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Author Topic: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness  (Read 15178 times)

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wombat

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2007, 04:20:36 pm »

Ethical question:  I have a dear friend with a huge amount of personal issues.  She is the epitome of fucked-up, spends a lot of time with mental health professionals, is on an off all sorts of psych meds...  She self medicates by smoking dope nearly constantly - being high most of the time.  She is also a nurse.  She is smart and a mostly good person, yet I would never want her caring for me or anyone I cared about.  Sometimes I think I should put in an anonymous call about her to her employers, but I care about her and don't want her to get fired.  When I stopped with the pot, this friend said she would end our friendship point blank if I took any issue with her drug use.  At the time, no one else's life was in her hands, and I therefore had no problem with her drug use.  Now I'm not so sure.  The ethics are stickey - I really thought being in the medical profession would require some sort of screening for sever mental health issues and drug use, but aparently not...  I try to comfort myself that most of her patients are in end-stage care anyway... but it's just not cool to me.

If I were one of those patients or their loved ones, I would want you to make the call.  Do you really think that her need to get high, or to keep her job, or your desire to keep being her friend - do any of those things beat out the need of sick and dying people people to be safely cared for?
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littlefallsmets

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2007, 05:12:51 pm »

Quote from: AugustWest
DDP rocks.

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robot_god

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2007, 05:43:03 pm »

Ethical question:

I probably wouldn't touch this situation.  Even if you get her fired, right behind her will be an ever higher, more severlely medicated nurse, most likely, and nothing will be rectified.  She'll probably be drug tested eventually, although that doesn't mean she'll get caught.  And who is to say she doesn't handle her job better or equally as well on drugs?  Who knows.

Nurses don't really need to make too many crucial decisions regarding patient care, so as long as they double check whatever they're instructed to do, it should be easy to avoid any errors.  But this depends on what kind of patients they work with.  Maybe you should just tell her to double check those IV bags, and don't send any bicarbonate through the pneumatic tubes (it blows up).
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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2007, 05:57:35 pm »

Ethical question...

My take:

I'd have a real problem keeping that person around me as a friend. I can not support the behaviour you've described here, mostly because of the potential impact falling outside of this person and onto the lives of people in the most helpless of situations.

So yeah, I'd smoke her out to the appropriate office. I could live with killing the friendship if it meant the friend couldn't effect a patient(s) and, also important, hopefully deal with some root causes so the friend can quit hurting herself.

The fact that she's mostly dealing with end-term care patients is immaterial. If anything, that is a time when sharp, compassionate care is most appreciated, by both patient and kin.

You're friend is wrong.
I would feel wrong in my soul knowing that situation.

My opinion.

Quote from: Automaton_Deity
Nurses don't really need to make too many crucial decisions regarding patient care, so as long as they double check whatever they're instructed to do, it should be easy to avoid any errors.

In my experience, this statement is wrong. I have personally crawled up as many asses as I could find over errors that caused pain, discomfort and hazard to my loved ones. They were the same kind of follow instructions and check issues that you mention.
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robot_god

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2007, 06:17:32 pm »

Yeah, that's true.  Despite the simplicity of the 'double check method' it is almost impossible to find a nurse that suscribes to this system.
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AugustWest

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2007, 06:56:39 pm »

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robot_god

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2007, 09:33:28 pm »

I...I... don't know what that means.

That's what you see before the BANG.
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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2007, 03:10:01 am »

Ethical question: 

Ultimately only your own gut can tell you what to do here, and it sounds like you kind of already know what to do, as evidenced by your statement, "that's just not cool with me."

For the sake of examining this situation, let's repalce "smoking dope" (which is, for better or worse, illegal), with "drinking beer" (which isn't illegal). On average, a beer or two at the end of the day is no big deal for most people--good way to unwind, whatever. However if someone were to be drinking beer "almost constantly" as you say about your friend in her post, I'd say most people would have a problem with that. Regardless of whether dope should or shouldn't be illegal, and regardless of the differences between what alcohol does to a person and what dope does to a person, both affect one's judgment and perception.

There is a *significant* difference between having a smoke (or a beer) from time to time, or even daily, after work, and smoking (or drinking) it "almost constantly." If, as you say, this friend of yours is also coping with mental health issues for which she is on medication, then her drug use probably has less to do with the little zing we all get from the occasional intake of a substance (coffee, alcohol, THC), and more to do with a coping mechanism for a state of affairs she may feel powerless against.

In my view, ANY job in which one is responsible for other people--regardless of the degree--requires sound judgment and keen perception. In terms of "social status," a nurse obviously enjoys more "status" than, say, a carnival ride operator; however I would hope we would all be equally concerned over a carnival ride operator doing his/her job under the influence as we would a nurse. So the "she only works with end-stage patients" argument is moot. She needs to have all her faculties present and alert, whether she is inserting IVs or changing bedpans.

If she has mental health issues, and she works with end-stage patients, I can't say I blame her for wanting to escape with a smoke, and often. When you've made it your life's mission to heal and help those who are hurting, and the patients in your care always die no matter what you do for them, well, hell, I'd have issues and want to smoke too. It sounds to me like she needs more intervention than just the meds--hopefully she is getting counseling or is engaging in some sort of other support group to help her address her work-related stresses and her personal mental health issues.

