The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Achewood => Achewood => Topic started by: oball on August 19, 2008, 08:42:35 am
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Permalink (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=08192008).
I kind of want to read The Kid Who Arrested Metallica!
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I am so disappointed in Philippe's mom. She seemed so nice!
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I am so disappointed in Philippe's mom. She seemed so nice!
Nah, I personally have always taken 'not the buckle' to be canon.
Anyway isn't there a thing where if someone is at a certain stage of decrepitude we just take their x-isms in stride and say 'oh they belong to a different generation'.
The bit about Phillipe's mom yanking him and sending him somewhere worse further deepens the mystery that is Phillipe's place in the world of Achewood.
I will learn THE TRUTH ABOUT WHEN HIPPOS PEE.
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Nah, I personally have always taken 'not the buckle' to be canon.
Yep, I always found it a bit mystifying that Phillipe would be so worried about sin and thinking dirty thoughts and so on; that reeks of early indoctrination.
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When hippos poop, they squirt it all over the place to mark their territory. I don't remember anything about pee.
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When hippos poop, they squirt it all over the place to mark their territory. I don't remember anything about pee.
Education.
The fries I ate for lunch yesterday could've used some sin. Or Old Bay.
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Yeah, when that hippos tail starts to spinnin' it's time to haul ass out of the hippo enclosure.
I found this out the hard way.
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Yeah, when that hippos tail starts to spinnin' it's time to haul ass out of the hippo enclosure.
I found this out the hard way.
Something I would have preferred to read at pretty much any time other than just after having eaten lunch and already feeling uncomfortably full.
Hippo are awesome though - saw plenty when I was in Tanzania last year. Bloody lethal animals considering they're herbivores...
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Yeah, when that hippos tail starts to spinnin' it's time to haul ass out of the hippo enclosure.
I found this out the hard way.
Pictures or it never happened.
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Not only is Onstad not making this up, he's not exaggerating either. http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp?wpc=tractlist.asp&wpp=a (http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp?wpc=tractlist.asp&wpp=a)
I just read the one about how Roman Catholics are evil and all going to hell.
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Not only is Onstad not making this up, he's not exaggerating either. http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp?wpc=tractlist.asp&wpp=a (http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp?wpc=tractlist.asp&wpp=a)
I just read the one about how Roman Catholics are evil and all going to hell.
First time you ever saw a Chick Tract?
HAW HAW HAW!!!
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Oops!
A young man goofs when he is talked out of receiving Jesus as Saviour. Adapted for Black audices.
Death Cookie, The
Introduces Catholics to the real Bread of Life, Jesus Christ.
Sissy?, The
Duke thought Jesus was a sissy, until a trucker explained to him the horrible price Jesus paid so his sins could be forgiven. Then Duke saw that Jesus had more guts than anyone who ever lived. Great for truckers and bikers!
Unwelcome Guest, The
Larry thought becoming a Mason would help him in business. But when he took the oath, he picked up something he didn't plan on.
so good.
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I will never get the whole "Catholics are going to hell" thing. Last I checked that's the church that Jesus specifically started. Do these people think he just started it as like a joke or some kind of test? I don't get this at all.
Also, I Don't Want To Be Elfstar Any More. I Want To Be More Breakfast!
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I mean, it is not exactly a matter of absolute historical record that jesus said "hey, you guys, you go pick a pope and be my church. make people confess their sins and take communion. Also, have a lot of stuff about my Mom in there."
Like, it was founded by the disciples, right? My understanding is that Catholics are heading to Hellfire because the catholic church focuses so much on ritual and stuff that isn't anywhere in the bible, rather than having a personal relationship with jesus, etc. The whole Protestantism split was based on this, right? Luther deciding that Catholics weren't following Jesus' teachings?
I find the catholic church compelling, Religion should definitely have heck of ritual associated with it. Lots of chanting and stuff.
mostly because I get it from both sides in exciting, ethnic ways-- spanish catholics to the left of me, irish catholics to the right.
(here I am, lapsed in the middle with you)
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I will never get the whole "Catholics are going to hell" thing. Last I checked that's the church that Jesus specifically started. Do these people think he just started it as like a joke or some kind of test? I don't get this at all.
Well... if Jesus was a beach ball in 1517, you would have seen a scene where Martin Luther just mad ran with it under his arm to a new beach, and lots of people ran away with him, and soon lots of people had their own balls which they swear it's the official one.
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Well... if Jesus was a beach ball in 1517, you would have seen a scene where Martin Luther just mad ran with it under his arm to a new beach, and lots of people ran away with him.
I guess the main reason I'm confused (other than the obvious "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.") is the one-sided seething hatred. Like these tracts seem to say that catholics are like Hitler times Vlad the Impaler, but the catholic church is like, "protestants? Oh, fine people. They'll get into heaven no problem."
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According to my understanding of Catholicism, pretty much everybody gets into heaven eventually? Like, purgatory sucks, but you don't stay there forever.
