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[AugustWest]

I have no idea why men get all freaked out about men labeled as defendants and automatically assume that "the bitch is lying. All bitches lie."

Nobody said that all women lie.  The point is that some do.  Isn't it just as unfair for you to assume that:

a) Men "automatically" assume anything;
b) A man accused of a crime against a woman is automatically guilty of it.

Everybody deserves a fair trial and the presumption of innocence -- even us patriarchs.

[pmcd9]

I appologize for asserting that it's stupidity that keeps women in abusive relationships?  In my defense (slightly) isn't someone whose actions are in conflict with their best interest pretty much the textbook definition of stupid?  Further in my defense a part of my statement was framed as a question.  So i'll ask again, to you directly Nabu, what makes a person want to stay involved with someone who is abusing them?

~Paul

[AlohaDawg]

Nobody said that all women lie.  The point is that some do.  Isn't it just as unfair for you to assume that:

a) Men "automatically" assume anything;
b) A man accused of a crime against a woman is automatically guilty of it.

Everybody deserves a fair trial and the presumption of innocence -- even us patriarchs.

Yes! My point is not to say that every report is false; the problem is that the bias is to assume in very broad terms that every report is true. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to sex crimes; once accused your pretty much fucked. And the vast majority of the accused are not women. This is not to say that sexual assault does not happen...or domestic violence. The problem is that there are people out there who carry the belief that it's OK to use allegations of crime as a form of vengeance or as a means to an end other than justice for them.

[AlohaDawg]

I appologize for asserting that it's stupidity that keeps women in abusive relationships?  In my defense (slightly) isn't someone whose actions are in conflict with their best interest pretty much the textbook definition of stupid?  Further in my defense a part of my statement was framed as a question.  So i'll ask again, to you directly Nabu, what makes a person want to stay involved with someone who is abusing them?

~Paul

There's a lot of psychology involved there, Paul, and honestly, it's unfair to try to understand the dynamics of that decision in a vacuum because it's different in every case. In many cases, the abuse is beyond physical and the dominant partner has control of finances, car keys, etc. and assert control to ensure the other person can't leave. Children may be involved. Sometimes there are dependencies that cause the decision to leave to be less important than the decision to stay. To use a label like stupid is pretty unfair. I've known people who were plenty in love with each other - the problem was that beyond the emotion, one or both of them lacked some critical skills to deal with the other, or to deal with external pressures on the relationship, like meddling parents or finances or kids, or violations of trust. We go through our teens with the notion that love is enough, but for most people, love is a place to start but there is a lot of other input required and I know you've been in enough relationships to know that there is work involved. Some people never figure out what the work is or how to do it, and sometimes a potentially wonderful lifelong relationship is wasted because of it.

Of course, some people are just assholes and others are just bitches and that's how it goes. :-)

[linnea]

I appologize for asserting that it's stupidity that keeps women in abusive relationships?  In my defense (slightly) isn't someone whose actions are in conflict with their best interest pretty much the textbook definition of stupid?  Further in my defense a part of my statement was framed as a question.  So i'll ask again, to you directly Nabu, what makes a person want to stay involved with someone who is abusing them?

~Paul

The dynamics within an abusive relationship are very complex. Have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

To delve a little deeper into the issue, here is what I have learned:
We live in a society that devalues women, disenfranchises them, and constantly reinforces the idea that women are vulnerable to predation. Twisty Faster has a lot to say that I agree with 100% in this blog entry. The entry focuses mostly on women who lead public lives who get shit upon, but this portion of the entry applies across the board.

I find that feminists of the empowerful, slo-mo kickboxing variety are sometimes impatient with women who have been publicly screwed over by the Establishment. These feminists seem actually to be critical of women on the wrong end of a beatdown. Their motto is that the wronged women should open up a can of whup-ass on the thugly oppressor. Otherwise, men might take it into their heads that women can be kept in line with intimidation. According to these feminists, the women who cry uncle have allowed themselves to become victims rather than people.

