The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => People & Places => Topic started by: miles on May 25, 2010, 02:25:32 am
-
Sorry to hijack this otherwise pleasant thread, but I just read, and looked at, this (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/05/oil_reaches_louisiana_shores.html).
Am I the only liberal here absolutely stunned by Obama's inaction? If we elected a socialist, he's a piss-poor socialist and needs to go back to the ivy league for some reeducation. I mean, if a trucking company has a truck full of toxic material that crashes, catches on fire and threatens a community, do we expect the trucking company to handle it? No! The local government gets in there, puts the fire out and cleans that shit up! Or at least make sure it gets done. Maybe I am alone, but if I'm not, why the fuck hasn't he been taken to task by the media?
-
Because the government doesn't have the equipment to deal with this situation, the oil companies and the oil rig contractors do.
Look, I hate the oil companies as much as the next guy, but are you suggesting that they are intentionally dawdling? I assume BP is amoral and motivated solely by money. Each day this goes on costs them more. They have a huge incentive to get this stopped and no incentive to let it continue. But some things are very very difficult to accomplish. Just because this is taking a long time doesn't necessary mean that it could have been done quicker.
-
Because the government doesn't have the equipment to deal with this situation, the oil companies and the oil rig contractors do.
That's a fair explanation. But even though that may very well be the case, I guess I'm frustrated by the fact Obama isn't using his bully pulpit as effectively as he could be. And I have no doubt that BP has a huge incentive to stop and no reason to let it go on, but obviously they are failing. I suppose I'm mostly just...frustrated.
-
I suppose I'm mostly just...frustrated.
Yeah. Me too.
-
Yeah, me three.
-
Irregardless of this (I don't really care about this- I've said it before- gay marriage, legalize all drugs and prostitution before I care about anything else) I am pretty sure Obama is the person who makes me stop voting.
-
The thing to be mad at the government about is not that they aren't sending government employees to plug the well. The thing to be mad about is that they permitted the drilling in the first place without being sure that the company would be able to deal with a mishap if one occurred.
-
I've said it before- gay marriage, legalize all drugs and prostitution before I care about anything else) I am pretty sure Obama is the person who makes me stop voting.
I don't know about this. I mean, gay marriage is a political minefield, and it's not surprising that he is being cautious about this. This is going to be an issue that, sadly, has to be chipped away at. And hasn't he pledged not to enforce federal marijuana laws in states that have legalized marijuana use? That's huge. And as far as all drugs and prostitution, did he even campaign on these issues? Do you expect Obama to sign an executive order to legalize all drugs and prostitution? No president would ever dream of doing this. You're setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment if you think otherwise, so, well, I guess it might be good to give up now. But it's unfair to blame Obama for all of this. These issues will all have to be worked out in Congress (maybe gay marriage can be worked out in the courts, but it's not likely anytime soon). Sure, he could be more forceful in his rhetoric, and that's a pretty big disappointment, but he is a politician, and right now is working to make sure he gets elected again. That's nothing new.
-
The thing to be mad at the government about is not that they aren't sending government employees to plug the well. The thing to be mad about is that they permitted the drilling in the first place without being sure that the company would be able to deal with a mishap if one occurred.
Yeah, free markets are fine but it seems reasonable that people shouldn't be allowed to play if they can't demonstrate ability to take responsibility for their actions.
-
Split, so no one has to come upon this depressing topic after a pleasant discussion of fried oysters.
-
So I was all "I should link to something informative up there" but this makes me so mad, I didn't want to do the search. Then I sat down to read the morning paper. I couldn't get much further than this:
The federal agency responsible for regulating U.S. offshore oil drilling repeatedly ignored warnings from government scientists about environmental risks in its push to approve energy exploration activities quickly, according to numerous documents and interviews.
Minerals Management Service officials, who can receive cash bonuses in the thousands of dollars based in large part on meeting federal deadlines for leasing offshore oil and gas exploration, frequently changed documents and bypassed legal requirements aimed at protecting the marine environment, the documents show.
If you think you can stand it the rest is here.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/24/AR2010052401974.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/24/AR2010052401974.html)
They do have experts who are charged with this task and the least I expect is that they don't get cash bonuses for one decision as opposed to another.
-
Yeah, not so fast.
BP's gonna spend 5-7 years and a few billions on containment and cleanup from this. Kinda sounds like taking responsibility, y'dig?
Taking responsibility after the fact is not the issue for me. The company has said in public "this is hard because we've never had to do it at this depth" as if that excuses it. Sure, so you go ahead and drill at that depth and if there's a disaster you'll just figure it out as you go along once it happens. Now we're seeing how that's working out for all of us.
There is plenty of blame to go around here, for sure.