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Despite his writings to the contrary, I get the feeling that deep in his heart of hearts, Jack T. Chick believes that you're going to hell unless you are Jack T. Chick. And you richly deserve it, you perverted heretic you.
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According to my understanding of Catholicism, pretty much everybody gets into heaven eventually? Like, purgatory sucks, but you don't stay there forever.
But Hell is forever, if you're into that kind of thing.
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According to my understanding of Catholicism, pretty much everybody gets into heaven eventually? Like, purgatory sucks, but you don't stay there forever.
Mostly right. What they taught us in CCD was if you get sent to hell that's it. Game over. But anybody can get into heaven as long as they were a good person. Stuff like going to church, the sacraments, and believing in Jesus speed the process but a hard-line atheist or hindu or even protestant will get there eventually as long as they did unto others and all that.
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I guess the main reason I'm confused (other than the obvious "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.") is the one-sided seething hatred.
Mostly because Catholicism adheres to practices that are understood by the Protestant faith as downright corrupt and, worse, corrupting in nature. But the main reason for the beef could, I think, be established thusly: To a Catholic, a Protestant isn't actively doing anything wrong - he just isn't doing the things that would formalize his acceptance of Salvation through the Church and all that it entails w/r/t the person's relationship with God (so maybe they feel a little like thinking "Hey, catch up, little fella!"); while, in the Protestant perspective, Catholics not only are not doing the things God would want them to, they are also actively doing harmful deeds with them death cookies and whatnot. Of course the mileage varies from Protestant denomination to denomination, I'd wager (in a world where you have working institutions such as "Jews for Christ", surely you can see how a guy could get confused).
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So yeah, in highschool some friends of mine and I were able to collect over half the tracts in print, just from going about our lives and having them handed to us. Then for my sister's 17th birthday we all chipped in and got her the sampler pack (it's like $40 and totally worth it). I drew a fake one as a campaign ad for a friend in student government. "No! You Were Wrong! You did not accept Lanier Nielson as your one true treasurer!"
Chick might be the most printed author in history. They have printed over a billion of those things in over a hundred languages. They reach an audience somewhat similar in size to the Rolling Stones'. It's fuck*ng nuts. If you can track down the issue of The Imp about Chick and Chick Inc, you really should. 100% Authentic American Crazy.
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I'm under the impression that any mainline Christian reading of the Bible adheres to the idea that no one can get into Heaven without at least accepting Jesus. Protestants and Catholics appear to hold this true, but differ on whether salvation is through the Grace of God, or the Good Works of Man.
The idea that Catholic dogma preaches that anyone will eventually get into heaven is false. Catholicism depends on a "meaningful relationship with God". This is why it runs into things like unbaptized dead babies going to Limbo, and questionable fate of the severely retarded.
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Well... if Jesus was a beach ball in 1517, you would have seen a scene where Martin Luther just mad ran with it under his arm to a new beach, and lots of people ran away with him, and soon lots of people had their own balls which they swear it's the official one.
I want to be in dejavroom's Sunday school class.
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Also: Nice little essay on the Schism here (http://"http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0097.html"). I think it's very apropos of the direction the discussion seems to be going, since it deals with the central issue in the Reform: What after all will save your ass?
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Everyone's had some pretty good things to say here, I just want to add that:
1. A year or so ago the Roman Catholic Church stated that Limbo is only a "possible theological hypothesis", and not official doctrine in any way; and
2. The various Orthodox churches have as good a claim at being the "original church" as the Roman Catholic Church does.
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2. The various Orthodox churches have as good a claim at being the "original church" as the Roman Catholic Church does.
ORIGINAL PETE'S!!!
On the Rock since 0 A.D.
There's no denying -- Original Pete's!
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I'm under the impression that any mainline Christian reading of the Bible adheres to the idea that no one can get into Heaven without at least accepting Jesus. Protestants and Catholics appear to hold this true, but differ on whether salvation is through the Grace of God, or the Good Works of Man.
The idea that Catholic dogma preaches that anyone will eventually get into heaven is false. Catholicism depends on a "meaningful relationship with God". This is why it runs into things like unbaptized dead babies going to Limbo, and questionable fate of the severely retarded.
Obviously I've never read any like notarized church documents or anything, I can just say what my various CCD teachers said. We always used to get this little 4-page handout, kind of like the Weekly Reader in school but all catholicism-fied. The back page was usually Q&A format and one week it was "can muslims get into heaven" and the answer was what I said above about just being a good person. The only part I'm hazy about is if it made a distinction between atheism through ignorance and through choice.
I've never actually heard the unbaptized baby in limbo from any church spokesperson. I don't know if that's because I went to a touchy-feely church that avoided the topic, if the dogma changed and some point, or if it was never actually catholic dogma to begin with.
Of course I haven't attended any church since the 2000 election so for me this is purely an intellectual exercise. Until recently there was this evangelizing asshole at my work and I used to always use the "why would Jesus have Peter start a church if it was the wrong church" argument to stymie him. That plus the conflicting gospels.
