History and English were the only two we took. It was one the reasons I considered myself smart before I got smart enough to not worry about stuff like that, and that even if you are going to, that is not really the right evidence.)
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Brando loved Cox.
He sure did. (http://static.flickr.com/86/207067533_313309959e_o.jpg)
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I already believed it man. Fuck.
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In my high school, which was one of the highest ranked public schools in the state in the richest suburb of the state (this is OK, so neither of those are that impressive) in English Lit senior year I watched Shrek and Lord of the Rings.
I just became very confused reading this because I had been thinking that Keith was about my age and it seemed preposterous to me that anyone anywhere near my age could possibly have watched these films in high school.
Then I clicked his profile and found out he's only 22 and realized that I must be incredibly old and out of touch because I still think of Shrek and LotR as "new" films, even though both of them have multiple sequels.
Then again, I still think of The Lion King as part of the "New Disney," so maybe this should not come as such a surprise.
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I just became very confused reading this because I had been thinking that Keith was about my age and it seemed preposterous to me that anyone anywhere near my age could possibly have watched these films in high school.
Then I clicked his profile and found out he's only 22 and realized that I must be incredibly old and out of touch because I still think of Shrek and LotR as "new" films, even though both of them have multiple sequels.
Then again, I still think of The Lion King as part of the "New Disney," so maybe this should not come as such a surprise.
<sigh> They say 50 is the new 30. I'm starting to think the reverse is true, as well.
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We're old, jayelle, but at least we're hot.
Must count for something.
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If it means anything to you geezers, I am wasting away my youth doing drugs, going to loud concerts, being poor, having absolutely no responsibility and having uncommitted sex.
Oh, uh, nevermind.
(i am lying unfortunately. Well, kind of, but I have to do other stuff too. Like waste precious weekends writing shit ass papers. Luckily I can party everyday of the week that I have time/money. That is the best part of being young, as far as I see it. Of course, the only reason I have to waste weekends is because I am a horrible procrastinator, so, if I were smarter I could party everyday.)
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yesterday, a lady I am interested in reminisced with her roommates about how they smoked pot every single day of sophomore year. I wasn't sure whether I was supposed to be put off or impressed.
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I don't want to put you off or impress you, but, I am going on, uh, year six of that plan. It is starting to get old. (i am lying again)
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damn, dude.
I just realized that... those girls are your age. Weird.
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Aren't you basically my age? I mean, if you are in college and not a freshmen I basically consider you to be "my age."
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They say 50 is the new 30.
Seriously? What a relief.
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yeah. I mean. I'm 19. 22 seems a lot more grown-up.
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Yeah, some people I know are all getting ready to be bankers at the beginning of the year and stuff, I don't understand that. I guess there is a difference. Ironically the guy who is most looking forward to growing up showed up at my apartment everyday in the summer between 2-3 pm with a Keystone Light or other shit beer in his hand. Then we walked to work after he got drunk enough. However, the people at that complex that are also my age have a projector that we play Mario 3 with projected into the pool, and I recognize with them a lot more, so I guess you can be either grown up or not at 22, but you don't have to be grown up.
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If it means anything to you geezers, I am wasting away my youth doing drugs, going to loud concerts, being poor, having absolutely no responsibility and having uncommitted sex.
So did we. Guess what you have to look forward to?
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more of the same?
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so, I've been thinking about that picture that was posted.
And, man, goddamn. If he wants to do that, why should anyone stop him? He's so happy. That smile is so genuine. It makes me glad.
I am going to show that picture to homophobes, man.
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So did we. Guess what you have to look forward to?
Oh, you're so canned, AW.
Just to put it in perspective for you, Keith and inev, when I was 22, I got married and bought a house. So the idea of inev's friends seeming "grown up" because they have cars and live in apartments seems adorably naive to me. But then, when I look back on what most of my friends were doing at 22, it also makes a lot of sense, because Pedro and I were clearly the exception that proves the rule.
My problem, I think, is that I basically didn't have any fun in college. Actually, I stopped having fun in my senior year of high school because I was taking five AP courses. I did manage to enter college with 24 hours of college credit and graduated a year early. My plan was to do fun stuff after graduation, but...that is a stupid plan.
If I had it to do over again, I would have taken the opportunity to study abroad. That's the big thing I missed that I will not have the opportunity to do now until my kids are considerably older (or possibly grown up and moved out). I went to parties with the kids Pedro did theater with and got drunk and smoked cigarettes and occasionally got naked in public, but it was more of an end-of-semester thing because I was too busy studying and/or working the rest of the time -- including summers.
I grew up a lot sooner than I had to, and even now it's hard to make friends with people my age because most of them are still in that early-career, single or otherwise childless, wine-and-cheese party stage. Of course I have some friends who got knocked up in college and got married, but most people with kids my son's age are older. I was the youngest woman in our childbirth preparation class by about ten years. And I'm pretty sure (although I haven't met them all) I'm younger than all the other moms of little P's classmates.
So even though I'm only chronologically 6 years older than Keith, mentally, I feel much older.
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So even though I'm only chronologically 6 years older than Keith, mentally, I feel much older.
