The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: pmcd9 on September 08, 2010, 04:32:05 pm
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What a topsy turvy world we live in. Seems a lot of people on the left are up in arms because a minister somewhere wants to burn the quran. I haven't read much beyond the headlines, but I presume this preacher is a right wing nutjob.
But aren't the roles reversed here? We've had these fights before, but when it's the American flag in question it's the right that is all up in arms and the left that stands in defense of their rights.
So is the left anti flag burning now? Or does this just apply to the Quran?
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I think that the more responsible voices on the left have said of flag burning:
"it's a potentially offensive gesture that you probably shouldn't do but that doesn't mean there should be a law against it".
Which, oddly, is the centre-right position on the building giant city blocks away from the WTC site that plans to have a little Islamic prayer room in it.
I don't think anyone's saying that there needs to be a law against burning the Quran, nobody sane anyway.
They're just saying the dude's an asshole and being needlessly dickish in a tense time.
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The other difference is we talking about our own stuff in that scenario. Is it legal? for an American to burn an American flag? Hell yes. It's both protected speech and a strong form of protest. Is it a good idea? Depending on when and where the answer is anywhere from "maybe not" to "absolutely."
Is it legal for an American to burn somebody else's flag? Yes, see above. Is it a good idea? Almost certainly not because it's likely to stir some serious shit. Unless it's like a Nazi flag.
Imagine how different this conversation would be if this preacher guy was burning a bible.
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Imagine how different this conversation would be if this preacher guy was burning a bible.
Well that's my point exactly. If it were a bible or the flag that was being burned it would be the right up in arms and the left would be out to defend the burners. But the roles have reversed in this case.
I burned a bible (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/218735348/) once. I'm unapologetic.
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I'm a dickhead for freedom.
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Well that's my point exactly. If it were a bible or the flag that was being burned it would be the right up in arms and the left would be out to defend the burners. But the roles have reversed in this case.
I burned a bible (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/218735348/) once. I'm unapologetic.
I also think this would be a different conversation if it were a muslim burning a quaran. Because it's his own stuff.
I think this guy has a right to hold the burning but I also think they media has the right to completely ignore him and effectively remove all impact from the event.
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Well I did take pictures and post them on the internet, but I didn't do the actual thing in front of a temple or anything like that.
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I think this guy has a right to hold the burning but I also think they media has the right to completely ignore him and effectively remove all impact from the event.
The media is going to cover it because it's interesting. But what I found interesting is the hypocrisy I'm seeing by the left on this issue.
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Is it really hypocrisy, though? As far as I know, no one is trying to pass a constitutional amendment banning Koran burning.
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That's just their anti-domestic/pro-international agenda overriding their common sense.
Yeah, that sounds about right, actually.
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there's plenty of domestic muslims who are kind of peeved at this whole thing. far as i can tell, the outrage is based on some combination of fear of retribution by pissed-off muslims and pure shock at the tactics we thought our nation had evolved past. ain't no peace gonna come from this symbol, this burning won't stoke anything but trouble. it just seems to me to be simple-minded fearmongering, a tactic used by the losing side of pretty much every battle in the long war between equality and prejudice.
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Let's also not overlook the significance of the Quran to Muslims. The written word of Allah is much more important in Islam than it is in Christianity or Judaism.
This is less like burning a Bible in front of a church and more like burning a tray of blessed communion wafers in front of a cathedral.
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sensitivity doesn't enter into it. it's their reverence. it's like tearing down a crucifix and shitting in jesus's mouth. spraypainting a hundred swastikas on the wailing wall. grilling up a bunch of steaks next to the ganges.
it isn't like putting a gas tank and match to a pile of harry potter paperbacks. i agree there shouldn't be a law against it, but i also doubt there's going to be any fallout from this stunt that's positive in the least.
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for pete's sake, ash, pack your vitriol away. we agree.
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I don't think anyone's saying that there ought to be a law against Quran burning. Not here, at least.
