The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Wild Card => Topic started by: linear on May 30, 2010, 10:00:32 am
-
Irregardless of this (I don't really care about this- I've said it before- gay marriage, legalize all drugs and prostitution before I care about anything else) I am pretty sure Obama is the person who makes me stop voting.
Yeah man I'm kinda with Keith on this one. I see a tremendous amount of political acumen in Obama's postures and actions and also in his inactions. I understand that Obama is making the best of a bad situation. He's only one person, and America has gotten increasingly conservative over recent decades. The military industrial complex has gotten bigger and bigger... the first thing they do when they get a new president is convince him that they're too big to fail, and make him feel like the special commander in chief -- Regulatory capture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture) 101.
But by playing the middle of the road, Obama is failing to push for the middle to move left. So it isn't going to move left. Meanwhile conservatives are pushing for the middle to move right. I personally put in as much of my own time and money as I could to support Obama's election. I couldn't contribute much time or money, but I did what I could. I was there in Grant Park for his victory speech. I think part of the appeal of supporting Obama was the idea that he needed your support, because he was left of center, and further, that he would use your support to push for left of center policy. Well, if he isn't pushing for left of center policy, and if he isn't trying to push the country's ideology left of center, then, does he really need my support? Clearly he's positioning himself so as to need my support as little as possible.
Yes, obviously Obama's overall administration is going to be more left of center than if a Republican had gotten elected. Obviously his Supreme court appointees are going to be more to the left of center than to the right. These are all substantive things. But how much of an impact can these things really make when the entire populace becomes more and more conservative and uneducated? I think the populace needs symbolic leadership - the type of leadership that would stand up and say fuck it, let's legalize gay marriage, THC, or whatever. As Sacha Baron Cohen's work has shown us, the American mind is often frighteningly small. Much of America is a very small and rural place. And here is Obama, content to mold himself so that he fits into this regressive culture, rather than attempting to substantively lead this culture to a better place.
Sure, trying to put the spotlight on left of center thinking would cost him and the party political capital in the short term, but if you only fight battles that you're sure to win, in the long term you lose the war.
So I'm not voting for Obama next time around. I've decided to vote independent. Tell me if you think that it's childish or naive of me... Maybe it is... Maybe I'm like a kid breaking all my toys so no one else can play with them, given the fact that by voting for anyone other than Obama, I'm helping to give the election to the Republican candidate. I dunno about that logic though. That logic seems to be asking me to take responsibility for the votes of others while eschewing responsibility for my own vote. On a logical level I know I should vote for Obama, and I was more than happy to do so the first time around. On an emotional level however, it's just not going to happen a second time around.
On a slightly different subject, I think that the best thing that Obama could do would be to not run in 2012, but to run again in 2016. This would allow the accumulated good will which is directed at Obama to redirect it's self towards the Democratic party in general. After Obama's term is up in 2016, or after he loses in 2012, whichever happens, the Democratic party is so fucked, because Obama was a freak of demographics. Obama may be president, but the USA is more conservative than it's ever been since segregation, and it's getting worse day by day. It's so bad that it takes a friggin' oil spill the size of the gulf of Mexico to wake Americans up to a little reality.
Sorry for the negative vibe in the post here kids, it's just the end of the world. We're all going to die. And God hates us all. Oh well. Pass the spliff.
-
Pfft, America. It's all gone downhill since we left you to your own devices.
ACCEPT OUR GLORIOUS OVERSEAS RULE ONCE MORE AND BOW DOWN TO THE CLEGGATRON
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01529/cameron-clegg_1529392c.jpg)
-
Judy gets a can and Shithead loses one.
-
Sorry for the negative vibe in the post here kids, it's just the end of the world. We're all going to die. And God hates us all. Oh well. Pass the spliff.
I don't know. I like this bit.
-
thanks Miles
4/20 for erryone
I think A I U should stop mapping to Shithead. It's kind of insulting. A I U has feelings too. And there's so much more to my art than smearing my own feces on a wall. I'm multidimensional.
-
There are other walls?
-
The dude is right though. See, I pick those three things- I would like a nice safety net/health care as well- cause they are god damned obvious and are right and are the moral thing to do, so stop fuck*ng bickering and make a better place for millions in one day. It would show this person didn't care about politics or the prison industrial complex and instead cared about doing what is right, whether it got him re-elected or not.
-
I think A I U should stop mapping to Shithead. It's kind of insulting. A I U has feelings too. And there's so much more to my art than smearing my own feces on a wall. I'm multidimensional.