-
i saw a thing on my local news that piqued my curiosity. an oceanographer who went to some college in PA is down in the gulf doing science-y junk there. he talked about a certain kind of bacteria on the sea floor thereabouts that eats the oil. its not going to save the day, but its something that helps, for now.
*tangent*
what if this bacteria eventually grows uncontrollably and moves on to the oil on the shores and comes out of the water and is bad for people and turns us into zombies?
-
All I know is that if I end up not being able to take my kids to the beach ever again I am going to be SO PISSED.
Also, it makes me think of the episode of The Simpsons where Lisa wants to spend spring break helping clean up after the Exxon Valdez spill, and all the cute animals are being cleaned by celebrities, so they get relegated to scrubbing rocks with toothbrushes, and Marge turns to Lisa and says, "I have rocks that need cleaning at home!"
Just one more fuck*ng thing to worry about, just what I needed.
-
Like that, yeah that might be a little much (but cool!) of an impact. But otherwise I give it the three generation shrug.
i was using the part of my brain thats still 10 when i wrote that.
-
I think its incredible (as in - how could this have happened) that the "blowout preventer" didn't work. I mean, shouldn't the default state of the well be "closed" unless everything is hunky dory all the way up the pipe? Why don't those things work like a deadman switch?
-
I think its incredible (as in - how could this have happened) that the "blowout preventer" didn't work. I mean, shouldn't the default state of the well be "closed" unless everything is hunky dory all the way up the pipe? Why don't those things work like a deadman switch?
that makes too much sense.
-
Obviously, your 'lets find out' threshold is a lot lower than mine. I'm OK with things blowing up horribly as long as some kind of technological/engineering advance comes from it. Is this a catastrophe of the kind that is irrecoverable from?
This really does seem like it is breaking new ground as far as environmental disasters go. I don't think that's a reasonable price to pay for an engineering advance. Yeah, I would choose a pristine Gulf ecosystem over an oil company's ability to make money by drilling in even more places. I'll bet a lot of us would, but apparently that point of view was not even slightly represented in the decisionmaking process.
-
If you're having a hard time visualizing how big the oil spill is, this site lets you superimpose it on an area whose size you are familiar with.
http://www.beowulfe.com/oil/ (http://www.beowulfe.com/oil/)
-
Damn (http://www.beowulfe.com/oil/#loc=Salt%20Lake%20City%2C%20UT%2C%20USA&lat=40.7607793&lng=-111.8910474&x=-111.880061071875&y=40.46888874646125&z=7).
-
It tracks the interstates surprisingly closely. (http://www.beowulfe.com/oil/#loc=Salt%20Lake%20City%2C%20UT%2C%20USA&lat=40.7607793&lng=-111.8910474&x=-111.880061071875&y=40.46888874646125&z=7)
-
(http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l38lqwC7BO1qzpwi0o1_500.jpg)
-
It tracks the interstates surprisingly closely. (http://www.beowulfe.com/oil/#loc=Salt%20Lake%20City%2C%20UT%2C%20USA&lat=40.7607793&lng=-111.8910474&x=-111.880061071875&y=40.46888874646125&z=7)
If you are suggesting we absorb the oil spill with Mormons, I'm right there with you.
I know that polygamy would be good for something.
-
plus all that underwear
-
Sigh. I can't articulate how I feel about this - I can only cuss, cuss, cuss.
Hey, since we're getting bummed by ecotastrophes, let's hear it for the Great Pacific Garbage Patch! It's twice the size of Texas! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch#Effect_on_wildlife)
-
the thing about BP is that the culture might be a little bit stupid. I don't know I don't work there but maybe the corporate culture is kind of stupid. The CEO maybe he took responsibility for the leak, but that is exactly the problem. He's not responsible. It's the guys working on the rig who were responsible. But when the culture doesn't empower them to take responsibility, and instead trains them to follow orders, even when those orders are stupid...
so anyway. I'm on skype if anyone wants to chat. onthenickel is my name.
going to work now. christ.
-
the thing about BP is that the culture might be a little bit stupid. I don't know I don't work there but maybe the corporate culture is kind of stupid. The CEO maybe he took responsibility for the leak, but that is exactly the problem. He's not responsible. It's the guys working on the rig who were responsible. But when the culture doesn't empower them to take responsibility, and instead trains them to follow orders, even when those orders are stupid...
so anyway. I'm on skype if anyone wants to chat. onthenickel is my name.
going to work now. christ.
I wonder what Nabu thinks about this, being, you know, employed by a major oil company and all. But I haven't had the heart to ask him. I figure if he had an opinion he didn't mind sharing, it would have been on Facebook already.
