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[AlohaDawg]

Paul -

That's the hardest question of all. Some see people and meet people who are so able to talk about their faith and their belief and what it means to them, and then they struggle with what that feeling might be. They do the things they feel like they need to do and expect a huge and obvious change. And when they don't see or observe the change in themselves or their circumstances, they assume that it's false for everyone, or they aren't good enough, or that the rest are pretending or in denial. I can say for myself that I have changed so much over the last 14 months and although some important things (job, housing) are up in the air right now, I'm not panicked because God has come through for me every time so far, and I have faith that through my and other's prayer and my hard work good things will happen. And so far, they have.

The Book is not all that you have to go on. My world is full of examples that validate my faith. The Book is a story, a history, a guide but I believe God would rather we lived our lives in positive, righteous and loving ways (to the best of our abilities) and surrender our will to His in our everyday life than dedicate our lives to the study of a very old book. Not that it isn't important to know and understand the Bible, but it's a means to the end, not the end itself.

I don't know if you're missing anything. If you have been baptised and accepted Christ, if you are rejecting sin and temptation, expressing your acknowledgement, contrition, thanksgiving and supplication through prayer and expressing God's love to the world through your actions, your life can become self-rewarding.

I'm working on all these things. I'm nowhere near perfect. No one is perfect, especially those kinds of Christians who like to quiz people about how Christian they are. I understand you as a good and sincere person which is a really good place to start. I think maybe finding a denomination of Christianity you are comfortable in is also important - it sounds like your family is in a charismatic Baptist tradition. If you aren't 'feeling it' maybe try something else.  It's your faith journey, so you choose the path.

[swinehund]

I've had very drastic changes in my life come about as a result of totally non-theistic changes in my behaviour and outlook, and these have been much more effective than my younger attempts at putting my faith in God have. I just don't see the need, personally. Given that, it's hard not to see methods of doing the same thing that involve (what seems to me) cyrptic, imaginary beings as unnecessarily complicated, and at risk of muddying up the process if they propose misleading or harmful explanations. The religious versions are much more popularized, so it's not surprising that these are the primary ones people would look towards. I have no doubt that they can sometimes have positive effects on people's lives, but other non-religious programs can too. In the end, it seems to be about addressing certain social and psychological needs we have, and there are many ways to do that.

I am not naive about the need for faith in some thing (obviously you can't sit around questioning your very existence all day), but it really does seem to vary from person to person. I've known people who are not remotely Christian or religious or metaphysical, but still need to believe that there's some sort of vague purpose to their lives (for example, improving the lot of humanity over the long term). Some people seem to be comfortable without that broad scale, and focus on making the lives of themselves and those close to them more enjoyable.

And a minor complaint about the original tangent: Darwin didn't make any claims about abiogenesis (how life started), just about how the current diversity of life came to be (assuming there was life already in existence). That has in a general sense been resoundingly supported by later discoveries, and biology would really be a lame dog of a field without that underlying theory. Further, modern biologists are not 'Darwinists'. The current version of the theory of evolution is the 'modern evolutionary synthesis', which ties together ideas from several different fields (Darwin knew nothing about genetics), and there is a lot of argument about whether most changes are even driven by selection (as opposed to apparently totally random fluctuations). To call a modern evolutionary biologist a 'Darwinist' is like calling a modern Christian a Zoroastrian, because hey, same ideological background. Oh boy have I wanted to get that out of my system.

[swinehund]

And might I add, blah blah blah (making little talky hand gestures at myself).

[misterqueue]

(obviously you can't sit around questioning your very existence all day)

Well dammit!




Also: this place gets quality noobs most of the time; huzzah for that. 

[wombat]

Dude, god is an imaginary friend for grown-ups. 

This is what it has always seemed to me, seriously.  What religion tells us - that we're not alone, that someone is in charge, that it all makes sense despite appearances, and that we'll live forever in some way - is so exactly what we want to hear. It just seems far too likely to me that we've made it all up because otherwise we'd go crazy.