But look here. Who are they trying to kid. Women can be kept in line with intimidation, and the whole world knows it. Aren't people who have been raped and intimidated and harassed and threatened with death...victims? What the fuck is wrong with that word? It describes the situation perfectly.

Do you guys get, I mean actually get, that our society is a patriarchy? Patriarchy isn't just a gimmick for a blog. It really exists. There are actual implications. Do you get that a patriarchy is predicated on exploitation and victimization? It's not a joke! It's not an abstract concept dreamed up by some wannabe ideologue making up catch-phrases while idling away the afternoons with pitchers of margs. Exploitation and victimization is the actual set-up!

Okay, now it's back to Somebody nice's personal words. Men can also be victims of domestic violence, whether in a straight or gay relationship. Female victims often suffer in silence because of the crippling social stigma against domestic violence and even make excuses to hide their partner's abusive behavior. Male victims also remain silent because of the macho image in our culture men are expected to maintain. We get a lot of male sexual assault victims up here. Most of the time they are too ashamed to say anything. They are terrified that it's their fault. Then we get the asshole supervisors that want to put the victim right back in the same bunkhouse room with the asshole that raped him in the first place!!! That's where our domestic violence shelter comes in, so that we can get the guy a safe place to stay (like a hotel room) until they can get safer arrangements for him at the plant.

This is a good article from a news magazine for police officers:

he two major elements prevalent in all domestic violence relationships are power and control. The abuser retains power over the victim and often controls the victim in numerous ways. For purposes of discussion, the victim will be referred to in the female gender. The abuser will often utilize coercion, threats, and intimidation to control the victim. He may threaten to leave the victim or commit suicide and can influence the victim to attempt to drop any filed criminal charges. The abuser may provoke fear in the victim by certain gestures, actions, and by a certain look he may give her. He may abuse family pets, destroy her property, and display a weapon to invoke additional fear and achieve greater control.

It is also common for the abuser to employ emotional abuse by causing the victim to feel bad about herself through the use of insults, demeaning and derogatory comments, humiliation, playing mind games, and making her feel guilty. As a consequence, the abuser will make light of any abuse he employs, will not heed any concerns expressed by the victim, and will place the blame on her to deflect blame from himself. He may even go so far as to deny any abuse occurred. In addition, he may utilize "male privilege" wherein he will treat the victim like a servant and behave as if he is "master of the castle." He will define the male/female roles in the household and make all the decisions.

In turn, he may employ economic abuse by controlling the finances and preventing the victim from having access to funds, preventing the victim from working outside the home, keeping her isolated from outside sources, and with little or no contact with other individuals.

When the victim is subjected to the power and control of the abuser, she becomes further dependent upon him and begins to lose her self-esteem. She is overwhelmed by the circumstances and often knows no way out. She endures the physical abuse comprised of battering that can include shoving, hitting, slapping, punching, choking, shaking, and kicking, among other violent actions. The cycle of violence becomes repetitive and more severe over time. Frequently, those on the outside have no knowledge of the behavior transpiring behind closed doors.

Thus, the victim becomes entrapped in the cycle of violence that includes three phases--the tension building, the explosive, and the honeymoon phases. In the initial stage, she feels the tension building and will do anything to divert the abuser's displeasure from proceeding into an eruption of violence. When it builds to a point that she can no longer thwart it from occurring, the abuser lashes out and violently attacks the victim by battering her in some fashion. She may be severely beaten and injured, but she may not necessarily report the incident to law enforcement authorities. Following the violence, the honeymoon phase will follow in which the abuser apologizes to the victim for his behavior and will proffer excuses in which he may claim he had a "bad day at work" and promises similar actions will not recur in the future. He may bring her flowers, her favorite perfume, and coddle her to win back her affection only to buy some time until the violence explodes again.

