The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: pmcd9 on October 11, 2011, 01:52:49 am
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It seems to be popular sport today to use Columbus day to "educate" your friends on Facebook about what an evil bastard he actually was. Not someone we should be celebrating. Maybe I had this issue reframed for me when I was very little, but this day has always been about the one really super colossally awesome thing that he did which is, of course, discover this fantastic continent. 2 continents, even when you get right down to it.
Obviously I'm speaking from a European perspective, the white man's perspective. But why not, I'm a white man after all and where would I be if America had never been discovered, never been colonized. It's hard to say. Would I even exist or would my fore bearers, not having the new world to escape to, have been executed for their beliefs? Or, being of Irish decent, would my fore bearers have died of starvation during the potato famine? For that I say God bless Columbus for finding this beautiful place where potatoes don't get famined.
But what about the Indians? It's no lie that they've gotten fucked in every possible way there is to get fucked by the whites and there are many who are still having trouble adjusting to the paradigm shift even generations later. Putting that aside for a moment if possible, what would their life be like if the Europeans had never came? If they could choose, I wonder how many would give up modern society and return to their primitive ways? I'm certain my thinking is naive, but I can't help believe that most native American's benefit from certain western ideas such as, I don't know, living in a house, for instance. Please don't get me wrong, this is not meant as a mockery of native Americans, I don't know about your problems and I'm not trying to judge. It's just an interesting thing to consider. Would/could a well adjusted native American, living in the modern world, want to revert to a society free of western influence?
It's a moot point anyway, we're here to stay fuckers!
Anywhoo, sure, Columbus was a grade A bastard, but you'll not get any Columbus bashing from me. I am glad that he got lost on his way to China. Or to put it more favorably, I'm glad that he believed the world was round.
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for one, im sure modern native folks here and in canada are thankful for modern medical practices. parents dont have to have 48 kids just to get 5 or 6 properly functioning adults nowadays.
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The Irish didn't have potatoes till they got them from the native South Americans, so they got their revenge at least.
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So yes, some of the assumptions you're making are way off base, due I think to a lack of education on the issue.
If they could choose, I wonder how many would give up modern society and return to their primitive ways?
First off, let's imagine imagine that Columbus never landed and the invasion and mass genocides never happened. Why do you assume that the various aboriginal tribes of North America would be incapable of evolving and continuing to develop technologically, socially and politically? This sort of thinking comes from a deeply routed prejudice that aboriginal people were somehow helpless and/or stupid. The European societies of 1492 are nothing like the world of 2011, so why exactly do you assume aboriginal people would be somehow stuck in a "primitive" state if it wasn't for Columbus? If you read up on how the various aboriginal communities and cultures functioned before Columbus, the societies were not particularly primitive - farming, religion, arts, culture, writing systems and hundreds of languages existed prior to European contact.
I'm certain my thinking is naive, but I can't help believe that most native American's benefit from certain western ideas such as, I don't know, living in a house, for instance.
Yeah, you are definitely lacking an education here. The idea that all aboriginal people lived a nomadic life in teepees comes from John Wayne movies and is incredibly far off from the truth. Housing isn't a Western idea, and various aboriginal communities had housing that was no less developed in various aspects than someone living rurally in Europe at the time of invasion. (http://www.native-languages.org/houses.htm)
Columbus' landing on North American soil began a string of genocidal campaigns against the aboriginal people of North America. I've taken a long look at the UN definition of Genocide, researched it extensively over a nearly decade long period of writing my most acclaimed play, and I can say without doubt and with extensive documented proof that every aspect of genocide was enacted upon the Aboriginal People of North America.
Genocide as defined by the UN:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Every single one of these actions was enacted upon aboriginal people by church and state in North America, and the proof of these actions is incredibly easy to find. Smallpox blankets and the Residential School system are some of the more well known acts of genocide, but with a little digging, there's information on forced sterilizations, the nonconsentual adoption of aboriginal children to caucasion families, and a laundry list of clearly stated attempts to wipe out aboriginal peoples in a variety of ways.
If I had the ability, would I go back in time and stop these genocides? Yes. That goes for any genocide, on our soil or elsewhere in the world, but when it comes to the genocide of my own people, especially with all the reading and listening I've done on the topic, I'm particularly certain. The thing is, I know people have the capacity to encounter differing cultures peacefully, and without imposing violence on the other. I don't wish that there was no Western contact or influence. I wish that there was no invasion or genocides.
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but when it comes to the genocide of my own people, especially with all the reading and listening I've done on the topic, I'm particularly certain. The thing is, I know people have the capacity to encounter differing cultures peacefully, and without imposing violence on the other. I don't wish that there was no Western contact or influence. I wish that there was no invasion or genocides.
