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[Muse_Of_Fire]

Howdy, fellow Sick Fucks and Hot Nerd Girls.

Without going into a big long story, due to dumb outdated rules and politics with my job, and dumb bad luck with Mr. Muse's job, we're considering up and moving. My principal loves me, I have stellar reviews, and basically by every measure there is, I am an awesome teacher (please excuse the bragging--we get so few opportunities for it in my profession); but the politics of seniority, and budget cuts, being what they are, my days working in my current district, or even nearby districts, are numbered.

So we have decided to seriously consider moving. We decided that if job opportunities don't come up, we'll move after this coming school year (or sooner if my Linguistics class--that project I was talking about in this other thread--falls through). We have a general idea of where we might want to go, but we're willing to entertain lots of options and are interested in learning more about what's out there. We also decided that if we move, we're going to *really* move and go far away, so out of state is no big deal.

What we're looking for (in no particular order):

1. A city of at least 250k people.
2. Clean air/water, lots of greenspace. Lakes and/or ocean presence is a plus.
3. Low crime
4. LOTS of cultural opportunities. I have to live in a city with a ballet company and a real dance scene and theatre scene, and art galleries/museums. This is not negotiable.
5. Lots of excellent restaurants. I have to live in a "foodie" city. Also not negotiable.
6. Progressive/liberal vibe. I don't need to live in hippie-town, but Mr. Muse and I are both lefties so it would be nice to be in a place that is at least tolerant of "blue" folks.
7. High value on education. A university town or at least a place with really good schools and/or a high percentage of people with college degrees and beyond.
8. Strong economy/positive job market.
9. Good housing market/growth (we want to eventually buy a condo in an urban area)
10. Jobs for a dedicated, progressive teacher; and an attorney who specializes in contracts, business law, and copyright.
11. Smoking bans are a plus, but not required.
12. Vibrant "fitness" culture: lots of gyms, yoga studios, bike and jogging trails, etc.
13: High number of average days of sunlight per year. This is *critical* because I have a mood disorder.

Some background: Our current household income is about $30k and on that we are able to afford a just-under-1000 sq-foot 2BR/2 Bath apartment in a nice area, the occasional night out, relatively upscale meals at home once or twice a week. We generally don't spend money on things like new clothes very often. I'd like to have a little more in my pocket at the end of the pay period but we're certainly not uncomfortable. We have two cars (newest one is a 2004, the older one is paid for), and about $100k in student loan debt between us. So we'd like to go somewhere where the cost of living will be comparable.

Any suggestions? Where have you lived? Did you like it there? Based on what I've shared, do you think I'd like it there?

I dunno. Suggestions welcome.

[CortJstr]

NoVa is desperate for teachers and they can't build schools fast enough. But $30K will not come even close to cutting it here. Close to DC a 2/2 will cost you $2,500/month in rent alone. Farther out things get cheaper. But then you're living farther out.

[Muse_Of_Fire]

NoVa is desperate for teachers and they can't build schools fast enough. But $30K will not come even close to cutting it here. Close to DC a 2/2 will cost you $2,500/month in rent alone. Farther out things get cheaper. But then you're living farther out.

Well, how much do teachers make there? I'm just quoting my salary here where we live currently since I'm the sole income for us since Mr. Muse still hasn't found work. If teacher pay is commensurate with the cost of living then it could work. I used to live near DC (but in MD); although I can't remember what I paid for an apartment there. Assuming Mr. Muse can find work at all, we should be good. What's it like living there? The Richmond area is on our list, but we don't know much about the rest of the state.

[AugustWest]

Louisville is affordable and meets most of the standards you listed.  As far as opportunities for attornies go, any that I know about I'm using for myself.

[littlefallsmets]

I am sure you know that a place that fits all of those criteria does not exist anywhere unless you are incredibly rich.

If though as you say "culture" and "sunlight" are the non-negotiables along with "size"? You're basically down to... coastal California or the more urban parts of Arizona. LA or Phoenix.

And LA isn't affordable, low-crime or clean.

And Phoenix isn't affordable, progressive, much of a food town or all that cultural.