The impact of domestic violence on victims is tremendous. Repeated abuse confuses victims about the meaning of love. They are desperate for affection, but they become vulnerable to dangerous relationships. Frequently, they hope the abuser will change and want to believe that will happen so they will forgive him and provide additional opportunities to rectify the situation only to become re-victimized by the continuing pattern of violence.

Victims are often reluctant to report abuse to law enforcement authorities because they fear reprisal from the abuser who may threaten to harm her further or even kill her if she divulges the violence. They are intimidated and coerced by the abuser not to do so and, commonly, he will threaten to harm or take the children away, which is one of the biggest factors that will preclude victims from not reporting the abuse. They genuinely believe they will lose their children and are willing to endure anything in order for this not to occur.

Victims of domestic violence also feel embarrassed and ashamed to seek help and disclose what they have been going through. They commonly believe they are worthless individuals, and their self-esteem has been highly diminished or destroyed by the power and control that has been exercised in the relationship by the abuser.

This article from a state coalition against domestic violence has a great profile on batterers and some of the reasons why they abuse: http://www.acadv.org/abusers.html

The United States Department of Veterans Affairs has an excellent article on DV here: http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/ncmain/ncdocs/fact_shts/fs_domestic_violence.html

The Wikipedia article on DV that's currently up is a load of shit. Someone with an agenda had a serious axe to grind, used weasel words and slanted the entire article so it's horribly biased. Totally not worth reading. I have no time and zero patience for the Majorly wRong Assholes. Walk a mile in my shoes, motherfucker.

Of course, my favorite agencies beside our local shelter include STAR, or Standing Together Against Rape and the Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, because I personally know a lot of their staff, and they have traveled here to help train our board of directors as well as our police officers and Fire/EMS personnel. One of my favorite artists, Tori Amos, also helped to found RAINN. All of those sites have some excellent articles and links.

My motto is that if we work together and break the silence, we can help stop suffering. That's why I do what I do as far as volunteering. Y'all certainly don't have to do it, and I don't care what you think of me for undertaking this type of work, but I'm just trying to explain my side of the story.

[KeithHernandez]

So wait...Salina, huh?  It is the only place you turn between OKC and Denver.  What are you doing in that part of the world, Paul?

[Ruta Bagas]

Is this pervasive social atmosphere whereby women who accuse men of abuse are "automatically labeled as subhuman" one that's more pervasive over in America? Because I genuinely have never come across it in any other context than people railing against it, but it's possible that that's just chance or ignorance and I feel its wise to be well aware of the particular ways in which society is fucked up.

Linnea, I think I agree with an awful lot of what you're saying, but I really don't think you're saying it in a terribly helpful way.

When guys get off on a tangent about "the man was unfairly accused because the bitch asked for it," they are reinforcing their worldview that women deserve to be subjugated and that it is the Natural Order. Women who accuse anyone of rape are automatically labeled as subhuman.

This seemed like it was intended as a response to the point that some men are falsely accused and can be thoroughly fucked over despite being completely innocent. How relevant and important that point was aside, you've not really been very fair to it. In fact, you seem to have equated it with the nonsense defences of rapists who claim their victims wanted it really even if they said "no". Surely nobody here, making the former point, would say "the bitch asked for it"? The situation you've outlined seems to bear no relation to the one AlohaDawg made, to the point that I'm only assuming it was a response because if it wasn't I have no idea why you'd have pointed out something so blindingly obvious that I can't imagine anyone here disagreeing.

While we're about it, what's this about men not reporting abuse solely because they're too macho? I thought these relationships were complex?

(If there's one thing about myself that sickens me, it's that I can read a thread like this and get more riled about how people debate than about the issues at hand.)

[AugustWest]

My motto is that if we work together and break the silence, we can help stop suffering. That's why I do what I do as far as volunteering. Y'all certainly don't have to do it, and I don't care what you think of me for undertaking this type of work, but I'm just trying to explain my side of the story.

