Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[wombat]

OK, from this thread I now think I understand something I never understood before.  When bad things happen, religious people often respond that they must be part of God's plan for us.  That the earthquake is somehow part of God's long-range good intentions even is we can't understand why, because he works in mysterious ways and all that.

Someone earlier in this thread said something along the lines of - we can know that God wants us to do something without understanding why, like a dog can understand that you want him to do something without understanding why.

This being obviously the kind of simile that I can understand, it made me think...  I took my dog to the dentist the other day.  She likes going to vets, so she didn't expect anything bad to happen.  But then they anesthetized her and did nasty things.  She woke up confused, uncomfortable and fearful.  And totally uncomprehending.

I'm sure she wonders why I took her to that terrible place if I have good intentions for her.  She doesn't understand that in the long run, I saved her from the pain of a rotten tooth and even possibly dying from an infection. My ways are often totally mysterious to her even though I have only her best interests at heart. 

So, now I think I understand what it might mean to say that God is so far above us that the earthquakes and cancer and so on might be part of a plan that we can't understand. 

I think that I still think that it is bullshit.  But now it makes sense.  It seems like bullshit, but not complete nonsense, and that seems like a big difference to me.

[theinevitable]

what she said.

imagine that my last several posts have been replaced by "what Wombat is about to say."

[jough]

Actually, it would be more akin to someone about to bash your dog's head in with a baseball bat.

You have plenty of advanced warning, and the ability to stop him.

You just don't.

[theinevitable]

OK then. Maybe God is like my Mom. and we are like my dog.
my dog thinks my mom loves him. because, just like the rest of the family, she takes care of him, feeds him, etc.

but really, she is just waiting for him to die. She thinks he is disgusting and stupid. She wishes we had never gotten him.

(I love him though.)

[misterqueue]

but really, she is just waiting for him to die. She thinks he is disgusting and stupid. She wishes we had never gotten him.

Funny, that's exactly what your mom said she thought about you...  last night!  </jough mode>

[wombat]

Actually, it would be more akin to someone about to bash your dog's head in with a baseball bat.

No, see, that's what the dog thinks - that the dental work is no different from hitting her on the head with the baseball bat.  She can't understand the difference.  But she's wrong.  Likewise, we are wrong that the earthquake or the cancer is just random cruelty, because we can't understand the big picture.

Again, I am not saying that I believe this.  Just that I now understand that it actually is a coherent position to hold.

[theinevitable]

yeah, plus, this world is only fleeting and such. Afterlife of some kind?

[jough]

So you're saying that getting cancer or dying in an earthquake or fire is good for a person, only we are too ignorant to see how?

Is that really what you think?

[wombat]

No, as I have been careful to say in both posts, I don't believe this.  But there seem to be people who do, and now I understand what they mean.

Like I said, I still think it is bullshit, but it's coherent bullshit.  It's not total nonsense.  Maybe you have to be a recovering academic to understand what I mean by that difference, but to me they are totally distinct.  I now understand the position although I still don't agree with it.

[AlohaDawg]

no, that's not what I meant. I mean, God's priority isn't necessarily to make people have happy + healthy lives.

Sort of. Think of G-d like a parent - he gives humanity everything they need to have happy + healthy lives but because we are blessed with free will AND because we are more or less very much like children, we don't always make the best choices for ourselves or for the gifts that we are given. I think G-d wants us to have happy healthy lives and I think that it's OK both to ask for those blessings for ourselves and others and required that we sacrifice some of our time, talent and possessions to help others less fortunate. And I think at least 90% of the people on this board probably volunteer or donate to some degree or another.

The processes that go on on this shiny little planet of ours more or less require that things like Tsunamis and Earthquakes happen. They've happened for eons, for longer than we've been here. There are plenty of ways to reduce or eliminate human casualties from these events - for the most part they occur in predictable places - people stay in those places for mainly human reasons and choices made by themselves and others.

 

[pmcd9]

As much as we might wish one of the terms of the contract was "God will bend or break the rules of physics and causality so that nothing miserable happens to you", it's not.