San Diego... is for people who can deal with having to drive three hours to LA to do anything actually cool. Tucson... possibly fits the most of your criteria but is way too small.

Most of your criteria screams "Pacific Northwest or Toronto" but... if sunlight is a deal breaker, you're kind of fucked there.

San Fran seems better than you'd think, considering that it is nearly as expensive as LA but the weather is disturbingly Bostonian and from my friends that live there, it seems to be much more crime-y than the postcards would suggest.

Pretty much, you're gonna need to either go to Portland and buy a SOSAD lamp or go to Tucson and deal with the facts of living in a one-hoss town or... go to Phoenix and be mindcrushingly bored or... go to LA and accept that the only way to not be poor in LA is to be completely unethical.

[Muse_Of_Fire]

Heh.

The place I described does exist, save for the job availability. I live there now. I'd like to have a bit more sunlight per year here too, but it's doable as it is.

LA is right out. I will not live there. Won't won't won't. I have friends in SoCal, and some family too, and I can't stand being there even for short visits.

SanFran area is on our list, and pretty high, although SanFran proper is too expensive. We're thinking maybe Oakland or Santa Rosa or someplace thereabouts. A lot of people have suggested Richmond and also, surprisingly enough, Atlanta. I know a little about Richmond, having friends and family there, but nothing about Atlanta. Boston has also been suggested but I'm hesitant. I used to live in DC and wouldn't mind going back there, but I'm guessing the job prospects for attorneys are pretty slim there.

Also on the list:

Nashville
Pretty much any city of a Certain Size that is between the SF Bay and the Oregon border
Toronto (sunlight is an issue)
Portland, OR (sunlight, again; I have family there and grew up not far from there though so I like the area save for the clouds)
Cincinnatti

I dunno. The idea of a "list" is pretty arbitrary at this point since we're currently in the phase of "create the preliminary list."

Still, I appreciate everyone's candid comments.

[AugustWest]

Nashville is pretty nice.  Big music culture there, mostly centered around Country music (duh). On the expensive side of Middle-American cities.

Cincy.  You would not like Cincinnatti.  EXTREMELY conservative.  Check out Columbus maybe...

Um, have you ever lived between the coasts?  It's my life and all I know, but I'm certainly aware that there a large cultural disconnect involved.  Not that you wouldn't like it -- there's lots to recommend it.  But based on every coaster I've known, there's a big adjustment involved.  N.B. a substantial proportion of 'em have chosen to move here permanently...

I would also suggest you look at your ~250K guideline.  Where I live there might be 2000 people within a 5 mile radius.  But there's a town of 20,000 only 6 miles away.  The state capital (30,000) is 10 miles away.  The largest city in the state (a.k.a. the 16th largest in the country) is half an hour down the road.  Another city of 250,000 is half an hour in the other direction.  Cincinnati is 90 minutes away.  Indianapolis and Nashville are about 3 hours away.  Chicago and St Louis are about 5 hours away. 

It's a different mindset.  But there are cultural opportunities here.  And it's unquestionably cheaper.

[Arachno-capitalist]

There are many towns in new jersey that meet at least 80-90% of your criteria. Most of new jersey is progressive liberal. All of new jersey has a smoking ban indoors. NJ is one of the best educated states in the nation and there are numerous "university towns" varying from princeton to new brunswick (rutgers). Almost anything you can imagine is within reach of NJTransit into the city. I think Hoboken or new brunswick sounds exactly like what youre looking for. Hoboken is one of these towns on the rise after a long period of downtime it is now being revived by trendy young folks. New Jersey isnt just the turnpike.

[Muse_Of_Fire]

Thanks, my bulbous but tapered associate.

I currently do live between the coasts. I love it here, except for the utter lack of jobs. In my lifetime I've lived on both coasts and in the middle, and I like them all. There are good and bad places everywhere, so as long as I can meet most of the criteria listed, the actual region doesn't matter much to me. In fact, if there was a way to for us to stay in the middle where we currently live, I'd totally do it. But the job prospects aren't looking too good.