AW: Cann'd. 0 AD not being an actual year actually makes it funnier.
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America makes more sense when you realize just how much Calvinism had to do with its founding. Not those particular millionaires and billionaires that threw the coup, but the common culture of the middle class. We believe that people with good souls will be visible on earth because when they work hard they get a good life. That's the only context in which I can make my home culture make any sort of sense.
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Everyone's had some pretty good things to say here, I just want to add that:
1. A year or so ago the Roman Catholic Church stated that Limbo is only a "possible theological hypothesis", and not official doctrine in any way; and
2. The various Orthodox churches have as good a claim at being the "original church" as the Roman Catholic Church does.
I took a lot of Eastern Europe courses in college, and one of them was about Eastern Orthodox. The teacher said it is the oldest christian church then this catholic and her got into a hour long argument until he stormed out and never came back. Good times.
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I encountered Jack Chick for the first time in much the same fashion as I lost my virginity - it was discreet, quiet, and in a public restroom.
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I first found out about Jack Chick through Space Moose (http://web.archive.org/web/20031012005522/www.drunkanddisorderly.net/spacemoose/antlers.gif).
Did anyone else learn the error of their ways by the same path?
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The first Chick tract (albeit slightly modified) I saw was God Hates The Scene (http://www.epsilonminus.com/godhatesthescene/).
I don't think people leave them lying around in Australia because not as many of our Christians are totally batshit insane. Well, beyond the normal batshit insanity that comes along with believing in any religion, that is.
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We believe that people with good souls will be visible on earth because when they work hard they get a good life.
Ah, the Protestant fuck*ng Work Ethic.
My REAL nemesis.
People running around trying to prove that God loves them by lying cheating and stealing Stuff, so that they can convince others that God just gave them all that stuff because God thinks they're awesome, so that they can convince themselves that God loves them via some fuck*ng ridiculous mental gymnastics.
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Ah, the Protestant fuck*ng Work Ethic.
My REAL nemesis.
People running around trying to prove that God loves them by lying cheating and stealing Stuff, so that they can convince others that God just gave them all that stuff because God thinks they're awesome, so that they can convince themselves that God loves them via some fuck*ng ridiculous mental gymnastics.
You have a serious misunderstanding of anything even related to the protestant work ethic. yikes.
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No no no, I know how the Protestant Work Ethic is "supposed" to work. How it is claimed to work.
I didn't need to type the textbook theoretical sanitized version of it, anybody can Wikipedia that shit.
I hate how it actually works, which I explained above.
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The thing that I always have trouble fitting my head around is the whole faith vs. works thing where (this is just my understanding and could be wrong) Jacky C and his ilk (J.C.! I just noticed that...) will tell you that you can live the most caring giving life possible but if you don't give skybeard his regular props he will set fire to you forever and you will totally deserve it.
It reminds me of older religions (let's say greek pantheon) where it was kind of implicit that you didn't worship the gods because they were deserving of it but because they would fuck your shit up if you didn't. It just seems like a whole different philosophy to mainstream christianity (and even Islam and Judaism for that matter).
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I just have to say, Skybeard and His Regular Props somehow strikes me as a band name I have to add to the List.
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The band name is the shortest form of poetry.
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For One Can, I will absolve your sins and let you start anew.
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This List should be published. Like, here, or someplace. It would be a boon to your fellow man.
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For One Can, I will absolve your sins and let you start anew.
I'll go for that.
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I'll go for that.
Absolved!
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When I was just a Fast Ninja, way back in primary school, I remember making things up to confess when my CCD class went to confession. I knew I wasn't a perfect kid, but I thought it was shady that they'd expect 9-year-olds to have "sins" to confess that required the good Lord's notification. The worst things I did were to prank-call neighbors and shoplift scratch-and-sniff stickers. Even now, I do not believe these infractions to be the stuff of divine concern. Absolution and penance should be used on those who need it. God and I will have issues if I get blacklisted for having a rap sheet as innocuous as mine.
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Yeah, when that hippos tail starts to spinnin' it's time to haul ass out of the hippo enclosure.
I found this out the hard way.
Indeed. Been there, done that. (http://www.bigfool.com/foolblog/archive/2007_01.htm#000822)
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Indeed. Been there, done that. (http://www.bigfool.com/foolblog/archive/2007_01.htm#000822)
I sure hope none got on the Mayor.
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When I was just a Fast Ninja, way back in primary school, I remember making things up to confess when my CCD class went to confession.
Interesting that in doing that, you were lying to the priest, which has got to be worse than the sins you were making up in the first place.
For me, personally, the more a religion relies on faith, the less inclined I am to believe in it. Unfortunately, they all seem to do that to some degree.
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For me, personally, the more a religion relies on faith, the less inclined I am to believe in it. Unfortunately, they all seem to do that to some degree.