Can for a measured and respectful reply on a clearly sensitive subject. Also: Education.
This is the kind of stuff we need on Columbus day, rather than the mindless bitching Paul mentioned.
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also, Columbus wasn't even the first Westerner to find the Americas. Although now Wikipedia is confusing me about which Westerner actually found it first.
Did I tell you guys I recently got loaded up with some hardcore White Guilt about my family's history in Chile? I guess I knew on a certain level that my family down there are descended from wealthy landowners, but I did not know how recently this was, and how incredibly fucked up they were. Holy shit.
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Yeah, sorry Smells. I should have left all of that shit out as I knew I was talking out my ass. I should have stuck with my basic point, which is that I'm glad I'm here and much credit for that goes to Columbus. I won't challenge anything you've said other than to say that I don't believe that aboriginal people are helpless or stupid.
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But what about the Indians? It's no lie that they've gotten fucked in every possible way there is to get fucked by the whites and there are many who are still having trouble adjusting to the paradigm shift even generations later.
I just wanted to add that the concept that this genocide ended generations ago is also patently false. The last residential school closed in the 1990's - not generations ago, but within our own life times, residential schools were still working on their mandate of eradication aboriginal culture and identity. Likewise, the 60's Scoop, which was a Canadian government program brought in to replace the residential schools, which was the forced, often non-consensual adoption of aboriginal children to Caucasian parents with the directly stated goal of "eradicating their indianness" ran from the late 1950's thru 1980's. Remember part e) of the UN definition of genocide? Sound familiar? That's the act of genocide against aboriginal people that directly affected me. My mom was adopted out, without her biological father's consent, to a Caucasian family. They were told to not tell her she was aboriginal, even though anyone with two eyes could figure it out. My mom developed mental illness, and is one of the most racist-against-aboriginal-people person you can find. She has deep shame about herself and about her two brownish children. Chicken or egg, I don't know which came first, but it effected my life directly from birth up until now.
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Yeah, sorry Smells. I should have left all of that shit out as I knew I was talking out my ass. I should have stuck with my basic point, which is that I'm glad I'm here and much credit for that goes to Columbus. I won't challenge anything you've said other than to say that I don't believe that aboriginal people are helpless or stupid.
That's okay Paul. I do get a little tired of being the person who's role it is to bring the education, so sorry if there's any snark in my tone.
It being Thanksgiving here today, I was just thinking this morning, as I was walking my dog, that I'm glad we have a day to celebrate and be thankful, regardless of its roots in a very dark past. Needless to say, with my husband surviving his car crash on Wednesday, I've had something really concrete to celebrate with him this weekend. I got to hug him again for the first time since the crash, since he's not in too much pain today. I'm so thankful he survived.
When it comes to Columbus day, what I hear from my US aboriginal friends is a desire to re-frame the day because it's hard from them to see his arrival as anything but the beginning of the worst chapter in their history.
also, Columbus wasn't even the first Westerner to find the Americas. Although now Wikipedia is confusing me about which Westerner actually found it first.
Did I tell you guys I recently got loaded up with some hardcore White Guilt about my family's history in Chile? I guess I knew on a certain level that my family down there are descended from wealthy landowners, but I did not know how recently this was, and how incredibly fucked up they were. Holy shit.
I was always taught it was Leif Ericson who was the first European to land in North America. Not sure if there's been proof of anyone else earlier than him, and I think from what I recall, it's not known what sort of contact he made with any indigenous people.
As for white guilt, it's not about that. There's no point carrying the guilt of ancestors you had no say in the action of. Let's face it, we all know we can't even control our own parents and siblings. It's about forgiving the past and moving on. "When you know better, you do better" that's what Paul... er, um... I mean Maya Angelou says.
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I guess the upsetting thing was that my parents dropped this information into a conversation at dinner with my GF and roommate, and did not seem very bothered by it at all.
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God (or, well, your choice) bless you, Mel.
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When it comes to Columbus day, what I hear from my US aboriginal friends is a desire to re-frame the day because it's hard from them to see his arrival as anything but the beginning of the worst chapter in their history.
Honestly like any other Monday holiday in the US it's already been re-framed as a day to go away for the long weekend or go shopping. We are so bad at honoring historical figures that Paul's post is the only mention I heard or read this year of actual Columbus.
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Honestly like any other Monday holiday in the US it's already been re-framed as a day to go away for the long weekend or go shopping. We are so bad at honoring historical figures that Paul's post is the only mention I heard or read this year of actual Columbus.
Oh that reminds me. Fuck Columbus Day because I never get it off. The only thing it means to me is I can't bank or mail anything.
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Smells, thanks for bringing the education. Having studied minority issues in American history, I knew a good portion of what you said (but by no means all), but I would have felt uncomfortable speaking about a group of which I am not a member.