But... but...  Isn't that exactly what God did when he parted the red sea for Moses?  Most Christians I know think God performs little miracles all the time.  I was talking to a guy not two weeks ago that told me about how he had a blow out on his RV while driving down a busy highway.  His RV careend across 3 lanes of traffic, but God spared them hitting another car.  It had to be God because that highway is always crowded, especially at that time of day.  In this guys mind, God moved the other cars on the road out of his way so as to prevent something miserable happening to him.  Why God didn't just prevent his tire from blowing out is a question I didn't ask.  My Dad made a very similar claim many years ago when he and I were driving in a pickup truck that had not one, but two tires blow out.  We didn't careen across traffic, but rather off the side of the road and down a hill that led to a drainage ditch.  We stopped the car perilously close to the edge of the ditch.  Had this blowout occurred any later we would have hit the (concrete lined) ditch at high speed and likely caused serious injury to ourselves and extensive damage to our vehicle.  As it turned out, we escaped injury and aside from two blown tires, our truck was unharmed.  Now I agree with you Ben that this was just a lucky break, but my Dad thinks it was the hand of God.  My entire family is convinced that God cured my Cousin Hillary of cancer.  Because she was diagnosed with breast cancer, but it mysteriously disappeared.  Can anyone say mis-diagnosis?  No, I guess not, it must have been God.  My Cousin Terri, who died of an aneurysm at the age of 38 wasn't so fortunate though.  Oh, excuse me, God decided to call her home.

But I'm glad to see we are finally in agreement.  Some Christians believe some silly bullshit.

~Paul

[pmcd9]

The processes that go on on this shiny little planet of ours more or less require that things like Tsunamis and Earthquakes happen. They've happened for eons, for longer than we've been here. There are plenty of ways to reduce or eliminate human casualties from these events - for the most part they occur in predictable places - people stay in those places for mainly human reasons and choices made by themselves and others.

People live by the sea because it's a source of food.  So yeah it's a human reason, but not a selgiraffe one.  I guess all those folks in Sumatra should just move away from the sea and the danger of tsunami.  They can just drive their SUV's to work.

~Paul

[AlohaDawg]

Your use of disparaging/insulting terms aside, lets posit for a moment that Christians belief is misplaced.

What does that change?

On the one side we have people like your family - they have a certain measure of grace, some peace in their understaning that Someone is looking out for them, and their grief at loss is somewhat salved by their understanding that Terri is in a better place, free of pain and hurt, and with the Lord.

On the other side are the skeptic scoffers. Seemingly angry, embittered, scoffing at the silly beliefs of those others and apparently carrying a pantload of negativity about the world, the people in it, and their belief in silly 'bullshit'.

And of course people in between.

Obviously I'm hardly objective, but I think the first group have a means of being happier (or at least less unhappy) because they have an understanding of the world and their place in it that allows them to celebrate some bad things that happen because they believe they were spared worse things, understand good things that happen as blessings and celebrate them by offering thanks and praise, and believe that they are loved and cared for no matter where they are and who is around - even when surrounded by strangers or enemies! If having those kinds of feelings over loneliness, bitterness, angst and anger is the benefit of 'silly bullshit' I'll take my portion of silly bullshit every day and I'll do my best to share with anyone who wants or needs it.

And as for Sumatra and other Tsunami/Earthquake zones - this is 2006 and there is enough wealth in the world to make those people safe if that route were chosen and if the people there wanted to be helped. As humans, we have the capacity to make that decision and the resources to make it work. But the world and the people on it don't work that way - probably those people know the risks but they can't or won't move, and if they did, others would be unwilling to share their resources to make that happen. But, those folks have been living in those areas for hundreds of years and I'm sure they know the risks. The ocean is a source of food to be sure but people live inland too.

[Ben-San]

But... but...  Isn't that exactly what God did when he parted the red sea for Moses? 

I don't believe in taking the Torah as a historical research document. I could go into the multiple-truths stuff but frankly I'm pretty sure anyone who's not already into that will just dismiss it as a way of justifying bullshit. Just know that as far as historical and scientific truth goes, I don't think God parted the Sea Of Reeds all Aquaman Vs. Tempest styles. (On the other hand, I can believe pretty well that Aaron was a clever enough fucker to map out the low-tide paths and get their pursuers lost when the tide rose - by its name, the Sea of Reeds was more likely a heavy marsh. The Torah does not refer to it as being the sea we now call "the Red Sea". And who knows, maybe sending an oppressed people a charismatic leader whose brother is a clever bastard is a miracle in its way.)

I do believe that if God wants things to go a certain way, He may bend the odds in their favor, but the contract with God does not demand that bad things not happen to good people. Even taking the Torah as a literal document, those miracles were contracted on a case-by-case basis: God contacted a prophet and said "if the people do X, I will reward them with Y".  Those miracles were performed and unless another prophet is contacted you probably shouldn't expect more radiant beams of fire from the sky except during thunderstorms.

[pmcd9]

I've never bowed out of a thread before, but I'm gonna here.  Our arguments are going in a circular direction.  I'll just conclude by saying, I love you Dawg, I love you Ben.  And when we're all living in mansions in the sky we'll have to meet up and have a laugh at how young and serious we once were.

~Paul