It's almost as if religion in general exists to address issues which cannot be resolved through evidential reasoning, what with us already having science for that.
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It's almost as if religion in general exists to address issues which cannot be resolved through evidential reasoning, what with us already having science for that.
Unless science could resolve these issues, if only we had more of it. I think I read that on a magnet somewhere.
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CCD class
Everytime someone mentions "CCD" in this thread I keep thinking "What do charge-coupled devices have to do with Catholicism?"
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Unless science could resolve these issues, if only we had more of it. I think I read that on a magnet somewhere.
What I find funny (in a scary sort of way) is that delve deep enough in both Religion and Science and they'll ask you to believe in ludicrous shit (not even necessarily untrue shit, but you should know what I mean - concepts that go against the grain of empirical "common sense"), each in their own way.
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It's almost as if religion in general exists to address issues which cannot be resolved through evidential reasoning, what with us already having science for that.
Yeah well that's a thing isn't it. Science has a nasty habit of figuring shit out and religion wants to take issue with it. This has been going on since day one.
Every step in scientific progress has been met with objection from the church whenever it goes against what is written in the bible.
That's why the bible must be discounted, because science has figured out a lot of shit that was unknown back when it was written and proven it to be a ludicrous document.
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MC Hawking knows what the score is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89jt7zJzkNQ)
I'm a disciple of science
I know the universe is in full compliance
With natural laws
But many place reliance
On the psuedo-science
Of quacks and morons and fools because
Their education's deficient
They put faith in omniscient
Make-believe beings who control their fate
But the Hawk ain't with it, dig it
Their Holy writ ain't the least bit legit
It's a bunch of bullshit
They need to read a book that's not so damn old
Let reason take hold
Though truth to be told
They're probably already too far gone
Withdrawn, the conclusion foregone
But maybe there is still hope for the young
If they reject the dung being slung from the tongues
Of the ignorant fools who call themselves preachers
And listen instead to their science teachers
Upon blind faith they place reliance,
What we need more of is science!
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Every step in scientific progress has been met with objection from the church whenever it goes against what is written in the bible.
That's because people always try to make the morality serve the magic when it's meant to work the other way around.
If that sentence makes no sense it's because I had a long post leading up to it, but it got out of hand so I'm just keeping it simple.
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The magic's supposed to be the spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down and...
Instead, the world has become fat and irrational on empty calories and cast out the medication, growing sicker by the day.
I mean, shellgiraffe and pork weren't compatible with the food-prep science three thousand years ago without fuck*ng killing people and so...
Some wise motherfuckers decided to say that a spooky ghost in the sky said it was a sin and people bought it.
I mean, it is also wise to not steal porridge from bears and I'm glad that this was explained to me as a child in a fanciful manner but... it's all just stories.
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I mean, it is also wise to not steal porridge from bears and I'm glad that this was explained to me as a child in a fanciful manner but... it's all just stories.
This is actually the best argument in favor of religion that I have heard lately.
And hey, Ben! Don't be such a stranger!
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The magic's supposed to be the spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down and...
This is a bit too vague for me to try and dispute, but I'd like to point out that there's more to religious discourse than "magic tales" that tell you how to avoid the dangers of the physical world (or how to behave in the best interests of the community you're part of, for instance). Actually, sometimes religious advice will go against what's perceived as the rational, scientific common sense (sometimes at the expense of one's personal health, safety, popularity, wealth etc), simply because the basic distinction of goals (which in turn influence the actions and m.o.) between Religion and Science is that Religion places its emphasis in the belief of continuation of consciousness in one form or another in an afterlife. This squares with two of the most important mystical tenets that have been voiced in many different ways throughout the ages - first that the physical world, ruled and surveyed by empirical knowledge, is a farce of the senses (degrees of malignity of this "theater of shadows" varying from religion to religion), and following from that the saying that "Man's wisdom is folly to God" (and vice-versa).
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All I'm really saying is that religion's a mechanism that functions to turn our essential search for meaning into THE convenient means of social control.
In a much larger world that knew a lot less, such social control was a far more necessary evil.
Sometimes it was quite needed.
These days, in this set of situations, it is a crutch that prevents a healed leg from being walked upon, at best...
And at worst and far more often, the sole and self-fulfilling remaining underpinning of tyranny.
At this stage culturally, instead of disseminating knowledge to people who can't process it in full, religion suppresses knowledge to sustain the power structure that was formed out of it.
I'm not saying, of course, that we are beyond our own personal reckonings with divinity.
I genuinely hope (though largely doubt) that there is Something in charge above this level of understanding, that I might someday wrestle with it and get some fuck*ng explanations for the way things are and a full accounting on Its sins against the human race as opposed to the other way around... I shake in anticipation of such an encounter.
I would have words with this heartless bastard as it tore me to atoms and rags.
