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Author Topic: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon  (Read 12258 times)

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KeithHernandez

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2006, 09:10:56 pm »

If the Jews were expelled from where they already lived by the Romans, then how can they be “foreign invaders”?  And for crying out loud, Keith, what makes you think that nuclear weapons existed back then?

I was obviously making a reference to two different times.  One time, the Jews were kicked out, then over 1000 years later they came back.  That is how they are foreign invaders.  Nuclear weapons exist now and Israel has a hell of alot of them.

This brings to mind the words of Cornelius Bear: “That’s all completely stupid, but what does it have to do with anything?”  Your silly attempt to conflate this situation with Constantinople aside, if “land changes hands over time,” as you claim, then why is it wrong for it to change into the hands of the Jews? ( Land, by the way, which was PURCHASED by Jews. )  Or do you have different standards for who gets to benefit from the changing of hands?

Israel’s creation is not the root cause of all this.  Anti-Semitism is the root cause of all this. 

Well, back then it was more common and not as artificial as what happened with Israel, and it is hell of valid considering the Ottomans controlled both areas at one time.  But I guess I can see that it may all seem natural in a couple hundred years.  Lets try this situation:

Hey, you know who lived in Constantinople?  The Eastern Orthodox.  Man, Communism sure was hard on them, lets take land away from some Muslims and set up an Eastern Orthodox state, because we are the Allied powers and we just won a big war.  Makes a lot of sense, eh? 

And I am pretty sure that stuff doesn't happen in a fuck*ng test tube.  Maybe, just maybe, there is a more rabid anti- Semite feeling there because the Muslims feel as if they have had land stolen from them by the West and the Jews.

This may be the single dumbest sentence I have ever read.  Listen up, Keith:

Jews are the scapegoats of history.  People have been trying to wipe them out utterly for thousands of years.  There are only 14 million of them left in the world.  Out of six billion people, 14 million Jews.  It stands to reason that they would want to have a place they could call their own, yes?

I’m not going to come right out and call you an anti-Semite, Keith, but I don’t see a whole lot to your arguments other than you don’t like them thar Jews.

Um, you aren't very smart then, because apparently that was the first sentence you have ever read.  A historical claim to land has nothing to do with who owns it today.  SO since Jews are the scapegoats of history, does that mean we should make all Muslims hate us by supporting them.  I wasn't around, I have no reason to repay the Jews with my support, and I sure as fuck do not think that my government should be supporting Israel. 

Pretty low to call me an anti-Semite for the disliking the way this whole Israeli situation has worked out.

I dislike the way Israel was created after WWII.

I dislike the way the Israeli government has acted.

I fuck*ng hate that my country is supplying nuclear weapons to the Israelis, even though they try to prevent other countries in the region from obtaining them (even going to war over it).

I don't dislike Jews, I hate the hypocrisy and stupidity that Israel and the West have shown in the Middle East.
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AlohaDawg

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2006, 10:40:59 pm »

Well, I'm glad no one's jumped my shit yet.

Paul, you made possibly the most uncivil post in the whole benighted thread when you used the term "sand-niggers". For God's sake, don't go around asking other people to be civil if you are going to use inflammatory rhetoric even if you are trying to be funny. Especially considering that Jews were in Jerusalem and Nazareth and Bethlehem and all over that area a long, long time before the Koran was revealed to Mohammed - so you really don't have a very good case for deciding who really belongs there if not Israel - but that part of the world has been fought for over and over again. Better that that the people of those three faiths figure out how to live and worship if not together at least in close proximity to one another - if not, for the sake of the world, better to evacuate the whole area and nuke it into a sheet of glass.

Keith, people are going to disagree with you. All your life. Better get better at handling it now. Limmo makes OK points, he's definitely not an idiot and he's been around a here a long time. Let's all take a breath.

I personally think we'd best not discuss restoring people to their ancestral lands without considering the former occu##### of North America. The fact is every square inch of the globe has been fought over in one way or another.

As for placing the State of Israel where it is now to facilitate the apocalypse? Stop breathing the fumes, stop drinking the water and get out of the fever swamp as soon as possible. That is pointless conspiracy theory type stuff that really doesn't deserve a place in a rational discussion of the here and now.

Israel is using precision arms to hit targets revealed by intelligence to be weapons fabrication or storage points, command and control, or high-interest enemy operatives.

Hizbollah (read Syria and Iran) are indiscriminately launching unaimable rockets with warheads full of ball bearings at population centers.

Israel has also destroyed an Iranian made long range rocket before it could be launched and one of their navy vessel was hit by a Silkworm-type missile of Iranian origin with sophisticated-enough operation to assure Israel that Iran is operating in person in Lebanon.

This is a regional war and the presence of Syria and Iran from day one indicates they may even have planned for this to happen (though maybe not this soon or this way).

It's all bad but it's hard to blame Israel for a response intended to once and for all destroy a major terrorist contingent on their border with the explicit agenda of destroying Israel.