As to the city size, I'm standing firm on that one. I have lived in cities of millions and cities that barely had a thousand people, and no matter how close the nearest urban center is, it's too far if I'm not living right in it. Growing up in some small towns, I came to appreciate them, but now that I'm an adult I've discovered that I'm most definitely a city girl. During Mr. Muse's last year of law school, circumstances dictated that we live in a small town of <1k people, 45 minutes from the nearest urban center. I worked in said city, so I was there every day, but still I thought I was going to DIE. I will never, ever, ever do that again. I'm a city person through and through, and if I have to drive more than 10 minutes to find a Thai restaurant or an indie coffee house, it's too far. Maybe that makes me a snob, but so be it. Such is my personality. I need the kind of crazy stimulation that city life provides.

Interestingly, A-CAP, several other people have mentioned New Jersey to me. I must admit that the state's reputation isn't so great and so the idea of living there doesn't appeal to me, but everyone who's recommended it has said glowing things, so it's worth at least a look. I'll add it to our "to be investigated" list.

Thanks for these perspectives, all; honestly they are helping a great deal. I solve problems by talking them out with others as sounding boards, so this is rockin'. Plus I get firsthand testimonials! Rad.

[littlefallsmets]

There are REALLY nice parts of New Jersey, yes.

The problem falls upon the fact that... the really nice parts of New Jersey are pretty much as expensive as LA or the Bay Area except that the weather is crap... and you're functionally as far as hell from the cultural events Mof is talking about.

This is going to sound completely like what you would expect from a person who grew up in a small farm town and now lives in Los Angeles but it is exactly what I believe:

Anywhere you have to go where the most efficient way of getting there is a bus or a subway pretty much isn't worth going to. Buses and subways are pretty much completely disgusting.

This is the reason I'll never get my 100% Liberal card. I don't care SO much about the environment that I'm gonna get on a bus or a subway. If I ever get money, I'll get a hybrid. I carpool whenever possible.

But, man, fuck public transportation. It is all germs and creepiness.

[theinevitable]

St Louis seems pretty hardcore awesome-- all my friends who are from there Love it. But I don't know how well it fits the other categories. Crime is a problem in the not-good areas, but I believe it is pretty safe in the nice ones (Clayton, University City)

Charlotte is...

1. A city of at least 250k people.
2. Clean air/water, lots of greenspace. Lakes and/or ocean presence is a plus.
3. Low crime
4. Not so many cultural opportunities. But it's getting better.
5. I don't know restaurants. Probably not, but again, getting better
6. I would say it's reasonably tolerant... I think Charlotte has gone Blue in recent elections.
7.  Generally shitty public schools (though there -are- some good ones)--  3 good private ones that I can think of.
8. Strong economy/positive job market.--Hell yes, Growing a lot.
9. Good housing market/growth (we want to eventually buy a condo in an urban area)
10. I know they have jobs for teachers at the public schools, but you might not want to get into that. The private schools are good, just not... certain ones. I won't name names unless you ask, but certain schools apparently have a "snobby old money" thing going on that is just bullshit.
11. I doubt there is a smoking ban.
12. Vibrant "fitness" culture: lots of gyms, yoga studios, bike and jogging trails, etc.---Yep!
13: High number of average days of sunlight per year.

indie coffee houses: yes, downtown.
Thai Restaurants: umm... there's a good one south of downtown... and... I think maybe another one? Somewhere?

[littlefallsmets]

One more thing, though? If I had gobs and gobs of money? I'd live in the rich suburbs of Albany, NY.

College town, cheap living, clean, lotsa open spaces... great culturally for a town around 150,000... a stable economic base because of being the state capital, liberal as hell for the same reason... if for some God-unknown reason, you WANNA do the NYC or Boston things, it's an easy day-trip.

Pretty much the only downside is the weather which... if you'd consider New Jersey or Boston's weather within the realm of reason, Albany has pretty much the same sunlight as those places.

Only reason I'm not living in Albany is that I wanna be a screenwriter and... you know... for that, it's Los Angeles or New York City. And New York City frightens the hell out of my shit.