But on a cultural scale, on a world scale now that we are a world as a race whether we want to admit it or not, churches priests organized mass faith... it's a pyramid scheme by confidence men and lunatics to fulfill their agendae... social, economic, sexual, whatever. We know that the stars aren't pinpricks in the blanket Odin throws over the goddamned sun at night, we know that these are fusion reactions from before there were people just getting to our eyes.
And that's more beautiful by ten thousand than some one-eyed warlock and a secondhand bedspread.
Organized faith is just a skeleton for unessential power structures to hang their little cloak-and-dagger three-card-monte schemes upon.
We seek intercourse with divinity and end up rolled by leering pimps before the faintest glimpse of a transaction.
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All I'm really saying is that religion's a mechanism that functions to turn our essential search for meaning into THE convenient means of social control.
It can be that, it is that a lot of times, but it is not only that. Is Politics always all about gulags, executions, exiles in Siberia? Is Science always all about thalidomide, Chernobyl and global warming?
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Hey look, another sMets argument with a one sided cast to set up a mental strawman for beatings!
idk man, he's got me pretty convinced that religion is evil and that the protestant work ethic is really some kind of scam to make people want more things. Also, something about skeletons with daggers leading pyramid schemes. Or something.
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lfm, i feel like what you are missing sometimes is the understanding that... people can be just as smart as you, and just as good as you, and come to completely different conclusions about how to live their lives.
to be fair, a-cap, the protestant work ethic does blow pretty bad.
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(...)skeletons with daggers leading pyramid schemes.
Admittedly, this would be a kickass idea for a trippy comic book story.
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All I'm really saying is that religion's a mechanism that functions to turn our essential search for meaning into THE convenient means of social control.
Opiate of the masses, et cetera? Yeah, I've heard this one before.
I believe in God. Worse yet, I believe in a loving, omnipotent creator God who created a covenant with Abraham and then sent a messiah to fulfill that covenant and extend it to all the people of the earth. And I go to church every Sunday to remember and celebrate that belief. So I'm probably one of the brainwashed sheep that so turn your stomach, LFM, but hear me out anyway. I don't think we've had the opportunity to fight yet, and I'm thinking today's as good a day as any.
I've never understood what the whole religion vs. science debate was really all about. I mean, yes, Science says that the earth was created in a giant explosion caused by...something...and the Bible says it was crafted by the hand of God. Many mainstream Christians would say that the Big Bang and evolution were the tools God used to create the universe and everything in it, and that Genesis can't be interpreted literally. I take a different tack. So maybe God created the universe with a Word six billion years ago, and maybe He did it with a giant explosion thirteen billion years ago. I don't really care how or when He did it, or really even if He did it at all -- the point is, the universe is here, and we have to live in it.
Seems to me the Bible never claims to be a scientific text, or to replace science. Seems to me that it's more a manual for how we ought to live -- if you're Jewish, by keeping God's commandments, and if you're Christian, by following the example of Christ. Sure, there's a lot of stuff in there that is open to interpretation, and sometimes it's been interpreted to mean "kill everyone who doesn't believe like you do," but that's the error of human reasoning, not the fault of the Book itself. When I read the Bible -- and admittedly, it's been a little while since I've really studied it on my own -- I find that at its core, it describes the variety of human relationships and how we ought (or ought not, in some cases) to treat one another.
Because here's my theory on the meaning of life. I know that's not what we're debating here, but I feel it's germane because it influences how I interpret the whole of religion and theology. I believe in the triune God, and I believe he placed us each here for a purpose. And I believe we all have the same purpose: to learn everything we can about how to behave and relate to each other so that when we die, we will be prepared to finally have that perfect relationship with God that we all seek, consciously or otherwise. (Intercourse with divinity, as you put it.)
I believe that every relationship we have on Earth -- parent/child, peers, spouses -- expresses a different aspect of God's love for us and how he wants us to learn to love him. The relationship between parent and child is perhaps the most complex, but in short, it shows us the one-sided love that God has for us. While we will never love God as much as he loves us (as I know from being both a parent and a child), he loves us unconditionally as our "Father." The relationship between peers is what God was getting at when he sent Jesus to live and walk among us and experience life as we experience it -- the "Son" part of the trinity. The romantic love that we share with a partner gives us a small taste of the passion of the Holy Spirit, a preview of the bliss of heaven and the desire to strive eternally to please someone other than ourselves. These are the lessons encompassed by the Bible, expressed in many ways and through many different means in order to reach the widest possible audience.
So given that interpretation, I don't give a rat's ass whether Eve was created from Adam's rib or we were all swinging from trees about a hundred generations back. I live in a world where monkeys are monkeys and men are men, and all I need to know from the Bible is how to treat the people around me, and all I need to know from Science is how to not fuck up the planet or my body any worse than it is, 'cause I don't know how much longer I'm gonna be stuck here.
Those two things, in my opinion, never need to meet.
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JL: I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Dang, I am torn. I am impressed by JL's analysis, but Ash is right, and I personally am sore in need of more shenanigans.