Well, that doesn't really prove anything.
Seriously though, I just want college to end, but I also want to have fun, which I need to stop immediately from now through December 3rd to graduate. This weekend was a good step, but if I could stop reading your peoples posts it would be even better. It is only two weeks, but it is hard to stop because I had a great freshmen year, transferred, had a shitty sophmore year. Had a roommate who got me into trouble Junior year to where I had to live with my parents (when I joined here and generally became addicted to the internet), then moved to a little piece of liberal paradise my traditional Senior year, made a lot of friends and now want to have fun with them before I leave.
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i can basically sum up the reason that I think those particular girls are old as that... they are about to graduate, and I want to date one of them. And a lot of my wanting-to-date related anxiousness is based around the fact that I think that she thinks I am too young. it is pretty apparent to me that this is the case. my friends are all "why haven't we met this chick?" and the majority of that is the "wow, so, this is the dorm you live in. huh. I lived here 2 years ago" factor. I mean, you know how in college senior year seems so far away.
also I am pretty weirded out that people who are that age are doing things like... moving to Charlotte, NC, and starting work at a major national bank headquartered there. I mean, what I am saying is that a guy I met who is a senior is basically becoming My Dad on some level at this young age.
at the same time, I intimidated my friend this age the other day because she asked me what I want to be doing as a career, and I actually had an answer, and she did not know that answer of what she would be doing even next year. I felt kind of bad for, you know, studying something I love which I want to continue to do for the rest of my life? she called it "precious."
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I am 28 years old and I feel like I've been out of college maybe six months, that I am perhaps 21 at best.
I am ever so tentatively getting used to the idea of responsibility. I am still trying to make it in the arts, for God's sake.
I am basically only financially solvent because my girlfriend has a steady job (substitute teacher) and will soon have a steady and good paying job for a person without children (elementary teacher in LAUSD).
If I am to be judged by the 1950s standard of adulthood, I am a wreck of a failure at adulthood. I do not have a house, I do not have a job that could sustain me indefinitely, I am not married. By the old standards of adulthood, I should be five years into building a pension and my children should be in the first grade.
I should be planning for my retirement, not saving my lunch money to buy the latest "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" comic.
And yet here I am.
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A hero to us all.
Often I will tell whoever asks that I want to try living on the street or at least guitar playing/panhandling in San Francisco, it at least makes them go away. But really, maybe I do that because I have absolutely no plans except get the fuck out of Oklahoma.
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Or the opposite, that if the Mayans and Aztecs and so on are correct and there's going to be some kind of massive change/End-of-the-World/end of the world as we know it kinda dealy in December of 2012 then... like... hell, y'know, I'll only be 33 at that point. I would totally be able to walk into the Afterlife and say:
"What? I was supposed to be a success by 33? C'mon now. Seriously. I totally have the excuse here. I did not have enough time."
No problem, you know? Totally indemnified.
Only problem with that would be, y'know, that's when Jesus was crucified too. 33. So if the point of comparison is Jesus, I am screwed but... again, probably as screwed as anyone else would be so... again... indemnified.
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Yeah, I copy the uncertainty of precisely what adulthood means and whether I've terminally fucked it up. I'm 24; when I was in high school, I thought that by now I'd be a secure grad student and married for a year or two. Instead, I broke up a month ago with the dude I was sure I was going to marry, and I'm working on a letter right now asking grad school to extend my leave of absence because I'm such a fuckup.
Goddamn, my life is hateful to me.
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See, my parents have already tried that -- "at 24, I was moving up to Alaska; maybe you need a change of scenery?" I've considered it, but I don't have half the adventurousness in me that my dad has.
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Or the opposite, that if the Mayans and Aztecs and so on are correct and there's going to be some kind of massive change/End-of-the-World/end of the world as we know it kinda dealy in December of 2012 then... like... hell, y'know, I'll only be 33 at that point. I would totally be able to walk into the Afterlife and say:
"What? I was supposed to be a success by 33? C'mon now. Seriously. I totally have the excuse here. I did not have enough time."
No problem, you know? Totally indemnified.
Only problem with that would be, y'know, that's when Jesus was crucified too. 33. So if the point of comparison is Jesus, I am screwed but... again, probably as screwed as anyone else would be so... again... indemnified.
I'll also be 33 in 2012. And back in middle school a ouji board predicted I'd die at 33. Of course I'm also supposed to marry this girl that annoyed the crap out of me in 6th grade and who I haven't seen since 1994.
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Yeah, I copy the uncertainty of precisely what adulthood means and whether I've terminally fucked it up. I'm 24; when I was in high school, I thought that by now I'd be a secure grad student and married for a year or two. Instead, I broke up a month ago with the dude I was sure I was going to marry, and I'm working on a letter right now asking grad school to extend my leave of absence because I'm such a fuckup.
Goddamn, my life is hateful to me.
Enjoy it while you can.
That sounds flippant, but I mean it seriously. You don't get to be a fuckup much longer, take this opportunity to figure out what you want and how to get it.