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Limmo

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2006, 10:45:14 pm »

Thank you, AD.  I was going to waste another half a page ATTACKING our dhimmi friend Keith, but your reasoned response made me think better of it. 
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jough

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2006, 11:51:34 pm »

Seriously, Paul, use of the term "sand niggers" is bad form, man.  Much better would be "camel fuckers."

LET'S ALL LEARN A LITTLE TOLERANCE, PEOPLE

slink

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2006, 12:45:47 am »

but that part of the world has been fought for over and over again. Better that that the people of those three faiths figure out how to live and worship if not together at least in close proximity to one another - if not, for the sake of the world, better to evacuate the whole area and nuke it into a sheet of glass.

Amen.
Pretty much what I read earlier here and thought of posting, and was I thought a touching post from someone who's currently right in the middle of it.
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AlohaDawg

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2006, 12:52:12 am »

Seriously, Paul, use of the term "sand niggers" is bad form, man.  Much better would be "camel fuckers."

LET'S ALL LEARN A LITTLE TOLERANCE, PEOPLE

The point is more the disconnect of calling for civility with one side of your mouth and racist hostility with the other. No one is expecting civility from you, Jough...
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KeithHernandez

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2006, 09:04:15 am »

Yea, sorry about that.  A couple points I want to make:

The Muslims are just as much responsible, if not moreso, for the things happening as the Israelis.  I think that the United States involvment is as bad as anything else.

You can be anti-Israel and not anti-Jew at the same.  I am more against nationalism than anything else I can think of.



Edit: Pretty much Muslim hatred is the reason behind all of this, actually.  But that is why the creation of Israel was dumb.  I am pretty sure somebody should have seen this coming.  Also, Israel gives them an excuse.  I really just cannot hope any of the countries have any success.   In other words, I cannot "root" for any of these countries.  They are all assholes.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 09:12:38 am by KeithHernandez »
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Doc

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2006, 12:02:03 pm »

After Limmo's last post I almost suggested this thread be locked (I'd just got back from a 10 hour shift and wasn't in my most optimistic mood) but I'm glad to see it bounced back so well.

I honestly don't think looking to history is going to help much anymore, and it seems people going over what has happened in the past to try and figure out which side is 'in the right' have already made up their minds and are just looking for justification, gods knows there's enough for both sides to use.
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jough

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2006, 02:36:27 pm »

I'm just curious for those who think that Israel should not exist.  Let's say the world agrees and they take away the country and give it to the Arabs.

Then what?  What do you do with the millions of Israelis?  Relocate them?  To where?

How about your house?

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2006, 04:29:37 pm »

How about your house?

I did offer my couch.

No, in all seriousness, I do think they basically need a place to call their own (a safe-haven if you will), I just don't understand why it has to be in a place that is doomed to failure, but then I'm a non-believer so it's just soil to me.
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Limmo

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2006, 05:09:57 pm »

Yeah, after my last post I was going to suggest locking this thread too.

All three major world religions consider this area to be the Holy Land of their invisible sky-gods.  Consequently, it can't just be "soil" to anyone, because there's a good chance that the end of our species will be directly related to events there.

A major problem is that one group has decided that THEIR invisible sky-god is the Gold Standard, and that the members of all other groups must eventually submit to him/it.  Then the men can all grow their beards out and force women to dress like beekeepers.

If Israel didn't exist, they'd just find another excuse to justify their hatred of modernity and freedom. 

I hate many of Israel's policies, from 1948 onwards.  I think that the years of hatred and cruelty directed towards the Jews of Israel has made paranoia and heavy-handedness their standard response to everything, particularly towards the Palestinians. 

But we can't give up on them, either.  At least, not without signalling to their enemies that it's OK for them to wipe Israel and it's people off the face of the earth.



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AlohaDawg

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2006, 11:38:32 pm »

A major problem is that one group has decided that THEIR invisible sky-god is the Gold Standard, and that the members of all other groups must eventually submit to him/it.  Then the men can all grow their beards out and force women to dress like beekeepers.

This made me chuckle. Thank you.
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Doc

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2006, 05:21:43 am »

A major problem is that one group has decided that THEIR invisible sky-god is the Gold Standard, and that the members of all other groups must eventually submit to him/it.

Only one group has decided this eh? Damn that Pat Robertson!

I was watching a documentary on the peace talks that happened around the middle of Clintons presidency between Arafat and Barak (the guy before Sharon) and it amazed me how close they actually came to a peace agreement but the sticking point always seemed to be that each side wanted exclusive control over 'holy' areas. So I think it is a bit misleading to act like the Israelis are happy to share but the greedy Muslims want it all to themselves. There again maybe the Isrealis have indicated otherwise and I am unaware of it, if so please correct me.

However they got there the Israelis are there now and have as much right to exist as anyone else. Just because we don't want to see other countries wipe them out however doesn't mean we should condone their increasingly irrational military actions. If the US is to be involved it must act to moderate extremism on all sides, not condone it.