If I were you, I'd make my concern over her drug use known, from a standpoint of compassion. I would let her know that you feel it is not helping her, or her patients, to be in this state, and that you're worried about her. She needs to feel that she is not alone, and also that she will not be judged; but also that you're serious. There is no getting around the gravity of her situation. I would tell her that I'm so worried that I'm willing to do the hard thing and let people (i.e. her supervisors) know she needs help, if it comes to it. However you also understand how important her job is to her, and you understand she probably got into it for some very honorable and admirable reasons (wanting to help people, etc.). Let her know you want to help her rediscover that, but step one is to take control of the things that are negatively affecting her, so she can grow into the spectacular nurse she wants to be. Let her also know that you will be there to support her through that (if indeed you feel you have it in you to do so), but that you will not support the drug use or the over-reliance on meds. She is in a state of learned helplessness and you will not allow her to stay there. If she refuses, let her know that your conscience will not let you sit by and allow her to treat patients while under the influence. And then be willing to follow through with that if necessary.


Remember to put you and she on the same side of the battlefield, addressing the behavior; rather than on opposite sides of the battlefield, addressing one another.She may hate you for life, but no matter how close you are to someone, your chances of losing touch with them are infinitely greater than your chances of losing touch with yourself. Your Self is the only person you ever have to answer to day in and day out, and as long as you can live with that, you're good. Chances are, she'll hate you for a little while, and then realize that you really helped her out. We cherish more the friends who can tell us to our face that we look fat in a certain pair of jeans, than the friends who will smile to our faces and let us go out on the town looking like a sausage.

Hope this helps. Good luck to you!
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linnea

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2007, 07:33:41 am »

I totally disagree with the "nurses can't fuck too much up". They literally have to juggle the lives of multiple people every day ... and usually since hospitals are understaffed they have too many patients.

The technical requirements for nursing are huge. You have to be able to think on your feet quickly. Being under the influence would definitely affect that. I've had friends in the past who claim that when they smoked every day it was "like smoking cigarettes". I would beg to differ.
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slink

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2007, 12:40:47 pm »

I've had friends in the past who claim that when they smoked every day it was "like smoking cigarettes". I would beg to differ.

Certainly that although there are definitely cases where it's like taking prescribed meds. And I don't just mean pain relief. I doubt it's the case here, as my experience hasn't been due to mental health issues, but because my brain stem got all fucked up as a kid thanks to ME, and left me with very odd brain chemistry. An example would be my father who had to retire thanks to the same condition, about 20 years early. If he drinks coffee, which he straightforwardly can't anymore, he falls asleep within half an hour. Right now, I haven't smoked for about 6 weeks, and I feel spaced out, and all rather unpleasant. So for some people there are exceptions, but as I say, it's not because I'm depressed or anything (the side effect I get is that if I smoke, I do get lazier, and ignore my moods so don't sort anything out, making it all the more complicated and ensuring I spend as much time as I can not smoking up).
That and, as is pointed out, nurses have to be well, not inebriated. Even if smoking up does make her feel more like most people feel when sober, is nursing really the right job for her at that point? I mean, given my brain chemistry even without medication, be it prescribed or illegal, it just seems like a bad idea for me to take any job where people's lives rely on me being on form that day... I think ethically, regardless of reason for smoking up, she shouldn't be doing what she's doing based on the fact that she is. But then, if she appears sober day in day out, and sharp and on  it... I think you certainly need to voice your concerns to her, but explain that you have no issue with he using drugs per se. And if you do have issues with that part, then I guess, at least be honest.
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wombat

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2007, 02:26:23 pm »

That and, as is pointed out, nurses have to be well, not inebriated. Even if smoking up does make her feel more like most people feel when sober, is nursing really the right job for her at that point? I mean, given my brain chemistry even without medication, be it prescribed or illegal, it just seems like a bad idea for me to take any job where people's lives rely on me being on form that day...

This is an important point. I used to have a job where if I made a mistake, I could fix it the next day by rearranging some words on paper or making a phone call.  Now I have a job where if I make a mistake, living things can end up dead. The risks if I keep working on a day when I'm coming down with a migraine or am otherwise somehow impaired are completely different.  There are many jobs that your friend could have where she is not putting the rest of the world at such risk.
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AugustWest

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2007, 10:30:43 pm »

Is she smoking at/prior to work?  If she's just doing it afterwards, I don't have much trouble believing she can stay functional.  If she's doing it on the job I would have a problem.
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KeithHernandez

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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2007, 11:29:33 pm »

Yea, to the outside world I may seem like I smoke nearly constantly, but I really only smoke at night.  Sometimes, like if I have a three hour class to go to I may toke up, but besides that I save it for when I am free.  You get higher that way anyways.  That is the issue, if she is smoking at work, or just alot when she can.
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Re: linnea's bad little cats almost died from their badness
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2007, 12:24:48 am »

The idea being that she's partaking on her free time?

Studies on the 'hangover' effect for marijuana are mixed. Just follow the links off this recap that seems to support some level of cognitive impact and you'll find others that are inconclusive or negative.

Instead of going all screedy here I'm just going to say that behaviour outside of the workplace that includes the possibility of diminished workplace performance, when said performance impacts the immediate health and quility of care of multiple others, is completely unsupportable.

Separate standards and expectations based on position and impacts?

Yep.

My opinion.
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