-
http://touamb.com/index.php?action=profile;u=7
Last Active: August 31, 2009, 11:07:29 AM
-
the thing about BP is that the culture might be a little bit stupid. I don't know I don't work there but maybe the corporate culture is kind of stupid. The CEO maybe he took responsibility for the leak, but that is exactly the problem. He's not responsible. It's the guys working on the rig who were responsible. But when the culture doesn't empower them to take responsibility, and instead trains them to follow orders, even when those orders are stupid...
I think the idea is that the CEO is responsible for the corporate culture. If the culture trains them to cut corners and ignore safety protocols ...
-
What AW said. Tim Dickinson had a pretty thorough run-down on how we got here:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/111965?RS_show_page=0
Bottom line: The oil companies said "Trust us, we know what we're doing," and the Bush administration, in typical neo-conservative fashion, said "You got it, that's fine," and imposed little to no regulation. The Obama administration, despite saying they were going to fix shit like that, pretty much didn't. And in typical American corporate fashion, BP ignored reports and tests that indicated Deepwater Horizon may have problems, no doubt because it would have been too expensive to fix.
Plenty of blame to go around.
-
The Obama administration, despite saying they were going to fix shit like that, pretty much didn't.
FWIW, the lag time on changing Federal rules and regulations is enormous. I they'd have starting trying to change the rules on day 1 of the administration it's doubtful that the new version would be in effect yet.
-
Planet Money (http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/06/11/127772998/the-friday-podcast-sex-drugs-and-regulation) had a god podcast this week examining just why all of these regulated industries have been going through crisis lately. The conclusion they drew in regards to oil was that the regulators had some pretty huge conflicts of interest. The same agency responsible for making sure that the drilling is done safely, collects the revenue from leasing the land that BP is drilling on. There's no explicit bonuses, but the more money flowing into an agency the easier the lives of those people are.
-
An agency collecting money from the industry it regulates is not exactly a stunning revelation. In fact I can't think of one that doesn't work like that.
-
An agency collecting money from the industry it regulates is not exactly a stunning revelation. In fact I can't think of one that doesn't work like that.
True, however, what matters is where the money goes after it's collected. Do the licensing fees go in to the "General fund" or are they earmarked somehow for the agency. Virtually always, at least in state government, revenues go into the general fund.
-
FWIW, the lag time on changing Federal rules and regulations is enormous. I they'd have starting trying to change the rules on day 1 of the administration it's doubtful that the new version would be in effect yet.
This is true. Of course, this also brings to mind the question of how much could they change even if they really wanted to? And do they even really want to? Oh sure, all of a sudden everyone is pro reregulation, but had this not happened, we would have probably gone for at least a few more years with essentially the same regulatory mechanisms and climate for big oil.
The oil spill is kinda bad. The 11 dead workers isn't that great either. But the real problem, the real travesty, in my mind, is the fact that BP, year in and year out, acts as a giant sink, sucking up wealth and power from people who have less, and redistributing it to people who already have enough, in some cases way more than enough. 11 dead workers is small potatoes compared to how many people die every day due to not being able to afford health care due to not having enough money and power to get it.
Sorry, I didn't set out to hijack this thread. Feel free to split this off if anyone seriously wants to discuss this.
My position is that hey, free market blah blah blah and trickle down blah blah blah is all BS. work hard and pay your dues and you can be not poor too. People who are poor - it's all their fault. No, not how it works. In a hierarchical eco-system, there are small giraffe and there are big giraffe. By definition, not every small giraffe can grow to be a big giraffe. The system doesn't work that way. There is no such thing as equality. There is only oppression. And you know what, no, not everyone is equal.. some people have a little more skill, work ethic, and plain dumb luck than others. But does that make them less deserving of health care or a nice house or any of that than others? Does that make them more deserving of an obscene amount of wealth and power than others? Fu#k no.
-
FWIW, the lag time on changing Federal rules and regulations is enormous. I they'd have starting trying to change the rules on day 1 of the administration it's doubtful that the new version would be in effect yet.
This is true. Of course, this also brings to mind the question of how much could they change even if they really wanted to? And do they even really want to? Oh sure, all of a sudden everyone is pro reregulation, but had this not happened, we would have probably gone for at least a few more years with essentially the same regulatory mechanisms and climate for big oil.
The oil spill is kinda bad. The 11 dead workers isn't that great either. But the real problem, the real travesty, in my mind, is the fact that BP, year in and year out, acts as a giant sink, sucking up wealth and power from people who have less, and redistributing it to people who already have enough, in some cases way more than enough. 11 dead workers is small potatoes compared to how many people die every day due to not being able to afford health care due to not having enough money and power to get it.