I still don't think you're getting what we're saying.

I think working to stop domestic violence and rape is great -- I respect and admire you for doing the work.  I understand how victimization works.  I think men (or women) found guilty of these crimes should be punished for them and their victims should be helped.

However, I think am certain that not every man accused of one of these crimes is guilty.  I still haven't heard you even recognize that as a possibility.

Nobody here is saying that domestic violence doesn't occur or that it isn't a horrible horrible thing.  However when you start talking about "men" in such broad sweeping terms you strike me as something of a bigot.

[Nabubrush]

Paul, if you really want my take on it, I suppose we could go offline, but I think the ground has pretty much been covered. It can't be stupidity that keeps a victim with an abuser, because there simply isn't anyone that stupid.

[linnea]

I think we're talking about two entirely different things.

However, I think am certain that not every man accused of one of these crimes is guilty.  I still haven't heard you even recognize that as a possibility.

Nobody here is saying that domestic violence doesn't occur or that it isn't a horrible horrible thing.  However when you start talking about "men" in such broad sweeping terms you strike me as something of a bigot.

Bigoted because I'm pointing out that our society encourages violence against women?  And yes, I have already made huge allowances for dudes who get falsely accused.

  I guess that men latch onto one or two "innocent men" stories and can't see the forest for the trees. Why do guys focus on "the bitch with an axe to grind" stories rather than focusing on helping the victims?

If it sounds like I'm discounting the extreme minority of falsely-accused men in favor of the huge majority of domestic violence and rape victims that get chewed up by the system...you're absolutely correct.

If you want to talk about a system that fails, don't look at the minority of men who are falsely accused - look at the women who are given totally inadequate protection from perpetrators.

The men who get falsely accused still get public defenders, but women who try to have protective orders enforced get told by the police to call back later, like in the Castle Rock case. Once the dude's case gets dismissed, his record shows nothing about being accused of being a batterer.

Is this pervasive social atmosphere whereby women who accuse men of abuse are "automatically labeled as subhuman" one that's more pervasive over in America? Because I genuinely have never come across it in any other context than people railing against it, but it's possible that that's just chance or ignorance and I feel its wise to be well aware of the particular ways in which society is fucked up.

A recurrent theme that I see among well-educated middle-class white dudes is that they seem genuinely bewildered that these sorts of things actually happen to other people. These kinds of things do not happen within their world except to pathetic white trash on television, and the viewer can always feel a little smug that these people are such trash and obviously deserve their station in life. The bewildered dudes themselves work hard, pay taxes, do not hit their wives, and they send their daughters and sons to college, so why the hell are rabid-ass feminists like linnea trying to make them feel bad about having a c*ck?

...Dude, I am not trying to make you feel bad for having a c*ck. I'm trying to point out shit that happens to women that seems to fly below your radar.

I am always fighting a losing battle when I try to explain concepts like male privilege or what constitutes a patriarchical society. Dudes get hostile when I ask them to look outside their comfort zone. So whatever. Continue with your regularly scheduled programming.

Linnea, I think I agree with an awful lot of what you're saying, but I really don't think you're saying it in a terribly helpful way.


While we're about it, what's this about men not reporting abuse solely because they're too macho? I thought these relationships were complex?

This seemed like it was intended as a response to the point that some men are falsely accused and can be thoroughly fucked over despite being completely innocent. How relevant and important that point was aside, you've not really been very fair to it. In fact, you seem to have equated it with the nonsense defences of rapists who claim their victims wanted it really even if they said "no". Surely nobody here, making the former point, would say "the bitch asked for it"?

Look, domestic violence is a difficult topic. People here on this message board implied that the woman in the photographs must like domestic violence because she stays with her abuser (e.g., she is stupid) and is willing to harass the cops who arrested him. Displays like that are a fixture on C.O.P.S. (heh, Philippe reference to COPS), so much so that it's a common pop culture stereotype. "Oh honey, look at the poor white trash on TV, addled on meth and Night Train and harassin' the cops, even though the neighbors called the cops because Cletus was trying to bash Mary Jane's head in with a brick. She must like it if she's pleading with the cops not to arrest him!"

