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Author Topic: Barack Obama...  (Read 13656 times)

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miles

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2004, 07:54:02 pm »

Quote from: "TALKYdude"
I used to be a libertarian until I realized I couldn't stand other libertarians and didn't want to waste my vote any more. I think the libertarian reply to 9/11 (it's our fault! Let's become more isolationist and they'll leave us alone!) finally turned me off the party forever. At least Republicans and Democrats are willing to support a muscular foreign policy. We get about as many wars under Democrats as we do under Republicans, and we would have ended up invading Afghanistan and Iraq no matter who was President. I realized I couldn't deal with this complete denial of America's role in the world, that mainstream libertarians were saying we need to withdraw in on ourselves and try not to be noticed.


As if our foreign policy had no fault.  I think the Libertarian position is a reaction against the sentiment that America should be able to stomp all over the world to satiate its desires without any consideration for other nations or any thought for consequences.  A muscular foreign policy needs to be balanced by lots of debate and at least some restraint.  I assume that you actually argue that America does have an important and unique role in the world, and while I agree with that, our foreign policy has often been based on immoral or unwise considerations.  Of course many of those considerations seemed wise, and even moral, at the time, but part of moving forward is acknowledging and correcting, when possible, the mistakes of the past, well-intentioned or not.

While most people agreed that invading Afghanistan was the correct thing to do (The Nation's editorial board, I think, didn't), it's not clear at all that Iraq would have been invaded regardless of who is President.  I know Kerry supported the potential for an invasion of Iraq, but it's pretty clear that he at least disagreed with the timing.  Who knows what would have happend had we waited.  I certianly don't.  And Dean clearly wouldn't have invaded Iraq, and Gore might not have either.  Republican Pat Buchanan wouldn't have, though I do realize he's not much of a mainstream republican.

I agree that Democrats are just as likely to start wars (just and unjust, if you care to make that distinction) as are Republicans.  For example: Vietnam.  I seriously doubt Iraq will ever equal that mess of a police action.  Also, FDR and Truman destroyed hundreds of thousands of civilians in WWII.  So I'm not arguing specifically for or against either party.  Besides, parties change, often drastically, over time.

And I also agree that isolationism is dangerous and even wrong, especially in light of the mess we and other western nations have left some of the world in, but certainly unrestrained imperialism is more dangerous.  I agree that America is a great nation with unique responsibilities, and has done much good, mostly because of its wealth, and I disagree with isolationism.  But I think our past foreign policy decisions, some dating back to WWI, have some blame in today's mess.

To put all of the cards on the table, I'm a registered Democrat, and I agree, to a certain point, with the Libertarian Party's social policies on drugs, sexual rights and capital punishment (at least I think the party is opposed to the death penalty), but disagree with its foreign and economic policies.
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Order is indeed the dream of man, but chaos, which is only another word for dumb, blind, witless chance, is still the law of nature. - Wallace Stegner

miles

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2004, 08:01:47 pm »

I love Ralph Nader, and while I don't think I would vote for him as President, I respect his campaigning.  I think he received a lot of undeserved criticism for the 2000 elction.  If Gore had been a better candidate, he would slayed Bush.  I mean he was riding on the coattails of a flawed, but very popular President, and 8 years of prosperity.  Nader may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but he was only a straw.  Lots of things went wrong in 2000.  Anyway, I just like Nader.  He kicks ass.  Thanks for seatbelts, Ralph!
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Order is indeed the dream of man, but chaos, which is only another word for dumb, blind, witless chance, is still the law of nature. - Wallace Stegner

TALKYdude

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2004, 05:10:52 am »

While I voted for Nader in 2000, I could never vote for him again after he made the "Israeli puppeteers" comment. No matter what way you slice it that's antisemitic.
miles, your comment (I'm not talking about the Nader one but rather the one before it) is worthwhile and I agree with large portions of it. I've been meaning to reply to you in detail for several hours and just now realized that would never happen DUE TO LAZINESS so I thought I would at least say this.
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arkabee

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2004, 01:27:17 pm »

i voted for Nader in 2000 in an attempt[1] to "make my vote count" by "showing those people" that a two party system made up of members that were interchangable with the other party's members just wasn't going to cut the mustard anymore.

or something.

given that i don't think my one, singular vote in this particular state allowed "Junior" to fuck up my country sinc the election, i have not committed suicide.

But i feel, now, that the status quo has "won",
because even though i know the person i'm voting for in no way shape or form represents me,
i'll vote for them based purely and callously upon the principle of the lessor of multiple evils.

Damn You Status Quo,
Damn You To Hell.



-
[1] "pathetic"
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CortJstr

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2004, 02:32:08 pm »

Quote from: "arkabee"
Damn You Status Quo,
Damn You To Hell.


http://tiA-CAPrl.com/3mz85
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AugustWest

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2004, 02:38:52 pm »

Quote from: "CortJstr"
Quote from: "arkabee"
Damn You Status Quo,
Damn You To Hell.


http://tiA-CAPrl.com/3mz85


This is simply wonderful.
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CortJstr

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2004, 02:46:43 pm »

Quote from: "AugustWest"
Quote from: "CortJstr"
Quote from: "arkabee"
Damn You Status Quo,
Damn You To Hell.

http://tiA-CAPrl.com/3mz85

This is simply wonderful.