Though now I kind of wish someone would, just so Ash has someone to take out his frustration on today.
That reminds me -- anyone seen Fanta today?
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you know when i see all caps 'you can fuck off' it just kind of triggers my cool-shit-down reflexes
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I basically don't want to engage this issue with anyone, but all I have to say about it is: lets just redirect all the New York flights to Florida, ok? thanx.
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This country has a goodly share of fucked up racist homophobic Muslim hating assholes. And I will fight to the death to defend their right to spew fucked up racist homophobic Muslim hating shit into the world.
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And I will fight to the death to defend their right to spew fucked up racist homophobic Muslim hating shit into the world.
Me too. And I will also continue to exercise my right to tell them I think they're assholes.
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Yeah the shit flinging goes both ways on this one. I'm just unclear what the objective of the book burner is other than trolling.
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More disagreements should be resolved with arson.
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Yeah the shit flinging goes both ways on this one. I'm just unclear what the objective of the book burner is other than trolling.
that asshole thinks his cockheadedness isnt as bad as what he percieves to be cockheadedness from those other guys.
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I burned a bible (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/218735348/) once. I'm unapologetic.
Ha ha, a Mormon bible. I remember when you posted that. You should burn another one this Saturday in commemoration of the Mountain Meadows Massacre (http://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/).
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I still think that my tendency to shift bibles into the "religious fiction" section when I am bored in a bookstore has an altogether lighter and more whimsical touch.
But that's more an in-joke than protest OR performance art, I s'pose.
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And childish.
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http://libertypundits.net/article/breaking-quran-burning-church-linked-to-west-baptist-church/
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Color me unsurprised.
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Ha ha, a Mormon bible. I remember when you posted that. You should burn another one this Saturday in commemoration of the Mountain Meadows Massacre (http://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/).
Good times! Did you read that article? It was written from a pro LDS point of view and defended the killers.
Yeah, that was a Mormon Bible which is the only thing that saved me from my Mother's wrath. Ha ha ha...
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Good times! Did you read that article? It was written from a pro LDS point of view and defended the killers.
Yeah, that was a Mormon Bible which is the only thing that saved me from my Mother's wrath. Ha ha ha...
Remember when you were burning mormon bibles? Old knucklehead times, man.
You know, I didn't read beyond the first couple paragraphs, but I don't quite agree with your assessment after reading the whole thing.
While the Mormons were heavily persecuted, driven from their homes, and killed en masse several times, their persecution did not justify the killings at Mountain Meadows.
And more to the point:
Evidence suggests that church president Brigham Young was not responsible or even aware of the Mountain Meadows Massacre before it happened. Assuming this is true, and there's no strong evidence to the contrary, one can safely say that responsibility for the massacre rests with local Mormons, not the church itself.
But yeah, definitely a pro-Mormon take on it. I'm not too current on the research, but my understanding is that at best (or worst), the question of LDS leadership complicity in planning it is up in the air, and probably always will be. From what I do understand, there was at least a Nixonian cover-up that may have gone all the way up the chain of command. There are a few well-regarded books on the subject that are on my reading list after, well, more enjoyable stuff.
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Oh yeah, they put a few disclaimers in there, but they went to great pains to paint a sympathetic view of the Mormons as being a persecuted people chased across the country by fearful Mormon haters. and ol' Joe Smith was falsely accused and imprisoned. They even "tarred and weathered" him then killed him along with his brother.
So of course they had to massacre them as they were trying to leave the area.
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Oh yeah, they put a few disclaimers in there, but they went to great pains to paint a sympathetic view of the Mormons as being a persecuted people chased across the country by fearful Mormon haters. and ol' Joe Smith was falsely accused and imprisoned. They even "tarred and weathered" him then killed him along with his brother.
So of course they had to massacre them as they were trying to leave the area.