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Dang, I am torn. I am impressed by JL's analysis, but Ash is right, and I personally am sore in need of more shenanigans.
My god can beat up your god. I bet all your god created was british food and french comedy. Also, it walks like a duck with the gout.
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I was originally going to goad her by asking her if she's sure she's not Catholic, but I thought the meme phrase was better standing by itself.
I guess the better question is whether I'm sure I'm not Lutheran.
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And if that works for you, personally, jay-elle... mazeltov, nostrovia, skoal... I am seriously glad it works for you.
It sounds like you've worked out your own personal situation with The Potential Underlying Reality and it's healthy.
I'm talking about the big organized stuff that demands meetings and money and motherfuckers designated to serve as paid intermediaries between you and the deity of your reckoning because it serves an organization's profitability to tell you that you don't know how to deal with The Great Beyond, just you and Whatever That Is.
One potential translation of "Israel" is "wrestles with God" and... I've always liked that.
As long as you've done the work yourself... with the intelligence you always show around here... I totally respect your path.
I'm just saying, I don't trust any system that says it gets to tell you what divinity is/does/wants/says... these things can only be scams or madness or both.
And in case there is something like that really out there, I'm working on my half-nelson. Just in case, just in case.
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Seems to me the Bible never claims to be a scientific text, or to replace science. Seems to me that it's more a manual for how we ought to live -- if you're Jewish, by keeping God's commandments, and if you're Christian, by following the example of Christ. Sure, there's a lot of stuff in there that is open to interpretation, and sometimes it's been interpreted to mean "kill everyone who doesn't believe like you do," but that's the error of human reasoning, not the fault of the Book itself. When I read the Bible -- and admittedly, it's been a little while since I've really studied it on my own -- I find that at its core, it describes the variety of human relationships and how we ought (or ought not, in some cases) to treat one another.
If I knew more people who believed this I'd be much closer to contentment. As it stands I see much more of the "convenient means of social control" lfm mentioned. I've actively pursed this conversation while several people. It's a spirit quest of mine..
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As it stands I see much more of the "convenient means of social control" lfm mentioned.
So perhaps there exists a tiny chance of recognizing these occurrences as nothing more than anecdotal evidence which, while being irrefutably strong in its capacity to support claims of crookedness in Religion, it is also irretrievably weak as an argument for proving that all of Religion is crooked, since said occurrences are particular, personal experiences largely affected by the randomness of geography? No?
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(I should, shouldn't I? But part of me is also waiting for more shenanigans).
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I believe that the turtle moves.
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It sounds like you've worked out your own personal situation with The Potential Underlying Reality and it's healthy.
I'm talking about the big organized stuff that demands meetings and money and motherfuckers designated to serve as paid intermediaries between you and the deity of your reckoning because it serves an organization's profitability to tell you that you don't know how to deal with The Great Beyond, just you and Whatever That Is.
See, I knew you would say that, and I am ready for you.
The thing is, you can't separate the church from its people. You can't say, "Oh, I'm not talking about YOU Christians, I'm talking about THOSE Christians. The ones who want to ban gay marriage and put the Ten Commandments in the county courthouse and criminalize abortion in all fifty states." Because you can't say, "Well, clearly, jayell has given her beliefs a lot of thought, since it makes some sort of sense even if I disagree. But these other people -- these people whose opinions I cannot understand -- they must be un-examined and un-informed, to think such things." Because they believe what they believe, and they have reasons for those beliefs.
It would be like if I said, "The reason atheists don't believe in God is because they are so self-centered that they can't see past their own pain, and without a lack of comprehension of all human suffering they cannot conceive of a higher purpose. They just want their own pain to disappear, regardless of the cost to others. And in this state, in the utter absence of compassion for humanity, atheists lack the ability to conceive of a compassionate God who nonetheless allows evil and pain on an individual level for the benefit of mankind as a whole."
You know, present company excluded, this must be how all atheists think, or else they would not be so threatened by Christians such as to be offended by images of the Nativity at Christmastime, and the like.
Present company excluded, of course.
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The thing is, you can't separate the church from its people. You can't say, "Oh, I'm not talking about YOU Christians, I'm talking about THOSE Christians. The ones who want to ban gay marriage and put the Ten Commandments in the county courthouse and criminalize abortion in all fifty states." Because you can't say, "Well, clearly, jayell has given her beliefs a lot of thought, since it makes some sort of sense even if I disagree. But these other people -- these people whose opinions I cannot understand -- they must be un-examined and un-informed, to think such things." Because they believe what they believe, and they have reasons for those beliefs.
I do not agree. I am working on getting myself to a point where I can respect people who live their lives in a way differently from mine. And I think I am doing pretty well. But the point where I hit a roadblock and just get mad is when I get to people whose "life choice" is to not respect my life choices or that of my friends.
I am not OK with this life choice. I am not OK with people raising their children and telling them that being a christian means hating those who don't follow their beliefs-- and I've encountered a lot of this in my life.
