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[KeithHernandez]

Anyone know anything about Tennessee Williams?  I am reading about some of his stuff and it seems pretty sweet.  The reason I am making this topic, though, is because a National (which is a great band, anybody listen to them?) song has the verse/line/whatever "You said, I think I'm like Tennessee Williams/I wait for the click/I wait, but it doesn't kick in."  I found a VHS of one of his movies in my house today (no idea how it got there, my roommate would never have that) but don't have a VCR and can't waste time watching it anyways (but can waste time reading and posting about him). 

Anyways, the point is for some reason I always knew that Tennessee Williams was from Mississippi, but that was really it.  Then, a song by a band that makes zero sense as far as Tennessee Williams goes (I thought it might have been a reference, but someone I talked to in real life said that it didn't mean anything, thanks a lot Side Show), makes me want to watch his stuff real bad.  I think it is funny how stuff like this works.

So to make sense out of this:

Are Tennessee Williams plays/movies worth my time/money?
Does anyone like the National?, you should check them out.

[littlefallsmets]

Tennessee Williams stuff was mostly very rad... though often insanely bleak, often deeply Southern and often indirectly about his struggles with being a gay dude in a time when you couldn't admit to such things, about the isolation and ill-ease that came with being a gay dude back in those times.

If those things bother you, you might not like his stuff so much.

I am largely neutral on being the gay and though I am mostly not terribly enamoured with romantically dark visions of Southerness, I do love the bleak. I love the bleak, not the cheap gothy Hot Topic bleak, but that to-the-bone bleak of a guy who dresses in JC Penney slacks but is still fuck*ng bleak to the core.

Bleak that doesn't revel in its bleakness but would wish it away in a second but can't and... as such, has to learn how to deal with that bleakness.

Oh God, do I love that kinda bleak.

Mr. Williams was a pretty rad writer.

[side_show]

"Waiting for the click" is from Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.  The main character, Brick is an alcoholic closeted homosexual, married to Maggie (his hot wife, who can't understand why he just wont bone her - she's the cat in the title).  His only real love was a fellow football player who is dead.  Brick says he drinks until he feels the click - which in the context of the script can be interpreted as a lot of things - possibly the moment when he is drunk enough to no longer feel his emotional pain, or possibly the moment when he can tolerate everyone else's bullshit, or both, or more.  On the particular evening of the play he mentions he's waiting for the click but it's taking longer than usual to come.

I highly suggest reading both A Streetcar Named Desire and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof - they're both very ahead of their time.

The film adaptations of both are excellent and if you haven't seen them you should - they're referenced all the time in other things, and feature some great actors at the peak of their game.  However, please note that while the Elizabeth Taylor and Paul Newman film version of Cat is excellent, it greatly waters down the themes of homosexual desire and sexism.  Streetcar is also watered down, but... Brando.  When you see Streetcar, you realize just how far Brando fell.  

[littlefallsmets]

Glass Menagerie's a solid little play as well.

The difficulty with Brando's performance in "Streetcar" is that... like... Stanley isn't really SUPPOSED to be a heartthrob who's just also a prick. He's kinda supposed to be shlubby and vulgar and vile and... it's a testament to the desperation of these sisters that he's in their lives, not a testament to the fact that he's a beefcake who's also a douchenozzle.

I mean, not to take away from the dude's performance but... for the purposes of the original play's vision, old fat crazy Brando would've actually made a lot more sense.

[side_show]

What?  I have to totally disagree with you on that one.  Stanley's sexual potency and desirability is a very important part of the script.  It's what he and Stella's relationship is about, and it's Blanche's inability to accept her own sexual urges, being caught up in being a "proper southern lady," that makes her so emotionally fragile.  Williams clearly depicts Stella as being happy in her marriage because she has thrown off the shackles of the proper woman and enjoys a good fuck*ng.  She's forgotten all about being "proper" until her fucked up sister shows up.  True he is meant to be a boor, but he was written as a symbol of barely containable male sexuality.  Stanley is an unstopable fuck-machine - with all the positive and negative connotations of that intact.  Plus, Brando was the original Stanley in the stage version, hand picked by Williams to play the part, so I really doubt this was a case of misscasting.

[littlefallsmets]

Hm. Fair enough.

When I read the script, that wasn't how I read that character at all.

But if Williams chose him by hand (heh heh heh) then I suppose that's definite authorial intent.

[KeithHernandez]

Glass Menagerie's a solid little play as well.

That is the VHS I found.  Will watch it over Thanksgiving.

I haven't seen or read anything at all by Mr. Williams, but generally feel that watching is better than reading when it comes to plays.  Tell me if I am wrong in this case.

As far as what the National line refers to; that is an awesome thing and generally fits very well with the National's music.