What they are doing is providing historical context. The quote I provided above, lifted verbatim from the site, directly refutes your last sentence:
While the Mormons were heavily persecuted, driven from their homes, and killed en masse several times, their persecution did not justify the killings at Mountain Meadows.
The real problem is that it's shifting blame directly on the militia even though at the very least church rhetoric was partly responsible for the hysteria that led to the massacre.
Christ, sorry. I know there is probably no one else on the board with interest in this little piece of American history, but it's endlessly fascinating to me. Anyway, I provided the link because the first paragraph provides a brief overview and includes the date of the event.
My take on this issue: of course it's disrespectful, though sometimes hilarious, to burn a sacred book, but I get nervous when I hear forceful condemnations of such an act from political leaders. Freedom of expression is much more important than protecting the delicate sensibilities of people, and while I don't think anyone is yet proposing to ban such an act, it's not unimaginable. I wouldn't be surprised if some legislator somewhere proposes some law to ban something like this under the guise of hate crime legislation.
If we can't burn holy books then the terrists have truly won.
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I have not burned a bible, but Mormons are the only group in this country I am scared of. What is up with the underwear Miles?
Also, I have been to Devil's Gate/ Martin's Cove. My ##### got stuck a few feet in the mud when I jumped off a cliff so I got to walk past all of the mormons pushing hand carts in my underwear. Thank jon smith for the aclu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin%27s_Cove - go to ownership. I will say I went to Independence Rock, Chimney Rock and Devil's Gate/Martin's Cove. Devil's Gate was by far the coolest of the 3/4 (Martin's Cove is right next to Devil's Gate.)
Oh, and actually I used bible papers to roll joints when I was 15 or 16, does that count?
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How come we burn books to show we disrespect them, but we're supposed to burn a flag when we throw it away to show we respect it? And yet some people burn flags as a protest? I think we need to get our symbolism straightened out a little better here.
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Calvin Johnson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_biLZy-TmD0) wonders the same thing.
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How come we burn books to show we disrespect them, but we're supposed to burn a flag when we throw it away to show we respect it? And yet some people burn flags as a protest? I think we need to get our symbolism straightened out a little better here.
Korans are also supposed to be burned when they are disposed of.
A very good album ostensibly about the Mountain Meadows massacre was released last year. I have not read up on the lyrics or explored the history enough to confirm the connection.
http://www.avclub.com/articles/elliott-brood-mountain-meadows,34250/
Edit: My wife and her friend were obsessed with Mormon origins and Mormon fundamentalists. Under the Banner of Heaven and all that stuff. Then her friend converted to Mormonism. Woah!
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Oh, and actually I used bible papers to roll joints when I was 15 or 16, does that count?
Only to God.
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Korans are also supposed to be burned when they are disposed of.
WHAT.
Seriously, can't we just not be a dick to a stranger's holy book.
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With flag burning I feel like there's always some level of self criticism there, it's say 'I'm so disgusted with my country that this is what I'm doing' but at least you're owning the thing you're being angry at and want to change.
Burning someone else's holy book feels more like an attack on another culture, blaming something external for all your problems, I think that for some people there wouldn't be a big leap between burning the book and burning the people who wrote it.
As has been said, most defenses of flag burners are about whether or not it should be illegal, which is only even an issue because the fringe people on the other side of politics like to bang on about how it should be illegal. It would be interesting to know where this group stand on it.
I don't see a contradiction between thinking flag burning should be legal and Quran burning is offensive. Hell, they can both be legal AND offensive. Though the words I'd prefer to use are hateful, petulant and downright childish. Seriously, 3000 people die, a nation comes together and less than 10 years later the best publicised memorial is a group of small town bigots using it as an excuse to hate on brown people, poor show.
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well, a couple months after 3000 people died a group of big-city bigots turned that into an excuse to hate on brown people, so that particular poor show started long ago.