I can handle it a lot. I can handle people making little comments, I can handle that maybe some people I love have families like this, etc. I can justify it to a large degree, and I can love and accept these people as individuals. I can accept that someone can have been raised a certain way and be racist, or sexist, or bigoted in one way or another, but still be a good person on the whole.
But accept this system of religion? accept that these christians are just as legit as the ones who follow the truly beautiful and beneficial parts of Jesus' teachings, instead of getting hung up on Old Testament books about stoning sinners? Never. Never.
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Now that that's out of the way, since my kids are behaving, let me go back and pick up some of the comments I've been neglecting.
I was originally going to goad her by asking her if she's sure she's not Catholic, but I thought the meme phrase was better standing by itself.
I guess the better question is whether I'm sure I'm not Lutheran.
It's not a Lutheran thing, what I said before about relationships. My mom spent a couple of years in seminary when I was a kid and she has always encouraged me to ask hard questions and to seek my own answers, that's where it all came from. I'm not a fan of any particular organized religion, personally -- I go where I feel I can grow. The Lutheran church is my home for the moment because I found a community that I enjoy and that feeds me and my family spiritually. But I wouldn't call myself "A Lutheran." There are some great things about the Lutheran church, but I don't agree with everything they teach and practice. There are also a lot of wonderful things about the Roman Catholic church, the Baptist church, the Orthodox church, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and the LDS church. (Not Scientology, though. They're wackos.)
I believe that the turtle moves.
Amen, my brother.
I do not agree. I am working on getting myself to a point where I can respect people who live their lives in a way differently from mine. And I think I am doing pretty well. But the point where I hit a roadblock and just get mad is when I get to people whose "life choice" is to not respect my life choices or that of my friends.
I am not OK with this life choice. I am not OK with people raising their children and telling them that being a christian means hating those who don't follow their beliefs-- and I've encountered a lot of this in my life.
I can handle it a lot. I can handle people making little comments, I can handle that maybe some people I love have families like this, etc. I can justify it to a large degree, and I can love and accept these people as individuals. I can accept that someone can have been raised a certain way and be racist, or sexist, or bigoted in one way or another, but still be a good person on the whole.
But accept this system of religion? accept that these christians are just as legit as the ones who follow the truly beautiful and beneficial parts of Jesus' teachings, instead of getting hung up on Old Testament books about stoning sinners? Never. Never.
Yes, but you can't discount the whole of the Church, or certain denominations, or whatnot, over the intolerance of a few of its adherents. Even if those adherents are the leadership.
You can't say, "People who believe in God can still behave like assholes, so it's better not to believe in God at all."
Actually, you *can* say that, if you really want to. But it doesn't make you any better than the hateful Christians who use the name of God to justify their prejudices. So I don't really recommend it.
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But if the turtle moves isn't everything going to fall off?
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Don't worry - its standing on the back of another Turtle.
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Don't worry - its standing on the back of another Turtle.
It's turtles all the way down.
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It's turtles all the way down.
I heard there was a tortoise in there somewhere.
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Quote from: jay-ell on Today at 04:04:41 PM
It's turtles all the way down.
I heard there was a tortoise in there somewhere.
Episcopalian, huh?
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It's turtles all the way down.
That just makes it worse. Can't you imagine what a precarious situation that is?
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Where do the 4 elephants fit into this?
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(Not Scientology, though. They're wackos.)
WhatEVER. Are you sure it's Jesus you're following, and not.... XENU?!?!?
I was a born-again Christian for six months when I was 16, but it was for a girl, so I don't know how valid it is. I went thorough a bit of a spiritual crisis when I was 19, and finally settled on agnosticism. I didn't care for full-on atheism, because they believe in something just as much as the religious do - it's just that what they believe in is "nothing." I have found no proof that God exists, but I don't have any proof that God doesn't, either. There are times when I wish I could believe in something... I'd feel a whole lot better about death if I did... but nothing has come out and hit me in the head and said, "this is it."
I will say that if humanity is the best God can do... God needs to take some night classes or something.
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That just makes it worse. Can't you imagine what a precarious situation that is?
Maybe they've got some superglue on their shells? That could help.
My guess on why a lot of religious institutions mess up is that they are run by people, and people fuck up. It's in the manual.
re: Atheism, folks like Dawkins don't speak for all of us, our evangelicals are just as embarrassing as yours.
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My guess on why a lot of religious institutions mess up is that they are run by people, and people fuck up. It's in the manual.
Same sentiment as what I said, but said much better. Thank you.
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Education.
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Dammit, I just want a final answer on how many of what are dancing on the head of the damn pin!
All kidding aside, I think this statement represents the source of one of my major objections to organized religion.
People do want answers. We have an innate need to answers to the big questions of Life, The Universe and Everything. Being the impatient monkeys that we are, we want said answers now, simply stated and in a definitive form. Personally I believe the answers don't satisfy any of those conditions, but what are you going to do? Our need is strong. And our curiosity is a very good thing.