Wait, you're A I U??? My god, we never suspected a thing!
-
except, when he didn't get re-elected, we'd end up with like... Palin... who would undo everything he did, plus more.
-
The dude is right though. See, I pick those three things- I would like a nice safety net/health care as well- cause they are god damned obvious and are right and are the moral thing to do, so stop fuck*ng bickering and make a better place for millions in one day. It would show this person didn't care about politics or the prison industrial complex and instead cared about doing what is right, whether it got him re-elected or not.
I'm with you almost 100% on these three issues. We're still talking about gay marriage, drugs and prostitution right? But other than gay marriage, maybe (I don't recall his campaign stance exactly, and perhaps it's still possible the issue could be decided by the courts), it's not like Obama is reversing his position here, is it? I don't think he ever campaigned on drugs and prostitution, so I don't see how you can think that the fact he's not pushing for legalization is a game changer. And I'd also challenge you to show me a poll demonstrating that the majority, or even a large portion, of Americans support such action when it comes to prostitution and all drugs. I mean are you talking about the total legalization of drugs and prostitution in all jurisdictions? Your right to smoke meth and your right to get laid in exchange for money are not constitutionally protected and so it's going to require actual legislation by people elected by members of the public. And say Obama did agree with you on these issues, well, what then? What could he possibly do? Propose legislation? You'd still have the same problem I mentioned above. If you really feel strongly about these issues, it's going to be necessary to change minds. Which is not going to happen by posting to a message board created to discuss a comic featuring alive stuffed animals and talking cats. Too many of us already agree with you. And yes I'm implicating myself intentionally. I don't do nearly enough to change things that I care about.
except, when he didn't get re-elected, we'd end up with like... Palin... who would undo everything he did, plus more.
Inev's right, and that's why it's necessary for someone like Obama to compromise. One can argue about how much compromise is too much, but the reason why someone like Palin could be elected is that a lot of Americans agree with her. It's just the reality of our system. The Obama administration has serious flaws, and any realistic liberal has a long list of issues with it. But if in 2012 it's a choice between Obama/Biden and Romney/Palin, or Palin/Beck (http://www.politicususa.com/en/Palin-Beck-2012) (yes, Glenn Beck), or some other nightmarish ticket, it makes no sense to drop out entirely. We won't be talking about Tweedledum and Tweedledee, regardless of what Nader may say.
So while I don't think it's reasonable to single Obama out here as a reason to stop voting, I do understand the exhaustion and frustration that comes along with caring about controversial political issues over which you have no power. So don't use Obama as an excuse to drop out. Rather, this (http://www.slate.com/id/2107240) is why you shouldn't vote.
Right now there is discussion among democrats in my congressional district about whether we should punish Jim Matheson for his disappointing voting record. It's tempting, but the fact is if he doesn't run, another this guy (http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Jason_Chaffetz.htm) will get elected.
-
B) It'll take me just that much longer to get my Evil Empire.
It will have all been worth it, then.
-
Chill out, Ash Vader. You'll get your evil empire eventually. Just like I'll win the powerball. Bound to happen.
-
Yeah, well he was asked multiple times and multiple times implied he was going to change pot laws, I could look it up but fuck it. Also, I don't think I need to say anything about gay marriage. If a person thought in an even slightly liberal way that would be a non-issue. If he did those two things I would be happy enough. He should do it all, but those two would at least be a start.
-
And if he doesn't do everything we want, we might as well have Hitler.
Because, you know, the President gets to set each state's laws on gay marriage by Executive Order. And each and every one of the 535 members of Congress will accede to his every whim on marijuana -- he need but ask. I mean, the guy's been frittering away his time saving the economy and passing health-care reform. He needs to get busy working on things he doesn't really have the authority to do.
-
How'd that work for FDR or Lincoln? The economy he saved by giving banks money that they could lend back to us? The banks who are still running the exact same as before? The Heath care reform that is way to big of a compromise that won't go into effect til I'm dead?
-
You're absolutely right. Things aren't perfect yet.
So, let's give up on trying to make them better.
-
I'm not quitting shit, but I am not voting for another major party canidate not named kucinich.
I am also not sure that things getting worse wouldn't be better. Maybe letting Palin burn this shit to the ground would be the fastest way to get a reasonable society.
-
See, the difference is when we say that we are right. You are either wrong, selgiraffe or ignorant.
-
i don't know, we just had basically 30 years of unmooring and destruction and i'm kind of waiting for the rebuilding to start. reagan, bush 1, clinton, bush 2; i don't know that we're any better off as a planet than we were during the cold war.