My mom's people have been here since the 17th century; my dad's people came through Ellis Island in the 1940s. I'm happy to be here and to have been born here, and without Columbus, I certainly wouldn't exist. I'm sorry that my ancestors (on Mom's side) fought with the native people here, ultimately killing them and taking their land. And yes, some of my ancestors were literally soldiers who fought against and killed Iriquois, Miami, and Ottawa tribesmen. I'm not proud of that, but I know that if my mother's family hadn't colonized North America in the 17th century, my father's family would not have been able to come from Poland to escape the genocide that was going on three centuries later.
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My wife came back from her gym early last night - distinctly grumpy. They had closed for Columbus Day. Here in Cali, Columbus Day really is a back burner thing with about as much relevance as Bastille Day. My theory is that her place is a national chain (Curves), so maybe they have to give the day off on account of Easterners.
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Yeah, I have never really had anything special for Columbus day. never the day off of school, people talking about it, etc.
I always thought just no one cared, but it is a thing on the east coast? Also, yesterday my bank was open, but my deposit did not go through on account of it being Columbus day yesterday. Why be open? If they would have been closed or told me that I would have just cashed the check. Instead I massively overdrew, but the deposit will probably go through before the rest.
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From what I hear, the Italian Americans in the big Eastern cities have seized on Columbus day as akin to St Patrick's for the Irish for ethnic pride. If that eventually leads to St Paddy's being a holiday I'm fine with that.
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A zillion years ago when I was growing up in the Bronx my father belonged to a group called Knights of Columbus that I guess was a bunch of Italian guys hanging out. I haven't thought of that in years.
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Sometimes I wish Burns' Night was as big for those of us with Scottish heritage as St. Patrick's. But I suspect that whole haggis thing holds us back.
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Not to mention the kilts.
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A zillion years ago when I was growing up in the Bronx my father belonged to a group called Knights of Columbus that I guess was a bunch of Italian guys hanging out. I haven't thought of that in years.
I now assume your dad was one of the people Jack Nicholson killed in The Departed.
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Honestly like any other Monday holiday in the US it's already been re-framed as a day to go away for the long weekend or go shopping. We are so bad at honoring historical figures that Paul's post is the only mention I heard or read this year of actual Columbus.
No less than 10 people, probably closer to 20 people posted this on their Facebook Wall.
(http://cdn.front.moveon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/columbus-MAIN.jpg)
But anyway, if I'd thought it through, I'd have realized the heart of my anger was probably more about why do people keep posting bullshit on Facebook than caring two shits about what anyone thinks about Columbus.
On a related note, I've been methodically watching all of the Merrie Melodies from start to finish. Some of the early ones were pretty racist and filled with stereotypes. Last nights selection was Sweet Sioux (http://youtu.be/KTfXIMoW0g4) from 1937. Happy Columbus Day everybody.
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Why be open?
Because customers bitch if they aren't open.
Paul, that picture is exactly the thing that we don't need to see/hear on Columbus Day. What gets me is that these people act as if they are outraged, but then do nothing other than post dumb shit on Facebook. I mean, I know that's what the internet is mostly about (besides porn) but I hate that kind of shit.
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I don't know if that comic illustrates outrage. Just "oh hey, Columbus did some fucked up stuff."
I mean, what would you have them do? Move back to Europe?
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Yeah, outrage isn't right.
And I wouldn't have them do anything. But what would they have me do? Wring my hands year after year, burdened by white guilt? Why not draw attention to current issues Native Americans face and make suggestions on how to contribute? Because it's easier to post stupid shit on Facebook. Then at least you look like you care and don't have to do anything.
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I just don't understand why you care. I don't think they want you to do anything. They're just posting a kind of goofy comic that plays off of the awareness that Columbus Day is a kind of funny holiday, if you think about what it is celebrating.
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I don't understand why I care either. Probably making too big a deal out of it, but still am annoyed by it.
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Now if some of those people would do what that comic says and report back, that would make for a lot of more interesting status updates.
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I would like to observe, from a safe distance, what would go down if they happened to choose Asherdan's house.
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A zillion years ago when I was growing up in the Bronx my father belonged to a group called Knights of Columbus that I guess was a bunch of Italian guys hanging out. I haven't thought of that in years.
It's a big group that's all over
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Columbus
I have only a passing familiarity with it, but it's not Italian-specific that I know of.
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It's a big group that's all over
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Columbus
I have only a passing familiarity with it, but it's not Italian-specific that I know of.
I guess it was that Catholic-specific was equivalent to Italian-specific at that place at that time.
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Must holidays seem to be celebrating, at their core, shit that is fairly fucked up.