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RT@achewood Would The Pet Shop Boys be nice to have over for Thanksgiving, or would they be a pain in the ass? It's really hard to tell.

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Author Topic: Retirement  (Read 9807 times)

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Arachno-capitalist

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2007, 03:40:36 am »

Where does the money go when the stock is initially issued? Serious question, I don't know much about this shit.

In the I.P.O. the money does go to the corporation as an entity. You and I don't have access to these events that are organized by investment banks to sell whatever fixed number of shares the corporation has decided to issue. Usually large institutions, banks, and of course the firm's owners will purchase the most of these shares. The money is then used by the firm to do things like expand, pay off debt, invest in capital, etc. As the value of the  company grows, the value placed on shares of ownership in that company usually increase as well. Google's IPO was spectacular because everyone wanted to own a piece of google and knew the company could do a lot with the money. Now that the people who took on the most risk in the beginning by buying the I.PO. can sell their shares of ownership to people who think google can do still more.
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2007, 03:58:04 am »

We agree that subways blow and that the basic idea of many people owning parts of the same company that can be publicly exchanged is a pretty good idea.

We disagree slightly on why subways blow and we disagree substantially on what happens to the idea of a public exchange of ownership shares when allowed to reach a massive scale largely unfettered.

Perhaps these are things we should stick to the basic concepts on, my friend.
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AugustWest

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2007, 04:12:26 am »

Shares of stock are very real things. They are contracts with rights: voting rights, rights to dividends when declared, rights to residual liquidation values of the company, rights to access books, etc. It is the value that one places on this contract that determines the value of the stock.

Well yes.  That's true.  In fact the definition of any property they teach you in law school is "a bundle of rights."  That is, your property rights are whatever the state defines them as.  For instance, I own my home in fee simple absolute, which is set of rights very well defined by centuries of legal tradition.

And you're right, shares are very real things and give you very specifically defined rights.  I just have two caveats.

First, and this is the more flaky of the two, is that intangible property such as stock is entirely dependent upon a well developed civil society to enforce those property rights.  Not that we're on the verge of living in a post-apocalyptic world where there's no social contract to enforce these rights, but some things are worth considering.  Namely, that the more esoteric the property right, the more dependent it is on having a fully functional civil government capable and sophisticated enough to enforce shareholders' rights.  It's one thing to have a legal system capable of enforcing your rights to a trunk full of ingots in your basement, it's entirely another thing to have a legal system capable of negotiating the maze of derivatives, hedge funds, SPDR's, REIT's et al.  The corollary to this is that your rights to intangible properties are exactly what a court says they are.  There are plenty of former Enron employees and retirees who have an impressive portfolio of intangible rights that the court are no longer willing or able to enforce. 

Second, and more practically.  Stocks are worth exactly what somebody will pay for them.  This is determined by complex and ever varying formula of financial fundamentals, mass psychology and public relations.  You say "It is the value that one places on this contract that determines the value of the stock.", which is exactly correct, as far as it goes.  The problem is the value of a stock isn't always (or perhaps is seldom...) rationally assigned.

I'm not trying to suggest that people shouldn't buy stock or other intangible property.  When I have money I do.  I'm just pointing out the philosophical and pragmatic differences between tangible and intangible property.

When the levee breaks...

If I have a barn full of cotton, well, possession is 9/10's of the law.  I have a great deal of control over the dispostion of that asset.

On the other hand, if I have 1,000,000 shares of Microsoft, I have a piece of paper and the expectation that the government will support my claim for a defined share of Microsoft's assets.  If the government and the society that supports that government are not functioning, my 1,000,000 shares may be worthless.
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Arachno-capitalist

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2007, 04:17:12 am »

Word, internet friend, word. We agree here.
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Nabubrush

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2007, 04:21:29 am »

That's the part I was wondering about. Because it's not beyond any imagining that my 1000 shares of IBM, for instance, might not turn into 1000 shares of nothing at some point. I mean, I can't go down to IBM headquarters and turn my shares in for staplers and desk chairs and indentured servitude on the part of some nubile young Administrative Assistant.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 04:24:52 am by Nabubrush drinks (a lot) »
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2007, 04:23:39 am »

Quote from: AugustWest
Second, and more practically.  Stocks are worth exactly what somebody will pay for them.  This is determined by complex and ever varying formula of financial fundamentals, mass psychology and public relations. 