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This Saturday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdtFk_V6A4M[God Hates the Koran for being a Fag Day[/url)
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Breaking News Alert
The New York Times
Thu, September 09, 2010 -- 5:13 PM ET
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Florida Minister Cancels Burning of Korans on 9/11
The pastor planning a burning of the Koran on Saturday said
he will cancel the event, adding he plans to meet with the
imam planning to build an Islamic center near ground zero.
ain't no law needed
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If the pastor and the imam have a press conference and just start making out, that'd be wonderful.
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beer summit mk 2
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More seriously, could this pastor just be calling the meeting so that he can kill the other people while there?
I hate that this is a real possibility but I've learned to never overestimate religious extremists.
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ain't no law needed
Not to fear, there's no shortage of kooks (http://www.ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t) willing to steal the torchlight. No points for guessing who - its obvious, I think.
LFM's faith in fundie tendencies is no doubt secure.
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http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=129636299
I like Geoff Nunberg, even though he never sent me comments on my paper that I was really proud of. (for his class. I am not some nutjob who sent him a random paper.)
Also he was a HUGE name-dropper. I had never known that people did this for real.
But basically this is what I think about "sensitivity."
also, in re: ash's comment about liberals having a "pro-international/anti-domestic bias," I realized this is maybe true of me, for the same reason I have higher standards for myself than I have for other people. WE'RE AMERICA, DAMNIT. DIDN'T YOUR FOUNDING FATHER RAISE YOU BETTER THAN THIS?
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also, in re: ash's comment about liberals having a "pro-international/anti-domestic bias," I realized this is maybe true of me, for the same reason I have higher standards for myself than I have for other people. WE'RE AMERICA, DAMNIT. DIDN'T YOUR FOUNDING FATHER RAISE YOU BETTER THAN THIS?
This.
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Also he was a HUGE name-dropper. I had never known that people did this for real.
Actually, come to think of it, the one professor I had at Syracuse who did the talking-head thing on cable shows was also the worst name dropper I have ever met.
And the most insecure human being alive.
Much worse than even the four or five years of, like, running with people trying to get into the entertainment industry who you would think would be like that.
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was also the worst name dropper I have ever met.
I assume you mean something like he dropped names so often that it was really obnoxious, but I like the idea of someone being, like, really bad at name-dropping.
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Obnoxious.
Like telling us that he was buddies with the producers of a show and then showing a clip where a minor character was named after him.
Just... opening a lecture with that.
Not even in the first lecture, to break the ice and then be self-depricating.
Opened a random lecture with it. You wanted to just squeeze him and see if vinegar and water shot out.
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Nice signature. That song is so fuck*ng good. I get to see Built to Spill for the second time this summer a week from tomorrow. It never gets old.
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If the pastor and the imam have a press conference and just start making out, that'd be wonderful.
I propose sloppy make outs to replace book burning as the international sign of protest.
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"Love and hate, they are merely two sides of the same coin." (http://www.theonion.com/articles/sexual-tension-between-arafat-sharon-reaches-break,99/)
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http://www.slate.com/id/2266870/ (http://www.slate.com/id/2266870/)
Interesting take on the whole thing.
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Nice signature. That song is so fuck*ng good. I get to see Built to Spill for the second time this summer a week from tomorrow. It never gets old.
They're playing in PDX again in November. I haven't decided yet. Fantastic show ,though.
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If I find like really cheap airfare I may go to that one, too. That, or the next week in Seattle. I like the venue in Seattle a lot better.
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Well the book burning was canceled so we all fell for this lunatic's self publicity stunt.
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Never before had I thought that we could label someone "the Lady Gaga of extremist Christian fundamentalists" but, goddamnit, we got ourselves a winner in Terry Jones.
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Absolutely. But when other countries are used as exemplars instead of the history and foundation of this particularly unique nation I leave the room. I don't think America needs to cast its eyes outward for a model so much as look inward and rediscover its soul.
Gosh, you sound awfully sensitive.
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Why? You volunteeering to suck my cock 'till I feel all better? Because I think that might help me bring me a little more in touch with my feelings.