[AugustWest]

Thanks, my bulbous but tapered associate.

I currently do live between the coasts. I love it here, except for the utter lack of jobs. In my lifetime I've lived on both coasts and in the middle, and I like them all. There are good and bad places everywhere, so as long as I can meet most of the criteria listed, the actual region doesn't matter much to me.

 

My sentiments exactly.  I'm so happy to hear you say this.  I'd love to hear more exactly where you are now.

During Mr. Muse's last year of law school, circumstances dictated that we live in a small town of <1k people, 45 minutes from the nearest urban center. I worked in said city, so I was there every day, but still I thought I was going to DIE. I will never, ever, ever do that again.

Yeah, yikes.  That's too far.  Understand that having a law career complicates issues.   

I'm a city person through and through, and if I have to drive more than 10 minutes to find a Thai restaurant or an indie coffee house, it's too far.

Good Thai restaurant, 20 minutes.  Also, good Persian restaurant, same distance.  Tons of great restaurants of most any conceivable stripe or ethnicity, 30-45 minutes. 

Also, a ballet company, an opera company, a good to very good independant band atmosphere and one of the best theatre scenes in the county.

I'm not really trying to get you to come here specifically.  My point is that there are cultural opportunities everywhere.  I'm just suggesting that perhaps you should check out places you wouldn't think of at first blush.  I live in a very small place, but they still deliver The New Yorker here every week.

Also, consider that maybe you are destined to bring culture to deprived areas.  Be a dang ol' Mother Theresa of The Dance to Podunk Springs.  There are little kids there that need you.

[Arachno-capitalist]

There are REALLY nice parts of New Jersey, yes.

The problem falls upon the fact that... the really nice parts of New Jersey are pretty much as expensive as LA or the Bay Area except that the weather is crap... and you're functionally as far as hell from the cultural events Mof is talking about.

This is going to sound completely like what you would expect from a person who grew up in a small farm town and now lives in Los Angeles but it is exactly what I believe:

Anywhere you have to go where the most efficient way of getting there is a bus or a subway pretty much isn't worth going to. Buses and subways are pretty much completely disgusting.

This is the reason I'll never get my 100% Liberal card. I don't care SO much about the environment that I'm gonna get on a bus or a subway. If I ever get money, I'll get a hybrid. I carpool whenever possible.

But, man, fuck public transportation. It is all germs and creepiness.

The towns i mentioned (also Newark) are all full of culture and easily traversed via auto.

[Muse_Of_Fire]

Yeah, yikes.  That's too far.  Understand that having a law career complicates issues.   Good Thai restaurant, 20 minutes.  Also, good Persian restaurant, same distance.  Tons of great restaurants of most any conceivable stripe or ethnicity, 30-45 minutes. 

Also, a ballet company, an opera company, a good to very good independant band atmosphere and one of the best theatre scenes in the county.

I'm not really trying to get you to come here specifically.  My point is that there are cultural opportunities everywhere.  I'm just suggesting that perhaps you should check out places you wouldn't think of at first blush.  I live in a very small place, but they still deliver The New Yorker here every week.

Also, consider that maybe you are destined to bring culture to deprived areas.  Be a dang ol' Mother Theresa of The Dance to Podunk Springs.  There are little kids there that need you.

I dig it. If you must know, I live in Madison, WI. I looooooooooooove it here. Love love love it. We would stay if we could get work, but it's looking less and less probable as time goes by. We've both lived here for over ten years (save for some little "blips" to finish education requirements and career options), and it has everything we want except jobs.

I'm totally interested in places that I wouldn't normally think of at first blush. SF Bay area, Richmond, Raleigh... these are cities that popped in our heads when we were first considering moving. But we're aware that there are little gems everywhere that we might not even know about, which is why we're asking our net associates to give us suggestions. So far all the suggestions I've received are at least worth investigating. So if you have a specific city in mind, AugustWest, lay it on me.

In terms of bringing the culture to deprived areas... nooooo. Been there, done that. I'm too old to do it again. But your other points are more than vaild.