As far as the male emotional response to being domestic violence victims - I'm sorry that wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, that is just compiled from the research that's been done...nationwide, statewide, and locally.

I get really pissed off when people disparage women because it happens all the god damned time. I get pissed off when people try to deny that there's an underlying societal structure that supports violence against women. A woman that I worked with used to come to work with bruises and shit, and explain with a laugh that it was because she was so clumsy. That DOES NOT mean she was a victim of domestic violence, she very well could have been telling the truth, but it was a red flag. I still got a little sick to my stomach every time she went through the "clumsy" routine. I got sicker when she railed against a woman here in town (S.) whose boyfriend got sent to jail for beating her, saying that S. should have been jailed too. Totally brainwashed by her asshole husband that women do not deserve help and that they are to blame for abuse.

The dudes on this messageboard are good people. I'm not trying to say that you are personally responsible for violence against women; however, society is responsible. I'm just confused why dudes are getting hot under the collar because I'm trying to explain why exchanges like this (about domestic violence and violence against women in general) make me angry because of the underlying societal mechanisms that allow them to keep happening, mechanisms that are ignored and never challenged.

[pmcd9]

I'm guessing the police officers that came to arrest the dude despite the woman's protest are a part of the "underlying societal mechanisms" you are speaking about.

[AugustWest]

I think we're talking about two entirely different things.

Bigoted because I'm pointing out that our society encourages violence against women?

No because you make sweeping generalizations about a group of people that may not be true of individuals in that class.

And yes, I have already made huge allowances for dudes who get falsely accused.

Could you point that out?

The men who get falsely accused still get public defenders, but women who try to have protective orders enforced get told by the police to call back later, like in the Castle Rock case.

Mmmm, I think you're making a huge generalization here.  Protective orders get enforced all the time.  One case of non-enforcement does not mean that it's always like that.

Once the dude's case gets dismissed, his record shows nothing about being accused of being a batterer.

Wrong.  Absolutely wrong.  The arrest record and the court records exist unless they are expunged.  Also, some cases are dismissed correctly, which you seem completely unable to accept as a legitimate possibility. 

A recurrent theme that I see among well-educated middle-class white dudes is that they seem genuinely bewildered that these sorts of things actually happen to other people. These kinds of things do not happen within their world except to pathetic white trash on television, and the viewer can always feel a little smug that these people are such trash and obviously deserve their station in life. The bewildered dudes themselves work hard, pay taxes, do not hit their wives, and they send their daughters and sons to college, so why the hell are rabid-ass feminists like linnea trying to make them feel bad about having a c*ck?

Why is it OK for you to make generalizations about "dudes"?  Wouldn't you be offended if I made offensive generalizations about "chicks"?

...Dude, I am not trying to make you feel bad for having a c*ck. I'm trying to point out shit that happens to women that seems to fly below your radar.

And what I'm trying to tell you is that we are aware of it.  I've gotten EPO's before and worked for women's shelters.  I've also represented men that I am convinced were quite demonstrably falsely accused, yet were faced with an effective presumption of guilt.

Domestic violence is a terrible thing, nobody's disputing that.  But I'm not prepared to give up my fundamental conceptions of justice in a vain attempt to fight it.  Logic, factual proof and the presumption of innocence are still required in these cases.

I am always fighting a losing battle when I try to explain concepts like male privilege or what constitutes a patriarchical society. Dudes get hostile when I ask them to look outside their comfort zone. So whatever. Continue with your regularly scheduled programming.

Patronizing much?

Look, domestic violence is a difficult topic. People here on this message board implied that the woman in the photographs must like domestic violence because she stays with her abuser (e.g., she is stupid)

I don't think anybody ever said or implied that the woman liked violence.  Point that out to me.

and is willing to harass the cops who arrested him.