I don't say this to belittle anyone's faith.  Just to say that for me, I can't get past the feeling that if something sounds too good to be true it probably is.

[AlohaDawg]

I don't say this to belittle anyone's faith.  Just to say that for me, I can't get past the feeling that if something sounds too good to be true it probably is.

If it's a feeling,  you can overcome it. 

[misterqueue]

If it's a feeling,  you can overcome it. 

Sure, but the question is should you?  I suppose if you feel you're missing something and therein lies the answer then sure.  Sometimes we have feelings for a reason though.

[wombat]

Actually, a feeling is much less easy to overcome than a logical argument would be.  One might recognize the superiority of a different logical argument, but feelings don't work that way.

[AlohaDawg]

I just know what works for me. It depends on why a person 'feels' that way, too. If she's been burnt by religion that's hard to recover from depending on how much trust you allowed to be violated. If the question is 'should you overcome feelings' the answer to me is, yes, at least most of the time - feelings are based on emotion and psychology for the most part. Finding out the root of the feelings and then looking at the same situation, you may arrive at a different conclusion. Or not - but feelings can cloud your perception of reality depending on where they come from.

I personally would love to work with someone who wanted to find out more about what I believe and I don't think I give people very much shit about their choices. I would not be surprised to find out that no one here has similar ideas or opinions. But I like to think people have mostly open minds about it.

[Ben-San]

I think maybe finding a denomination of Christianity you are comfortable in is also important

I think maybe finding a system of faith you are comfortable in is also important

[AlohaDawg]

Ben, that message was a direct response to Paul - his interest and his statements (he said he is a Christian) make it perfectly acceptable as written.

I appreciate that there are plenty of belief systems out there, some very old and well respected, and certainly none more 'right' or 'moral' than others, but I don't think that changes my response directly to Paul.

[pmcd9]

Ben, that message was a direct response to Paul - his interest and his statements (he said he is a Christian) make it perfectly acceptable as written.

I appreciate that there are plenty of belief systems out there, some very old and well respected, and certainly none more 'right' or 'moral' than others, but I don't think that changes my response directly to Paul.

I appreciate your help AD, thank you.  I've been discussing this issue with other people IRL also and i'm not getting very satisfactory answers.  Apparently it's not something you feel so much as just believe.  If I don't  believe it with my head and I can't feel it with my heart how am I going to be saved?

~Paul

[FlipConstantine]

how am I going to be saved?

Spider Man.

[AugustWest]

What do you feel with your heart?

I'm extremely non-dogmatic.  I have absolutely no use for churches or religious rules.  To me, churches and religions are creations of human beings.  I don't need anybody else to tell me how to relate to the infinite.  Maybe I'm arrogant, stubborn or short-sighted, but I've yet to meet a so-called spiritual leader who has brought me closer to God.  There are a few people I've known who have, and several artists.  But I can't think of a single member of the clergy, church service or religious tract that has furthered my spiritual growth since I was about 12.

Church and religion seems to me to serve primarily as social purpose.  I don't mean that in a negative way.  Obviously, some people prefer to take their spiritual journey in a community.  I'm not wired that way.  You seem like a pretty social guy, so maybe you are.  I would suggest you keep looking for the right group.  I know there are lots of intelligent, sensative, thoughtful religious communities out there.  Even in places like Utah (or Texas, or Kentucky).

Here's what it means to me to have faith.  I believe that we should love our neighbor as ourself.  I believe it with all my heart and all my bones.  I don't live that way, but I'm sure I should.  Sometime when I try to look at it objectively and analyze whether it is the most logical, scientific way to live I have doubts.  But in my heart, I know what is right and I can't conceive of anything that could change that.  That's the important part for me, the rest is all dogma and window-dressing in my book.

[AugustWest]

I don't remember if we've done this before or not, but have you tried this? 

I'm not sure how useful it is, but it does accomplish two purposes:  It educates you on what the various religions purport to believe, and it requires you to think about what you believe.