But this little quirk of human nature is exploited over and over again -- by both the scrupulous and unscrupulous. And the exploiters of our little character flaw, who range from the merely venal cult leader seeking a quick buck to the social architects who mold entire cultures, have taught me to mistrust packaged spirituality.
So I guess my point is this. Nobody can tell you how many angels dance on the head of a pin. You have to count them yourself. Anybody who says they can likely has their own purpose for offering. Other folks can help you look, but you've got to do most of the real work on your own.
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Don't listen to that Heretic, I've counted the angels and all the other stuff on there too. I can even offer my translation services if you want to talk to them. Cash, cheque, card, whatever, I'm easy.
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The "Head of a Pin" was actually a pub in Saarbrücken, Germany, max. capacity 250. I don't expect you smug self-satisfying naysayers to consider actually spending 5 minutes pondering the hidden meaning of religious discourse, but a bunch of it is written allegorically, you know...
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My guess on why a lot of religious institutions mess up is that they are run by people, and people fuck up. It's in the manual.
St. Peter was actually a rabbit. Things were cool back then.
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So perhaps there exists a tiny chance of recognizing these occurrences as nothing more than anecdotal evidence which, while being irrefutably strong in its capacity to support claims of crookedness in Religion, it is also irretrievably weak as an argument for proving that all of Religion is crooked, since said occurrences are particular, personal experiences largely affected by the randomness of geography? No?
No doubt more than a tiny chance. But still just a chance, not confirmed.
I can only base my opinion on what I've seen and heard. I actively look, but still more of the same. As W said "Fool me once... shame on you. Fool me twice... you can't get fooled again"
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I can only base my opinion on what I've seen and heard.
I've heard there's this thing where you can also base your opinion on results obtained by deduction from formalized statements following elementary logic, but hey.
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This is why you guys are worth the time.
I threw out a smart ass comment and one of you picked up the meat of what I was sassing about and spun it out into something of value.
Cool
Yep. Despite the fact that we have neither Chubbies nor Lames, the ability to make both random flip comments and, um, well, I guess, not-random flip comments keeps me coming back.
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Yep. Despite the fact that we have neither Chubbies nor Lames
Speak for yourself.
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I've heard there's this thing where you can also base your opinion on results obtained by deduction from formalized statements following elementary logic, but hey.
On certain subjects I'll trust a formalized statement. On others, not so much. I'm just crazy that way... If you've got a formalized statement that follows elementary logic on the subject of religion, pass it on. I'll gladly read it.
I was just saying most people I've spoken to about religion follow wacky theories that make no sense to me. I get perturbed when they push it on me and want me to 'believe' it as well. A few* people have actual thought about and researched their faith and still come up with wacky theories that they follow, and I'm cool with that. At least thought was involved. I actually enjoy discussing it with them. It seemed to me that jay-ell has thought about her beliefs and I was digging that, but I don't see that much of that and would like to see more.
I never said all religion is evil. I actually think that (gasp) it's good for some people. But in my admittedly small circle most religious people were just 'raised that way' and go through the motions and that upsets me for some reason. All this is just the opinion of one dude born and raised in the bible belt.
*few people-of the 20 or so people I've discussed religious beliefs with I know 4 who have put much thought into it. Again a generalized statement, but specific to me. Maybe a national poll will show the inverse at some other location. Then I'll try to find this place and consider living there.
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If you've got a formalized statement that follows elementary logic on the subject of religion, pass it on. I'll gladly read it.
I already did that. That's what I've been doing for the last 5 cocking pages. You don't assuage me when you say you'll "gladly read it" when I know you won't think about it. Anyway, I don't like repeating myself with different words, so, moving on: Phillipe is five.
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It seems I should be defending a position or clarifing something I said, but apparently I'm too dense to have followed what I said that was so offensive or controversial. If you'd be so kind as to explain it once again, maybe the different words will soak in. I will think about it and give it another go. If not, Phillipe is five, indeed.
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No, that boat has sailed. But I'm glad we can agree on Phillipe`s fiveness.
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How can Philippe still be five when he just had a birthday?
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Because it was his fifth birthday of course.
Did I just blow your mind?
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I was gonna reply that this is a De fide matter, but frankly, didn't the last 7 pages teach me nothing?
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Whoaaaaa
A religion discussion. On this board! Whoda thunk it. I'm with Mom, for the record, and actually I imagine somewhat to the right of her. Now back to discussing the otter and the bear and etc. already.
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Whoaaaaa
A religion discussion. On this board! Whoda thunk it. I'm with Mom, for the record, and actually I imagine somewhat to the right of her. Now back to discussing the otter and the bear and etc. already.
Actually it wasn't truly a real spontaneous religion discussion. We were just trying to summon you back.
It worked!
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Actually it wasn't truly a real spontaneous religion discussion. We were just trying to summon you back.
It worked!
Canned for....
um....
hell, just have a can.