If I actually thought Israel's attacks on Lebanon were having a noticable effect on Hezbollah I would be all for them but lots of civilians are dying and Hezbollah's attacks don't seem to be decreasing in strength or frequency. I've heard people (though no one here) try to justify the massive fall out by saying that most people in this area support Hezbollah so they deserve what they get. Personally I find this unlikely but even if it were true by following this path Israel is making sure there are exactly 0 sympathetic voices in the region to speak out for them. For every civilian they kill Israel multiplies their problem becuase that person's friends and family suddenly hate Israel too. If Israel wants to exist then making damn sure their enemies continue to grow in number doesn't seem like a good plan.
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Lister

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2006, 07:29:37 am »

(almost) ALL religions have declared their Invisible Sky-God the Gold Standard.  It's practically required in order to have one.  It's all arguments based on faith, and faith is inherently irrational.  People don't ever calm down when your opening statement is "I believe that what you believe is wrong," even if you don't mean any harm by it (and usually people DO mean harm by it in this situation).

So there's three of these mutually-exclusive faiths in the area.  Not only are they being crappy to each other now, their ancestors have been crappy to each other for thousands of years.  There's more than enough well-founded dislike for each side.

I mean, this area was fought for by some of the first civilizations in recorded history.  The very idea of nationhood seems to have been developed just so people could have another reason to fight over this land.  Nothing ever is going to undo this violence that's in the past, and the combination of past violence and religious differences are more than enough to be inspiring violence in the future.

I'd like to think that the religious differences could be worked out if the violence were to stop, completely.  I don't think there's any hope of that happening if the violence continues from either side.  Each incident is justifiable by the side that inflicts it, and fuel for hate for the other side.

Right now the extremists on both sides believe the only way their religion will survive is if they manage to destroy the other side.  Maybe after a few generations without atrocities there would be less of those extremists.  I wish there were a non-sci-fi way for that to happen.  A Childhood's End solution might be the only one that works, though.

And at the risk of rekindling something, a large part of the problem is that there exists this entire nation specifically created to house members of one religion/ethnic group, and that group is disliked by the majority of citizens of other groups in the area.  To me, if Israel and Lebanon were the same country and it had laws like "Stop killing people who believe differently" and the people who lived in that country weren't divided into different parts based on religion/ethnicity, maybe it would be harder for people targeting one religion or another to bomb so indiscriminately.

Or to put it another way:  Let's say there are the Xs and the Ys, and Organization X likes to bomb Ys and Organization Y wants to bomb Xs.  As long as there are easy borders defining where the Xs and the Ys are, it's pretty easy to do large scale indiscriminate violence.  Even if Organization X is killing a lot of Ys for every Organization Y member it kills the Xs can still turn a blind eye to it because they know all the dead people are Ys and there's mutual animosity.  Xs might think it's horrible that, say, children died, but it wouldn't be intolerable enough to stop.  But if there aren't borders defining the difference between X and Y, you know that Organization X's next attack might get a lot of Xs, and Organization Y's attack might get a lot of Ys as well.  I'd like to think that the normal Xs and Ys might be willing to stop supporting their more radical Organizations if that were the case.  There'd still be trouble, because, well, people are assholes to each other and there's always trouble.  But ideally it would be individual trouble.  You can usually deal with individual trouble without involving explosives.*

But this isn't ever going to happen.  Israel would never welcome Lebanon, and Lebanon would never welcome Israel.  Both sides would see merging as defeat, losing their heritage, or whatever.  More likely than not the Muslims would emigrate to surrounding "Muslim Nations" and the united country would be seen as the "new Israel" only they would have stolen even more land.  Three religions would still be claiming the same land as their holy ground and would want exclusive control of it.  Nothing's going to change because people are so jingoistic about Nation and Religion.  Hooray, we're fucked.

The Childhood's End resolution is looking better.**

*Whatever happened to solving problems with nice wholesome knife fights?  Did "Beat It" mark the end of an era?

**Except for the whole part where humanity dies off as a species and evolves to the next stage of existence.  Though, really, that might be cool too, if there are awesome parties before that happens.  And cake.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 07:40:23 am by Lister »
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KeithHernandez

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Re: Israel/Hezbollah War in Lebanon
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2006, 08:13:46 am »

I am pretty sure that both Christianity and Islam sprung out of Judaism (Don't they all have the same God?  Just different prophets/no-prophet?) so maybe Israel isn't that bad of an idea.  Just talk the Muslim's into seeing that their religion came from the Jews, so they can get the holy land, since they were the first, or something.  Or, set up whore houses, get the money from that to get alot of weapons, kill everbody but like a thousand people, then set up an Island were you can control miracles, then make miracles, and the people will follow.  Make sure no other religions start by providing miracles when needed.  Everybody will be happy forever (thank you The Seven Madmen).
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 08:21:26 am by KeithHernandez »
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