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yes

6 (50%)

no

6 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: November 26, 2005, 04:21:30 pm

[V-Adore]

I'm fascinated by the 50/50 split on the poll question.

I think the split on the poll represents the fact that, well, asking "Yes" or "No" on this question isn't quite asking enough. I was initially hesitant to vote because there was no "Yes, But With Reservations About This Instance" option, for reasons that I have already exposited about at great length to total board apathy. I suspect there are relatively few "yes/no, and DAMN THE TORPEDOES" votes in there and more "well, it depends."

[AugustWest]

I've been trying to get into Merton recently, because I really love his Walnut Street Epiphany

Wouldn't that be his Muhammad Ali Boulevard Epiphany now?

Bozack have you ever read The Sirens of Titan.  I was just browsing through it the other day and your post reminded me of it.

[pmcd9]

This discussion is very moving and emotional.  I haven't voted in the poll because, like V pointed out, it's not a yes or no question.  It's too very gray.  To weigh in, I am a former Baptist who now rejects the Bible.  I believe in morality and I have hope/faith that there is something greater in the universe, but I can't find a religion that offers me any comfort.  I want to place my faith in science because science is more honest about what it doesn't know, but I feel were probably still a million years or more away from science uniting with religion.  The answers are out there, what is the origin of the universe, what lies beyond the grave, etc., but we'll not discover them in our lifetimes.  So I'll face the abyss with my vague concept of what lies ahead.  I'm sure it doesn't matter, whatever happens is gonna happen regardless of my beliefs.

I don't know about the ethics of this particualr exhibit and the people doing the work, but for me, I would love to be put on display in an exhibit such as this.  The title of my particular display, "fuck*ng."

~Paul

[AlohaDawg]

I actually believe it is a yes/no question.

I also tend to believe that as humans both intellectualize and secularize, and as humanistic thought forces out theistic faith (of all kinds, not just Christian), people lose the ability to strongly take a side one way or the other. Conditions are created, what if's begin to take place of what we know (or feel or understand or believe) to be true. And suddenly white and black bleed into gray not because the ANSWER has been diluted, but because the QUESTION has. The answer is still there. (And it could be either answer - the basic component of the answer is that which you base your beliefs and your values on)

This is the value, to me, of my faith: When there is a position I can take based on those values, it's easy for me to take that position in a very black and white way and defend it in my own clumsy-but-confident way, understanding that , for this board anyhow, in general it's likely to be  a minority position.

[miles]

I can easily answer yes, it is ethical, as long as the bodies were legally obtained.

However, I consider my ability to see most things as not black/white as a value.

[AlohaDawg]

I'm developing a thought here -

I probably should have said that I tend to see moral/ethical questions as black and white. Because I believe there is such a thing as good and evil...and once you place good and evil, then moral and ethical questions, to me, of necessity, have to be black and white because the issue is, generally whether something proceeds from (or is proceeding to) a premise (or result) of good or evil, or right or wrong, Godly or Satanic, or whatever you label the opposing choices.

You have to base your values/ethics/morals on something and that something should be a fairly solid something.  That makes the decisions less doubtful (or the 'gray area' smaller/nonexistant) and the temptation to place conditions on the question weaker.

Questions like what kind of cheeee I like the best or anything 100% provable by any human method doesn't fall into this idea I'm developing here.

[V-Adore]

Yeah, I have to say, if we're getting into deeply-held beliefs: as a scientist and (let's be honest here, and also this is not a dirty word) humanist, I believe that the ability to answer ethical and moral questions in shades of grey is an incredible virtue. Not that it's wrong to think things are black or white -- if you have a strong "yes" or "no" on this one, that's entirely respectable -- but the ability to answer ethical questions with full consideration of context, situations of which one might not be aware, and other factors is important. As questions become more complex, answers also become more complex as a necessity.

[Bozack]

Given that, in order for me to maintain my life of comfort, thousands are starving or living in horrible conditions, I have to see things in shades of grey to prevent myself from taking a long walk off a short pier for the benefit of humanity.

[AlohaDawg]

I also think that if you take any complex question you can break it down into simpler questions. What you might come up with is a matrix or patchwork of answers, some of which are  ethical and unethical or right and wrong or whatever and arrive at a conclusion about the larger question.

There are some things that are more unforgivable in, let's say, an ethical question than others - that is, one 'bad' against many goods can still push the question to the unfavorable side. And vice-versa.

I still think at the end, though, the values from which an individual behaves and draws conclusions about morals/ethics questions is really the most fundamentally important component in the process that arrives at the decision.

[Limmo]

as humanistic thought forces out theistic faith (of all kinds, not just Christian

Seems to me that theistic faith ( especially the Christian kind ) is the one doing the forcing out these days.

[AlohaDawg]

as humanistic thought forces out theistic faith (of all kinds, not just Christian

Seems to me that theistic faith ( especially the Christian kind ) is the one doing the forcing out these days.

I'm not.

Faith is individual. In the universe of theistic faith, Christians are a minority.

[Limmo]

I'm not.

I'm not accusing you of anything.  But you stated that humanistic thought is forcing out theistic faith.  Which is not true, certainly not here in America.   No other country in the world has a museum which features humans and dinosaurs co-existing.

Faith is individual. In the universe of theistic faith, Christians are a minority.

Even if you're speaking simply in terms of sheer numbers, that is not true.  Christians are not a minority, especially here in America.

[miles]

To be clear, I have respect for those who are able to see things in black/white that I can only see in gray.  Sometimes I wish I was able to come down definitively on one side when I'm not, and I certainly am able to for a lot of things.  But I also consider it a virtue to see that intelligent people can argue for both sides of an issue nearly equally well a lot of the time.  And not only that, but that there might not be a right answer, at least not for every situation.

Mad props everyone for keeping this whole debate civil.  Stuff of this nature has gotten out of hand before on this board it seems.  These are touchy issues.  In fact, one professor of mine, who teaches a lot of ethical theory classes, has banned any discussion of sex, religion or contemporary politics in class or papers because that sort of discussion tends to get too emotional, and when that happens, it's often the case that people can't do philosophy as well.

[AlohaDawg]

Even if you're speaking simply in terms of sheer numbers, that is not true.  Christians are not a minority, especially here in America.

ReligiousTolerance.org states that 32% (and dropping) of the world is Christian while Islam and Hinduism alone account for 32% together and Islam is growing while Hinduism is stable. Add in Judaism and a few other assorted theistic faiths like Baha'i and Sikhism and it's a fair case to make that Christianity is indeed a worldwide minority and set to continue losing statistical ground to Islam and faiths practiced in growing nations particularly in Asia.  

Like many things, it depends on who you ask - I think the important thing is that Christianity in general is not growing while, particularly, Islam is. And Islam is spreading into Europe rapidly as well.

[arkabee]

ReligiousTolerance.org states that 32% (and dropping) of the world is Christian while Islam and Hinduism alone account for 32% together and Islam is growing while Hinduism is stable. Add in Judaism and a few other assorted theistic faiths like Baha'i and Sikhism and it's a fair case to make that Christianity is indeed a worldwide minority and set to continue losing statistical ground to Islam and faiths practiced in growing nations particularly in Asia.  

um, when i look at a pie chart, and one piece of pie is larger than any single other piece of the pie, i would NEVER even IMAGINE to label that largest piece of the pie a MINORITY.

you want to phrase it as "quite possibly going to be in the future someday maybe dependent on a lot of shit that noone really knows a minority maybe", fine.

---

also, shades of grey.  great.  ya, me too.

all other mitigating factors that i can conceive of point to the fact that i think the society i live in embracing a death culture is BAD.