Sorry, I didn't set out to hijack this thread. Feel free to split this off if anyone seriously wants to discuss this.
My position is that hey, free market blah blah blah and trickle down blah blah blah is all BS. work hard and pay your dues and you can be not poor too. People who are poor - it's all their fault. No, not how it works. In a hierarchical eco-system, there are small giraffe and there are big giraffe. By definition, not every small giraffe can grow to be a big giraffe. The system doesn't work that way. There is no such thing as equality. There is only oppression. And you know what, no, not everyone is equal.. some people have a little more skill, work ethic, and plain dumb luck than others. But does that make them less deserving of health care or a nice house or any of that than others? Does that make them more deserving of an obscene amount of wealth and power than others? Fu#k no. These f#cking CEOs are not that f#cking special. Anyone earning more than 100k a year is obscene. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.
-
Hahahahahahaha!
Yeah that was some quality trolling. I lol'd.
-
I'm not trolling.
yeah man... these CEOs... they're just dumb people like you and me, only difference is, they're dumb people with even more money. This in some ways typically makes them even dumber.
100k a year... 100m a year... while meanwhile there's kids starving in China for want of 100 dollars a year.
-
I'm not trolling.
yeah man... these CEOs... they're just dumb people like you and me, only difference is, they're dumb people with even more money. This in some ways typically makes them even dumber.
100k a year... 100m a year... while meanwhile there's kids starving in China for want of 100 dollars a year.
your menstruating heart
it aint bleedin enough for two
-
while meanwhile there's kids starving in China for want of 100 dollars a year.
You realize that there will be starving people whether or not a CEO gets paid a million dollars a year, right? Theres no connection there, its not a zero sum game, kiddo.
-
tell that to bill gates. he seems to think spending his money is making a difference.
-
not a zero sum game? Are you sure? You should elaborate on that argument.
With respect to CEOs being paid a million dollars or not, is it the fact of the CEO being paid a million dollars or not that does or doesn't impact the life of some starving kid, or, is it the overall system that results in the CEO being paid a million dollars that impacts the life of the kid?
-
i'm not ignorent just because I knows what that you don't
-
so you are saying that there is no such thing as a global economy? economic actions do not effect anyone? this seems insane. Like, isn't the concept of economics that money moving around does things.
like, if my dad donates part of his paycheck to some organization that helps kids who are starving in china, how is this not an example of those two things being related?
I am saying this in a stupid way, but, you are not actually saying anything. You are not actually saying anything about why what he is saying is stupid, you're just calling him an ignorant piece of shit.
Which makes you an asshole.
-
I appreciate the deconstruction, and I agree with it, except I'm not sure his statement makes him an asshole, not 100% anyway.. We're kind of mixing subjectivity and objectivity... We're evaluating objective arguments in part with subjective perception of the people making those arguments, and it is true that in some respects I am a rabble rousing shit. This is more true from some people's perspectives than it is from the perspectives of others...
I think that everyone should be required to write a two page essay on how the world works.
-
I am a rabble rousing shit.
-
exactly. That's why some people will never believe X Y or Z no matter how strong the evidence. Because their perception of reality is not rooted in science or reason, but instead is rooted in subjective perception, which in turn leads to chauvinism and America.
-
good point. or, on the other hand, we could focus on changing our own system for the better. i like that plan better.
-
I'm more concerned that y'all are actually trying to engage in this argument with shithead.
Come on now, it's much more fun when we troll ourselves about politics.
-
the guy who always real-life trolls me just literally said "i'm trolling this guy" to me. I give up at the internet forever.
-
My cat's breath smells like cat food.
-
But what about your pug's?
-
There are too many people on this planet.
-
There are too many people on this planet.
Amen.
-
Too many dicks on the dancefloor.
-
Too many dicks on the dancefloor.
Too many dudes
With too many dicks,
Too close to my shit
Too hard to meet chicks
I need better odds
More broads, less rods
I came to do battle
Skedaddle with the cattle prods
Too many men
Too many boys
Too many misters
Not enough sisters
Too much time on, too many hands
Not enough ladies, too many mans
-
Hmmm, how can I profit off of this oil spill?
-
Hmmm, how can I profit off of this oil spill?
collect the oil and sell it on ebay.
-
NASA's Near Earth Observatory has a dramatic (and enormous) photo (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/44000/44375/USA7_TMO_2010170_lrg.jpg) of the current extent of the spill. 10MB, so Alaskan refugees might just want to imagine it for now.
-
I have no idea who he is, but I like this guy (http://wimp.com/fareedzakaria/).
-
he's the editor of newsweek international, that's a clip from his international news show on cnn. he visits the daily show pretty regularly. pretty cool guy. eh criticizes the news people and doesn't afraid of anything.