What you want, I assume, is not to be married to someone who isn't good for you, and not to push yourself so hard to get through grad school that you come out a hollow shell of what you once were.
In that sense, I think you are a rousing success.
I don't regret getting married young, but my life would have been easier if I hadn't. Perhaps less exciting, but certainly better organized. Trying to finish a Master's degree with a toddler and another baby on the way is not a life choice I would recommend to anyone.
Enough crap happens that gets in your way when you only have yourself to worry about. Being married doubles the amount of crap you have to deal with on a daily basis and does not mitigate its impact in the least.
So hang in there like a kitty in a tree. Not being a grownup before you turn thirty is a neat trick if you can pull it off.
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You don't get to be a fuckup much longer
Oh, I dunno, I'd like to see how long I can get away with it.
I'd like to make The Fat Lady sweat on that one.
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Only problem with that would be, y'know, that's when Jesus was crucified too. 33. So if the point of comparison is Jesus, I am screwed but... again, probably as screwed as anyone else would be so... again... indemnified.
No wonder you're dissatisfied with yourself all the time, LFM, if this is a comparison that even occurs to you. Give yourself a break, already!
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I have tried, womb@, I really have tried.
I've tried booze and weed, therapy and anti-depressants, meditation and all kinds of religions... and they've helped but they don't make it go away, they just bring down to a duller roar. I've tried singing and eating good food, I try to fuck as often as I can and all these things do is distract me for a little while. Movies and plays, books and comic books, music and radio, teevee and baseball... and it all only works for an hour or two.
I don't know how not to be hard on myself. I know that I used to not be so hard on myself, when I was a very small kid, but I haven't been able to pull it off for any length of time since I was twelve or thirteen.
I am totally up to suggestions, tho.
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I have tried, womb@, I really have tried.
I've tried booze and weed, therapy and anti-depressants, meditation and all kinds of religions... and they've helped but they don't make it go away, they just bring down to a duller roar. I've tried singing and eating good food, I try to fuck as often as I can and all these things do is distract me for a little while. Movies and plays, books and comic books, music and radio, teevee and baseball... and it all only works for an hour or two.
I don't know how not to be hard on myself. I know that I used to not be so hard on myself, when I was a very small kid, but I haven't been able to pull it off for any length of time since I was twelve or thirteen.
I am totally up to suggestions, tho.
I am sorry to hear about that. It sounds like you've been able to adapt and have a pretty damn good life despite it, though. However, nobody should have to suffer like that. I hope you can find something that works for you.
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Oh, I don't mean that I'm not quite happy a lot of the time. Much of the time, I am. But there is a background noise of dissatisfaction in my life and lack of fulfillment, yeah. I'm haunted by the idea that... given just a few lucky breaks, I could do and accomplish great things. Entertain people and help them be more humane to each other at the same time.
But that the breaks have not come and my psychology has not always been strong enough to follow through on things, despite my knowledge and my intentions and drive. I don't do well with rejection, I don't do well with failure. Pebbles hit in the road feel like boulders to me and I can't help it. I'm prone to headaches and backaches and mania.
Momentum never carries over for long. I dunno. But... in a given hour, in a given minute, I might be very happy indeed.
But what I feel is my potential... I haven't gotten there yet. It hasn't happened yet.
And sometimes it drives me fuck*ng mad, yeah. Yeah.
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Dude, I think what you're suffering from is called "The Human Condition".
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But what I feel is my potential... I haven't gotten there yet. It hasn't happened yet.
Well, as I think I have mentioned before... you can be a writer any time - it's not like you wanted to be an Olympic figure skater and now it's too late. Maybe what you're meant to do is not doable until you have done some more living. You seem to have big ideas, so maybe they need more time to come to ripeness. Maybe there's no way to get there any faster than it's already happening.
But whatever it is that you're meant to do I'm pretty sure it's not being crucified to save the human race, so, dude, give up the unreasonable comparisons.
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I'm tryin', womb@, I'm tryin'.
28 is right around when Mark Twain started gettin' his shit together, as far as my research shows. I figure Mark Twain is still an unhealthy standard to hold oneself up again but not a completely insane standard...
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That is like saying Bob Dylan (lets not get into the hate) recorded two classic records by the time he was my age, so there is no hope. Even he couldn't save the world though.
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Even he couldn't save the world though.
Well, "finding Jesus" and cutting a country album so as to avoid political involvement when the actual trouble was going down definitely helps in the not-saving-the-world-thing.
In the story I'm working on, after the neocons take the country by shattering it to bits, the biggest music act in the land is Country Bob Zimmerman and His Barnhouse Ramblers. The second biggest act is his son's band, Jake Zimmerman and the Wallflowers. They've turned Bowie's song "heroes" into an army recruitment video.
I'm... I'm kind of cracked in the head, you understand.
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I personally enjoy reading scripts, but it's very very different than reading something in narrative form. Probably because I've done a ton of plays and musicals and junk in a different life - I like picturing the play going on in my head as I read; it's very different than the experience I get reading. I guess when reading, mentally I 'get' the story but I don't picture it nearly the same was as I do reading a script. Maybe Mel has a way of putting this into words better.