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[theinevitable]

I am trying hard to find a way to articulate "Deism" that does not involve a Clock, or a clockmaker, or a watch.

[AlohaDawg]

A ton of cancer is caused by free will if you consider the choices people make. Smoking is a biggie. The chemicals in the environment that got there due to human industry are another.  The rate of cancers would be much, much lower without many of the human interventions that have occurred. This is not to say that these things are "bad" but you can't deny the causation factors. Cancer is a pretty poor argument. Sure there is some random smiting, but many many cancers are unfortunately absolutely traceable to human factors (without a moral agenda - just being their industrial, creative or needy little selves).

Tsunamis and Earthquakes have been happening forever - that's a part of how the Earth works. It's nothing to do with the people on it or the Creator.

My discernment between Faith and Superstition probably won't work for you. (Linnea and/or Ben may want to answer this question as well, I'd be interested in their response.) To me, superstitions like, say, avoiding walking under ladders or breaking mirrors have no bearing on my life or experience. Those 'beliefs' are meaningless in the context of my whole life. However,  my abiding belief in a loving God who has purchased redemption from sin and death by sending his Son to die for the sins of the world is real; it has demonstrated real transformative power in my life and the life of others; and prayer has demonstrated real results in my life.

You may be able to try to argue that the effects of my faith in my life are psychological and not real manifestations of some power working in, around and through me - but you know, it doesn't really matter to me because it is working for me and my life, and that of my family and children, and that of my friends in the church, and that number of people with positive, real energy working in the community is so powerful and such a mechanism of good that really, there is no reason to argue at all. The results speak for themselves.

[slink]

But, if evil in the world, people, are responsible for the bad, then what of the good?
Cures for diseases you mention, but they were created by people. Or are you supposing that because the ability to make the cures is there it means God is responsible? I don't see any distinction between the ills and the joy caused by people. If the people bringing joy to others are religious, it's still the people who are bringing the joy. I see no evidence for God giving us anything, whatsoever, and I can't go by blind faith. It's just not who I am, and I see no reason to believe people, so many of whom are mistrustful, that I should put this faith in a God, as it's only the word of people we have to go on.
I guess maybe one could argue God only chooses to enlighten certain people with the feeling of true belief, but not only does that seem to go against the tenet of christianity, but, well the other part is one of those statements I leave out of these discussions.

[misterqueue]

Tsunamis and Earthquakes have been happening forever - that's a part of how the Earth works. It's nothing to do with the people on it or the Creator.

Your logic fails here.  It has everything to do with the creator since S/He/It created HOW it worked.

I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid, but saying that a creator has little to do with how the general functions of a creation operates doesn't jive.

[AlohaDawg]

There is the concept of Grace - that is, G-d sends us grace constantly. We can choose to use that grace in our lives and our works - so the good, a lot of it, can be considered to proceed from G-d through His grace. Some may say that the non-good things that happen happen either in the absence of faith or in the presence of evil. So people are responsible for both the Good and the evil, either through G-d or in the absence of Him.

I would never say that only Christians do good, nor do only Christians benefit from Grace. There are many, many people in the world who aren't Christians but are clearly people of G-d. And there is no monopoly on enlightenment or belief.

Do you feel different - function differently, treat people differently, when you are happy? How about when you are in love? Or with the person you love? What if you felt that way all the time...loved and loving....and engaged in a mutual relationship that makes you happy and more productive and able to feel like you are a good, attractive, and worthy person? This sounds so hokey and so seventies, but a relationship with G-d (or a trusting and abiding faith) can make you feel unique and special and important and even help you understand that you needn't feel lonely or scared because something important is there for you and with you.

Your logic fails here.  It has everything to do with the creator since S/He/It created HOW it worked.

I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid, but saying that a creator has little to do with how the general functions of a creation operates doesn't jive.

Well, logic is not nearly as important as faith in a discussion like this. We would both have to get into G-d's head to understand the true answer to the question. I don't think Tsunamis and Earthquakes are punitive nor are they meant specifically as a method of population reduction. I think they are part of the environment. They simply are. Perhaps they are just the effects of other necessary forces required for the whole system to work correctly. Assigning them a moral value, which I think is sort of the genesis of the original reference to them, doesn't make very much sense ro me.

[jough]

That's my point, though.  I'm not suggesting that God is causing the earthquakes just to fuck with us - I'm saying that he allows them to happen because he either a) doesn't give a shit b) finds them exciting to watch, or c) doesn't exist and therefore has nothing to do with the earthquakes.

I understand that God allows Free Will and therefore manmade evil, but what about God-made evil?  Would you push one of your kids down a flight of stairs because you love them?  Is that how God expresses his love?  But hurting us and fuck*ng with us?

Keep in mind that the angry, asshole God is mostly in the Old Testament/Torrah.  Did God's therapy help him to be less smiteful by the time his son was born?  Maybe the little nipper softened the old man's rough edges...

[misterqueue]

This is the exact problem I've always gotten down to with any rational discussion on this.  It's the whole "We do not understand god hence..." that I equated to "a wizard did it".  It's kind of a catch all.  In my book, I would say if he's god, well he defines the way those laws work doesn't he?  I mean if he has to answer to something else then he's not exactly omnipotent. 

But yes, it comes down to faith at this point and here is where my part of the discussion falls off.  Thanks AD for the interesting viewpoints.  I'm glad everyone was basically pretty good natured here in the end. 

I love you messageboard... awwww.

[slink]

But yes, it comes down to faith at this point and here is where my part of the discussion falls off.  Thanks AD for the interesting viewpoints.  I'm glad everyone was basically pretty good natured here in the end. 

Yeah, that pretty much sums up the long post I was working on before. A good discussion though and actually worked some things out for me.
And indeed, as ever, such a great board.

[jough]

*Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuugs*

[theinevitable]

um, the comment some of you are making about earthquakes/tsunamis assumes that God is focused on people. I mean, yeah, people die in earthquakes and tsunamis. that doesn't mean that they're evil, or good, or have any moral value whatsoever. they're just how the world works. death, too, is part of how the world works.
You could just as easily ask "if there's a God, why don't we all live forever? Doesn't he love us?"

as usual, I am articulating my beliefs poorly.
and using the word "articulating" to explain this.

[jough]

um, the comment some of you are making about earthquakes/tsunamis assumes that God is focused on people.

Dude, the whole point is that God is focused on fuck*ng EVERYTHING all the fuck*ng TIME.

[theinevitable]

no, that's not what I meant. I mean, God's priority isn't necessarily to make people have happy + healthy lives.

I don't know. Maybe there's some other planet that's the one he really gets into. We were just a phase.

[wombat]

I don't know. Maybe there's some other planet that's the one he really gets into. We were just a phase.

Dang, now that would explain a lot...

[Ben-San]

As much as we might wish one of the terms of the contract was "God will bend or break the rules of physics and causality so that nothing miserable happens to you", it's not.

Incidentally, read "A Contract With God". I say this as much as a comics fan as as a Jew.

(It really bothered me to have two "as" in a row but there it is.)

[jough]

You're talking about bending or breaking the rules of physics like God didn't *invent* the rules of physics, though, right?  God isn't this dude who sits outside the universe.  He *is* the universe, or at least created it.  With purpose.  Since God must be all-powerful (albeit not all-knowing because he gave that part up for free will, right?) then he surely has control over earthquakes and diseases and such.  If he gave *that* control up, too, then he's starting to look less and less like God and more and more like just "someone more powerful than us."

If you saw someone you loved about to be hit by a bus, wouldn't you try to save them?  At least a little "Look out!" ahead of time?