Pot or dxm works too
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Pot or dxm works too
DXM, ugh. I haven't even thought about robo-tripping in years.
I'll just rub some DMSO on it and walk it off.
*sniff*
You have to have LSD in the DMSO to get the proper effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DaZacuYUDE
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not on the sofa, fellas
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Absolutely. But when other countries are used as exemplars instead of the history and foundation of this particularly unique nation I leave the room. I don't think America needs to cast its eyes outward for a model so much as look inward and rediscover its soul.
Friend, point me to the period in time of american history when there was this Glenn Beckian utopian expression of its soul? I keep hearing this language from Glenn Beck, but its never clear what we're "returning to" in his mind
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Probably when we threw off the chains of royal oppression across the sea, that we might be ruled by...
Our own locally-grown white male Protestant middle-aged landed gentry?
Probably when we pulled together as a country regardless of class race and gender to defeat the Nazis...
While throwing our own Japanese into prison camps and, afterwards, trying our damnedest to put women's and minority rights back into the Pandora's Box from whence they came?
Probably when we stood as one, in the face of the 9-11 tragedy...
And went shopping for bumper magnets while drone planes killed hoardes of dusky civilians that had nothing to do with it?
Yikes. The Money Spider and myself totally agreeing, if for different reasons perhaps.
EDIT:
Christ, that was horribly fuck*ng glib.
I think what I would mean to say is that... America's soul is in looking forward, not looking inward.
Our nation has been the least-bad in a world of horrible places not because we have had some kind of internal perfection but because we, much of the time anyway when the priests and the moneychangers did not rule so very much, kept striving forward toward the good and the better, kept trying to be better to each other.
Our soul is on the receding horizon of our understanding of how humans are supposed to treat each other and the pursuit of that ever distant goal.
Or at least it was. Fuck, I don't know.
If we're pretending to take people like Sarah Palin seriously, maybe we're lost.
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Personally the idea of returning to America's past does not appeal to me. The past when people owned slaves? The past when women couldn't vote? The past when blacks had to drink from separate water fountains? I think we can do better than America's past.
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I kind of enjoyed the 90s.
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I kind of enjoyed the 90s.
That was a show on VH1, right?
Starring Michael Ian Black and graphics.
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wait, why didn't a democrat run on the slogan "I kind of enjoyed the 90s."
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Prob'ly because a historical revisionist would somehow say all that was right about the '90s was caused by Reagan cutting the middle classes' throats by cutting the taxes for the rich or, to a lesser extent, Bush the Elder fixing the economy with some kind of Skull and Bones incantation.
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W. was in the stands at the Yanks Rangers game yesterday, I guess some nine eleven tribute or something and he looked awful. Nasty skin wrinkled, death 11 on the neck (wildly appropriate), and a gray mustache so wispy a spider covets. I almost barfed.
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Friend, do not ever again tie me or my sentiments in a sentence to Glenn Beck.
ALSO: You all missed the fuck*ng boat, idjits. I didn't mention shit about the past. I am about doing something new, that'sd every move is a new tradition.
Can we steal ideas from other places? Hell yeah. But the application of those ideas can be tempered by our extant American institutions, a new synthesis following the framework of our traditions rather than a tearing down or replacement with the thought and models of others.
Look boldly to the future and lead, not follow.
LOeave the cowards to eaten as carrion by the crows of history.
This message brought to you by our proud sponsors at Canadian Mist.
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It is a lot easier to "move into the future" if you are not stupidly resistant to doing things that already seem to work.
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I keep hearing this language from Glenn Beck, but its never clear what we're "returning to" in his mind
This is because Glenn Beck knows that the more general he is, the more people will agree with him and watch his show, and thus the more money he can get paid.
Gathering up the dissatisfied and reassuring them that their problems are, in fact, the fault of someone else who they know nothing about... it's been done before, because it works. The good thing is it only works if no one remembers that it worked before. The bad thing is not enough people remember it working before right now.