Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[V-Adore]

Once again, August has taken the words out of my mouth and made them much better than I could have. The only intolerance I see, in this thread or the Kirk Cameron thread, is towards idiocy.

[theinevitable]

hear hear!

or.... hear, hear!

how do I punctuate this exclamation?

*tries to agree with Aug and derail the thread at the same time, for the children*

[AlohaDawg]

I'll admit to arrogance.  When the promoters of what they call "Christianity" seem dead set on promoting ignorance, intolerance and hatred AND forcing it on the rest of us through the ruthless exploitation of the political process, I reserve the right to be arrogant.  I think I'm better than those amoral fucks.  For what it's worth, I think you are too.

Why don't you read the rest of the damn thread?  If you did you'd notice that nobody is mocking the military or people who support the war.  What I read in this thread was that people thought the so-called "reporter" ambushed the musician guy and that the musician pretty ineptly handled the questioning.  In fact I think I read several times, from several posters, that it was perfectly OK for Godsmack to support the military/war.  We just said if they did they should be stand-up guys about it.

And where I come from, Rock-n-Roll is about youthful rebellion and indviduality.  It's about raw emotion.  In my opinion those aren't qualities that are highly valued by the military.

As far as other points of view having worth, here's what I'll do.  I'll continue to evaluate them on the basis of how much solid evidence they're based upon and how they are rationally and logically derived from that evidence.  I reserve the right to laugh at a smarmy lightweight like Kirk Cameron and a smirking pseudo-Scientist with an agenda fondling bananas.

You know what?  Sometimes people do funny, stupid stuff.  Sometimes liberals & intellectuals do stupid stuff.  Sometimes conservatives do stupid stuff.  I reserve the right to laugh at all of them, even the ones on my side, when they do something stupid/funny. 

One more thing:  People can have all sorts of conceptions of God.  Some of us conceive of God as something other than a white-bearded berobed guy who's itching to damn us.  There are also lots and lots of values and ideals.  I value honesty -- intellectual and otherwise, kindness and love.  If the only God you recognize is Pat Robertson's and the only values you recognize are what the Republican party calls "Family Values", well then, now who's being arrogant?

I read the thread. The only thing I commented on from this thread was the idea that a musician should be constrained by the genre to a certain way of thinking or behaving, which I disagree with. Youthful arrogance and whatever aside, it's still about talent and it's still about making music and there should be room for different points of view everywhere.

Since you'll cop to the arrogance, I'll stand by the rest.

Whatever you believe to be God is cool with me. Whatever Kirk Cameron believes is OK too. If people are reacting to what he is saying, it might be that they feel like whatever they believe is being threatened. That's a lack of faith. I don't stand by his words nor do I feel the need to reactionarily mock him because what I believe I believe strongly enough not to be affected.

To broadlly paint Christians in the way that seems fairly consistent on this board is insulting to ALL of us, not just Kirk Cameron. I realize it's currently in vogue and sporting to do so, and sure he's an easy target and makes himself one, but that doesn't make it OK to generalize.

[Mite]

I'm not threatened by his beliefs, trust me, but the truth is his beliefs do affect me. His belief system is getting legislated into my biology classrooms. My kid may someday get a substandard education because of the legislators this guy and his buddies have got in their pocket. The quality of America's science and math education is already in the toilet, comparatively. I don't see why we have to handicap ourselves further.

I'm all for a pluralistic society. My coworker has talked my ear off for the last two weeks about psychics and shamen and her new wheat- and gluten- and yeast- and sugar-free diet that's supposed to cure her alleged yeast allergy, and I politely kept my skeptical mouth shut, because that doesn't affect me (though it is obnoxious). But if the school cafeteria is ever required by law to start serving only foods that she can eat, I'll get pissed at her, too.

And those durn Christians created those durn blue laws that keep me from buying a six-pack on a Sunday. They suck (the laws, not the Christians).

[FlipConstantine]

I'm not threatened by his beliefs, trust me, but the truth is his beliefs do affect me. His belief system is getting legislated into my biology classrooms. My kid may someday get a substandard education because of the legislators this guy and his buddies have got in their pocket. The quality of America's science and math education is already in the toilet, comparatively. I don't see why we have to handicap ourselves further.

I'm all for a pluralistic society. My coworker has talked my ear off for the last two weeks about psychics and shamen and her new wheat- and gluten- and yeast- and sugar-free diet that's supposed to cure her alleged yeast allergy, and I politely kept my skeptical mouth shut, because that doesn't affect me (though it is obnoxious). But if the school cafeteria is ever required by law to start serving only foods that she can eat, I'll get pissed at her, too.