-
gimme Teddy R. and LBJ any day of the week. Those were dudes who knew how to Get Shit Done.
-
Screw those guys, man. I want my Nixon and another J. Edgar.
Nixon??!! That RINO socialist?
-
I'm not quitting shit, but I am not voting for another major party canidate not named kucinich.
I am also not sure that things getting worse wouldn't be better. Maybe letting Palin burn this shit to the ground would be the fastest way to get a reasonable society.
Maybe Dennis needs to be the power behind the throne and let Elizabeth run for the President. If we're going to elect on looks, I'd take her over Palin any day.
-
I don't mean to be a dick but none of you are making any sense
-
I voted for Kodos.
-
If you keep electing the least of the possible evils, the hope is that you slowly progress to someone with very little evil, to continue the turn of phrase.
Some of the best changes happen over the course of generations and, sure, that sucks because we're only given so many years of membership into this damned human race but that is the ticket you're given and that's no reason to spite future folks taking The Ride out of simple impatience.
Obama ain't perfect but John McCain probably would'a turned most of the Arabian desert into glass and... that not having happened is still a win.
These are the things I tell myself so I can sleep at night, sure, but that doesn't necessarily make them ineffective strategies toward governance.
Throw your votes away on psycho narcissists who talk a good game like Ralph Nader, just to prove some goddamned point, and instead of Al Gore winning and being a mostly-well-meaning-slightly-compromised president, you end up with a dude born with a silver oil derrick in his mouth, trying to burn the world down because White Rapture Jesus told him to.
Consider the myth of Ragnarok: the good guys can never stop the end of the world, all they can do is wake up and put it off another day.
That's more or less how I vote, I think. Sometimes we must change by fractions not whole numbers. Sometimes we can't change at all, just hold off The Bastards from making it worse and... in our goddamned mayfly lives, maybe that IS winning.
-
But... but...
Then I couldn't have made all those cultural references and pretend that I'm clever!
-
I find that "blind faith in the face of insurmountable evidence" really works for me.
As a life strategy in general, and specifically when it comes to politics and religion.
-
I find that "blind faith in the face of insurmountable evidence" really works for me.
It's funny how you can agree with people so much in some ways and be completely opposite in others.
This isn't just a glib observation by the way, I've been noticing a bit lately how many of my friends who I agree with about so many things are operating from completely different first principles.
-
It's funny how you can agree with people so much in some ways and be completely opposite in others.
This isn't just a glib observation by the way, I've been noticing a bit lately how many of my friends who I agree with about so many things are operating from completely different first principles.
For the record, I was being sort-of flip and sort-of serious.
I mean, I vote because I believe it will make a difference, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. Why? Because it makes me feel better to believe that, and it doesn't hurt anything or anybody. And maybe it does, in some small way, matter -- not today, not tomorrow, but someday, when my grandkids are having grandkids, the world might be different because enough people like me took the smallest possible action and helped elect a slightly-less-evil version of President.
This is also the reason I pray for people in need, regardless of their personal beliefs about God. Might help, can't hurt.
It feels better to believe in a higher power than not. I've tried it both ways, and the latter just results in my feeling confused and angry all the time. So I *choose* to believe in a loving God, and I *choose* to believe in democracy, because to allow disbelief and disillusionment to cloud my worldview is to succumb to despair.
However, YMMV. I certainly understand that to many (most) people of intelligence, this sort of willful self-delusion is unfathomable.
Fortunately, both my God and my government promote tolerance.
-
It feels better to believe in a higher power than not. I've tried it both ways, and the latter just results in my feeling confused and angry all the time. So I *choose* to believe in a loving God
I am not trying to start a debate, but find it interesting that I have also tried it both ways and come to the opposite conclusion. But I should also point out that I have never not been confused and angry all the time, so this probably says much more about certain psychological traits I have. I just feel less confused and angry as a non-believer.
-
Yeah, same for me, it's not the 'willful self delusion' thing, I do that about plenty of stuff, it's more that I go nuts if I'm asked to just let something go and not overanalyse it.
We're all as the inexorable accumulation of random chance, selective pressures and environmental influences made us.
Or, y'know, whatever.
-
We're all as the inexorable accumulation of random chance, selective pressures and environmental influences made us.
You can be that if you want to. I'm a beautiful and delicate snowflake, just the way God made me.*
*Through selective pressures and environmental influences
-
You can be that if you want to. I'm a beautiful and delicate snowflake, just the way God made me.*
I never claimed not to be a beautiful and delicate.