I just wish that the description was on the back or something.
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AlohaDawg

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2004, 07:58:17 pm »

Quote from: "miles"
Also, FDR and Truman destroyed hundreds of thousands of civilians in WWII


One needs only to examine the Japanese actions in China, the Philippines, Truk, the Marshalls, and especially their herding of the residents of Saipan and other pacific islands over suicide cliffs (there is FILM of this...mothers throwing babies over the cliff before either jumping themselves or being bayonetted) as they were losing the island to the US Marines to understand that were the US to have invaded Japan there would have been no surrender. There would have been house to house fighting over the entire Japanese home island. Women would have killed their children and fought to the death or suicided.

The bloodbath that would have been the invasion of Japan would have killed more Japanese men, women and children and destroyed more of Japan than the atomic bombs. Also, the Japanese didn't even surrender after the first atomic bomb - that is a good measure of their unwillingness to surrender even with the knowledge of our capability.

The President of the time (Truman) was forced to decide whether to inflict mass casualties on BOTH sides or spare American troops and their families injury and death while accomplishing the same goal. That required letting a genie out of the bottle, and humanity is lessened by it. But it was a foregone conclusion that atomic weaponry would be developed and used eventually. Had we not already won the war on Europe, London would likely have been the first target of the atomic bomb Germany was working on at the same time.

Firebombing Dresden is a different story - that was somewhat inhuman and seemed to be a countervalue attack on soft targets which I don't feel is the most honorable way to prosecute a war.
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miles

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2004, 09:08:36 pm »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
Quote from: "miles"
Also, FDR and Truman destroyed hundreds of thousands of civilians in WWII


snip

The bloodbath that would have been the invasion of Japan would have killed more Japanese men, women and children and destroyed more of Japan than the atomic bombs. Also, the Japanese didn't even surrender after the first atomic bomb - that is a good measure of their unwillingness to surrender even with the knowledge of our capability.

snip snip

Firebombing Dresden is a different story - that was somewhat inhuman and seemed to be a countervalue attack on soft targets which I don't feel is the most honorable way to prosecute a war.


All good points but still the decision was made to slaughter humans wholesale.  Dresden is probably the best example, but the atomic bombs and the bombing of Tokyo should make any person at least a bit uneasy.  I didn't mean to argue against the decision to bomb, but mainly threw it in to support the idea that Democrats can also kick foreigner ass, and that electing a Democrat to the presidency won't usher in a milleneum of peace.

Although I would say some did and still do disagree how the war in Japan would have turned out had we not dropped the bombs.  Surely we would have lost more soldiers, but how many more is still disputed, but your point about the Japanese civillians is pivotal.  If it is true, then the bombs may seem a better choice than to invade.
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Order is indeed the dream of man, but chaos, which is only another word for dumb, blind, witless chance, is still the law of nature. - Wallace Stegner

Limmo

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2004, 10:45:10 pm »

Quote from: "miles"
Although I would say some did and still do disagree how the war in Japan would have turned out had we not dropped the bombs.  Surely we would have lost more soldiers, but how many more is still disputed, but your point about the Japanese civillians is pivotal.  If it is true, then the bombs may seem a better choice than to invade.


A better choice indeed.

Quote from: "miles"
 electing a Democrat to the presidency won't usher in a milleneum of peace.


Maybe not, but getting Bush and the neocons out of the White House certainly wouldn't hurt.
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AlohaDawg

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2004, 11:53:16 pm »

Quote from: "miles"

All good points but still the decision was made to slaughter humans wholesale.  


I agree with that a very difficult decision was made but I think that it's important to remember the context and see what the options may have been. Decisions had already been made in Europe to slaughter 6 million in the holocaust; in Asia the Japanese had been busy enslaving Chinese, Burmese, Filipino and anyone else unlucky enough to capture their attention since 1931. The Chinese claim 30 million slaughtered between 1931 and 1945 and in Nanjing alone, in one winter, (12/37 - 2/38) there were 200,000 civilian and POW deaths and 20,000 rapes.

Does that mean it's justified to vaporize two population centers? No. But I assume that the decision makers had a very good handle on the nature of the enemy and that enemy was not one a war-wearied military could possibly have engaged in an invasion.
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MSC

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2004, 04:03:05 pm »

Quote from: "TALKYdude"
Minnesotans became really disillusioned with Jesse after living through his governorship. I don't know if he really has a lot of political future after that. Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about.


In case anyone is still reading this thread, you do know what you're talking about.  I am a Minnesotan, and you are right.

Also, in case anyone is still reading, I also know Barack Obama.  He was my law professor.  And he is the real deal.
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miles

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2004, 07:03:38 pm »

Quote from: "MSC"
Also, in case anyone is still reading, I also know Barack Obama.  He was my law professor.  And he is the real deal.


Kick ASS!  You...were a law student??
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Order is indeed the dream of man, but chaos, which is only another word for dumb, blind, witless chance, is still the law of nature. - Wallace Stegner

AugustWest

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2004, 07:12:08 pm »

Quote from: "miles"
Quote from: "MSC"
Also, in case anyone is still reading, I also know Barack Obama.  He was my law professor.  And he is the real deal.


Kick ASS!  You...were a law student??


I was a law student.  Before I became a lawyer.
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JorgeFabregas

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Barack Obama...
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2004, 07:24:10 pm »

Thank you for your confirmation that Obama is "the real deal." I have heard that from friends of otherwise-cynical volunteers for him, etc. I am very excited that he's going to be one of our senators.
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