Also, I also very much like the bleak thing, especially the way you phrased it and am from the Southern plains and can really understand the bleak southern view thing, as I think you are meaning.  As far as gay thing, well, I typed a lot of stuff here, but basically when it comes to art work by homosexuals I don't really give a fuck if they are gay or not.  I kind of look at it as another way they are separated from society, and I generally think the best artists are separated from society a lot.


Also,  A Streetcar Named Marge.  I have seen that.

[side_show]

Actually Brando has always been open about enjoying sex with men, well before it was okay to do so.  He even had a longterm relationship with another actor named Wally Cox.  He's officially quoted as saying he would have married Cox if he could have and when Cox died Brando kept his ashes in his bedroom, and when Brando himself died his own ashes were scattered with Cox's.  This is not to say that Brando didn't fuck a lot of ladies, I mean the dude has a litter of kids with a whole bunch of women... But Brando went to Williams' house for the audition is all I'm saying.  Williams' says something somewhere about Brando auditioning and "even did some work around the house" or something like that.  And if you've ever heard Williams' voice you'd know... well those sort of words take on a whole new meaning coming out of a voice of that particular tone and timber.  As far as I'm concern everything that came out of Williams' mouth was veiled innuendo for something else... but that's me.  So, yeah, it's sort of unlikely that Brando and Williams didn't have a little somethin' somethin' happening.  Hot, revolutionary, thespian action!

[littlefallsmets]

Brando loved Cox.

[side_show]

Glad I could help - lyrics are so fun to figure out!

Re: Williams' writing style - to elaborate on what LFM is saying, I'd say the most pervasive aspect of all of Williams' work is the fragility of the human spirit.  It's perhaps a little less "the world is bleak" and a little more that "we are delicate, breakable, and what sucks is that we break each other."

The Glass Menagerie, though lovely, is sort of a high school intro to Williams.  It was his first noted play, and like many first plays, it's very autobiographical.  I loved it when I was 16, but it's a sort of cliche theater school thing to have been a teenaged girl who loved that play.  I haven't seen either film version of Menagerie, but apparently the more recent one, with John Malcovitch in it is extremely terrible, with some sort of happy ending tacked on.    

I agree that seeing a play is better than reading it, but I'd say reading a script is more valuable on some levels than seeing a film version of a play, especially when it comes to a time in history where a lot of the content had to be sanitized to be approved by censors.  This applies more to Cat, less to Streetcar.  Streetcar is a very important film - Brando's role as Stanley revolutionized acting, stage and film as we know it - he was the breakthrough star of Method acting.  Many people believe that Brando as Stanley was an absolute turning point in the world of both acting and film - his performance as Stanley brought about the total acceptance of Method acting and everything that came after this performance has been changed by it.  Still, in the film version, the ending - what happens to Blanche to finally tip her over the edge - is only hinted at in a fairly subtle way, and I'm not sure I would even have known what happened unless I'd read the play first.  I'm wallowing way too deep into theatre blabber here, so I'll stop.

LFM - I know... Brando wasn't exactly subtle about much, so it seems fitting.  I was looking at the picture of Cox in his wiki a few minutes ago, and damn if he doesn't look like Toby Maguire as Peter Parker. 

[KeithHernandez]

It is most definitely the older one.  I will probably start there and then go forward.

[AugustWest]

Wait wait wait.  Wally Cox? 

As in Mr. Peepers?  Underdog?  That Wally Cox?

Whoa.

[theinevitable]

The Glass Menagerie, though lovely, is sort of a high school intro to Williams.  It was his first noted play, and like many first plays, it's very autobiographical.  I loved it when I was 16, but it's a sort of cliche theater school thing to have been a teenaged girl who loved that play.  I haven't seen either film version of Menagerie, but apparently the more recent one, with John Malcovitch in it is extremely terrible, with some sort of happy ending tacked on.   

damn, I'm glad I read that before I talked about how much I like The Glass Menagerie. I remember reading that on our senior trip, listening to Minor Threat the whole busride back.

also: For Whom the Southern Belle Tolls is a pretty funny take-off.

[KeithHernandez]

So, apparently The Glass Menagerie is something that a lot of students watch in high school, like as curriculum.  In my high school, which was one of the highest ranked public schools in the state in the richest suburb of the state (this is OK, so neither of those are that impressive) in English Lit senior year I watched Shrek and Lord of the Rings.  I can't stand LoR, so that was painful, and I actually like Shrek, so, there is that I guess.  I mean, that is the only place I have seen either of those, so I guess it is good.  Would have been way sweeter to watch Tennessee Williams plays/movies though.  Pretty much the only half decent book I read in High School, in class anyways, was The Great Gatsby.  I also scored 100 percent on one of those stupid state wide ability test things, so they must not have been expecting too much out of us.  (I also scored 100 on the History one, and History and English were the only two we took.  It was one the reasons I considered myself smart before I got smart enough to not worry about stuff like that, and that even if you are going to, that is not really the right evidence.)

[Limmo]

Brando loved Cox.

He sure did.