And those durn Christians created those durn blue laws that keep me from buying a six-pack on a Sunday. They suck (the laws, not the Christians).

Couldn't have said it better.  Believe what you want, but you bring it into the arena of politics and secular life, then it is no longer a belief.  At that point it is a threat to say that your theologically derived misinterpretation of the word "theory" is something that should be taught to everyone else's children.

[theinevitable]

I don't know how well I can articulate this... but I"m going to damn well try.

I was listening to NPR during all the riots about the Danish cartoons. A specialist on the Middle East came on, and he said that one word came up in every interview with a rioter-- "embarassment." He said, essentially, that this is the problem with politics in the Middle East:

-Our Religion is the One True Religion.
-Our government (at least, in the country he was talking about. Iran? Maybe?) is based on this Religion.
-Our political leaders are appointed due to the will of Allah.
and then:
-We are technologically, militarily, and economically behind the rest of the world.

and so, as a young, educated Muslim... you have to wonder. If our religion is the one true religion, and we act according to this, and yet we are failing, while Infidels triumph in almost every situation, seduce our children away from our Faith with sex and drugs and secularism... what does that mean? How can we be failing this completely?

This is why a religiously based government is dangerous. Once articles of faith get in a position where they can be disproven, you have a problem.

this is similar to why religion should stay away from evolutionary theory.

[CortJstr]

Whatever you believe to be God is cool with me. Whatever Kirk Cameron believes is OK too. If people are reacting to what he is saying, it might be that they feel like whatever they believe is being threatened. That's a lack of faith. I don't stand by his words nor do I feel the need to reactionarily mock him because what I believe I believe strongly enough not to be affected.

We react to what he's saying because it's funny as hell, not because it threatens anything (other than common sense).  I'm not at all threatened by reflexologists but I still enjoy a good laugh at their expense when they're on Bullshit. We're not laughing because he's talking about god or christianity or intelligent design but because the specious reasoning is comically bad no matter what the topic.

Also, the word "faith" is inappropriate because I'm sure a lot of the people doing the laughing don't have any.

[AugustWest]

The only thing I commented on from this thread was the idea that a musician should be constrained by the genre to a certain way of thinking or behaving, which I disagree with.

Not really.

...some (a few)  of you are really starting to look like closed-minded, intellectually arrogant culture nazis who can't conceive the possibility that A) other points of view can have any possible worth and B) there might be something bigger than you out there. A value or an ideal or something-forbid, even a God.

Those are some pretty pointed comments.

To broadlly paint Christians in the way that seems fairly consistent on this board is insulting to ALL of us, not just Kirk Cameron.

Maybe, maybe not.  I not quite a few Christians who share my sentiments about Kirk Cameron and his ilk and wouldn't be even slightly insulted by what's been said about him.  I also have some choice words about Fred Phelps, who professes to be a better Christian than any of us.  Would you feel insulted by what I had to say about him? 

But you're correct, we shouldn't paint we a broad brush.  Not all Muslims are terrorists, after all.  But I do recall certain questions being asked about what moderate Muslims are doing to combat the forces of extremism within their religion.  Couldn't we ask the same about Christians?

And I'd rather be arrogant than willfully ignorant.

[AlohaDawg]

You guys keep bringing up politics like it's relevant.

You don't like your legislators? Vote them out.

You don't like blue laws? Vote to eliminate them.

There's two ways to go: make changes in your community or move to a community with values similar to your own. Organize. Educate. Make social change happen.

I don't like blue laws anymore than you do. I think they're outmoded and don't really do anything but force values on people without social benefit. but if 50.1% of the voters like them, they stay like it or not. Convince .2% of the people to vote the other way is one solution, finding a community where the laws, legislators and values fit you is another.

[AlohaDawg]

And I'd rather be arrogant than willfully ignorant.

Hmm. I might choose to be quiet over either.

[AugustWest]

Organize. Educate. Make social change happen.

That's precisely what I'm trying to do. 

Hmm. I might choose to be quiet over either.

Yet you didn't.

[CortJstr]

You don't like blue laws? Vote to eliminate them.

Tattoos are finally legal in all 50 states

[AugustWest]

I think I'm done with this.  As Wombat so aptly pointed out in Chat, it's probably not a good idea to engage in debate with an under-employed lawyer.  So to avoid any (further) hard-feelings, I'm going to (to quote Saint Alton of Brown) Just Walk Away.

[CortJstr]

I'm going to (to quote Saint Alton of Brown) Just Walk Away.

But...but there's still lumps in my pancake batter!

[AugustWest]

Just. Walk. Away.