You say "It is the value that one places on this contract that determines the value of the stock.", which is exactly correct, as far as it goes.  The problem is the value of a stock isn't always (or perhaps is seldom...) rationally assigned.

You, sir, have saved me a lot of typing.

When stocks are actually roughly worth that chunk of the current real value of the company and you are buying a stock on the belief that it will be worth more in a year or ten years because the company will grow in value and the value of your chunk will grow with it... I am completely down with the idea of stocks.

When stocks cost wildly more than the chunk of the current real value of the company and you are buying a stock on the belief that people will pay even MORE wildly over its value for it in one month or ten months... then I am completely against the idea of stocks.

Difficulty is... like... the more that people with a little money try to make tons of money off the second idea by essentially gambling or the more that people with a lot of money try to make more money by being able to manipulate that second idea...

The closer you get to a collapse that destroy even the value of the mostly-uninflated stocks with the rest of the destroyed market.

Which is good for nearly no one.
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AugustWest

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2007, 04:24:26 am »

That's the part I was wondering about. Because it's not beyond any imagining that my 1000 shares of IBM, for instance, might not turn into 1000 shares of nothing at some point. I mean, I can't go down to IBM headquarters and turn my shares in for staplers and desk chairs and indentured servitude on the part of some nublie young Administrative Assistant.

Thing is, if your 1000 shares of IBM turn into 1000 shares of nothing, money might well be the least of your worries.
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AugustWest

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2007, 04:25:19 am »

You, sir, have saved me a lot of typing.

Oh really?
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Arachno-capitalist

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2007, 04:28:34 am »

LFM has a mindstate of a very fragile universe where institutions of society can fail at any moment.
Did your parents divorce when you were a young child? Did a beloved pet die at a young age? Theres something deep here.
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Acap: I was thirsty one day and I sat down. A year later, Jack's was built around me and thirst is a recurring thing.

Nabubrush

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2007, 04:30:24 am »

Thing is, if your 1000 shares of IBM turn into 1000 shares of nothing, money might well be the least of your worries.

Well, if instead of investing in 1000 shares of IBM I invested in AR-15s and so on . . .

Also, LFM, don't put a responsibility like that on A-Dub. That's a heavy load to carry.
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AugustWest

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2007, 04:31:45 am »

LFM has a mindstate of a very fragile universe where institutions of society can fail at any moment.
Did your parents divorce when you were a young child? Did a beloved pet die at a young age? Theres something deep here.

On the other hand, maybe you have too much faith in societal institutions.

Look at the history of the 20th century and consider what social norms have changed since 1907 or so.  Does that instill a great deal of faith in the stability of social institutions?
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AugustWest

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2007, 04:32:40 am »

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Arachno-capitalist

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2007, 08:30:30 am »

Also as per the topic of discussion: I mentioned I own stakes in gold and natural resources. Over the long run I believe that things that are useful and get scarcer are necessarily going to be worth more money. For example after 9/11 I bought Exxon, HAL, and gold stocks. Once the iraq war subsided i moved towards Gold, Palladium, Copper, etc. As soon as those British soldiers were captured by Iran a couple days ago I bought oil and gold again. Alas, I could cash out now and buy a car that parks itself. But I'm only 21 so I'll keep rolling.
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Guy at my watering hole: "Acap, why do you keep coming to Jack's?They just serve shitty burgers and happen to have beers on tap."
Acap: I was thirsty one day and I sat down. A year later, Jack's was built around me and thirst is a recurring thing.

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Re: Retirement
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2007, 08:40:34 pm »

Alas, I could cash out now and buy a car that parks itself. But I'm only 21 so I'll keep rolling.

Do you need a girlfriend with a penchant for shoes, jewelry, and travel? Because I know someone.
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Re: Retirement
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2007, 12:32:19 am »

I didn't read this entire thread, but I should note that 401(k)s are basically free money.  Use them to the max as soon as you can.

Otherwise, hoard gold and diamonds and keep them in a safe deposit box in some old bank that was around since old times.
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