Looks like the pictures and Paul's testimony documented that.

Displays like that are a fixture on C.O.P.S. (heh, Philippe reference to COPS), so much so that it's a common pop culture stereotype. "Oh honey, look at the poor white trash on TV, addled on meth and Night Train and harassin' the cops, even though the neighbors called the cops because Cletus was trying to bash Mary Jane's head in with a brick.

I'm with you this far.

She must like it if she's pleading with the cops not to arrest him!"

What?  You've made two quantum leaps here.  First "pleading with the cops" is not the same as "harrassin' the cops".  Is there not a line that the woman could have crossed that would justify her being arrested?  Please tell us what behaviors alleged victims are to get a free pass on?

(As an aside here, anybody who defies a cop's instructions is most likely an idiot.  You WILL lose that battle and be arrested, even if you are entirely in the right and the cop is entirely in the wrong.)

Second quantum leap:  "She must like it"  is not the same as "She's too stupid to leave".  The reasons people stay in abusive relationships are surely complex and are bewildering to those of us who haven't been involved in them.  How can we explain something so inexplicable?  Ignorance is surely a more generous explanation than enjoyment, though neither one is accurate.  But that doesn't make them equivalent.  We can pity a woman who is too stupid to leave, but we don't feel as inclined to feel sympathy towards a woman who "must like it."  Most people, us middle-class white guys included, express pity for the victims of domestic violence.  Attributing it to ignorance on the woman's part may be misguided, but it doesn't rise to the mean-spiritedness of  the "She must like it" you accuse us all of.

I get really pissed off when people disparage women because it happens all the god damned time.

Where did this happen?  Point that out to me.

The dudes on this messageboard are good people. I'm not trying to say that you are personally responsible for violence against women; however, society is responsible. I'm just confused why dudes are getting hot under the collar because I'm trying to explain why exchanges like this (about domestic violence and violence against women in general) make me angry because of the underlying societal mechanisms that allow them to keep happening, mechanisms that are ignored and never challenged.

Here's the problem.  When you say "society"  what I hear is "men".  Even in a so-called patriarchal society, women have an influence.  It may not be as overt, it may be subtle, but if you think men alone are responsible for our social mores you're kidding yourself.

Are women treated unjustly in our society?  Maybe.  But we can't remedy that by treating men unjustly. 

[side_show]

Woah,

I just sort of scanned over the shit that hit the fan.  I'm not getting into the pool here.

Paul, when I said it was a hunts move, I meant it is a hunts move to take photos of someone at their lowest then use them for entertainment.  Even if even if it is par for the course for this lady to do a thing with the po-po every few days, you didn't make her life any better by taking photos.   I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's not cool.  Not a major crime in my books, just an error in judgment on level with picking up Hunts over Heinz at the grocery store.  This from a lady who used to get chuckles from going on hooker runs, laughing my ass off at the ladies of the night with my buddy.  Total hunts move.

People:  love your white trash, dumb as brothers and sisters.  Rock out Brooklyn.  Rock out New Jersey.  Peace out.

[wombat]

(As an aside here, anybody who defies a cop's instructions is most likely an idiot.  You WILL lose that battle and be arrested, even if you are entirely in the right and the cop is entirely in the wrong.)

This seems like an important point because yeah, obviously for this couple to have gotten to this point, there is a lot of shit going on in their lives that we should feel sorry for -- but that doesn't mean that they don't also, perhaps unrelatedly, happen to be idiots.

I was surprised where this thread went because the main thing I took away from Paul's post was what I think he meant by it which is, wow, some people are dumb enough to act like that towards the police even if they are not hoping to get their fifteen minutes of fame on "Cops." Whatever else we might suspect from that woman's behavior, the only thing that is for sure is that she has some serious common sense issues.

I guess I'm sort of impressed that youall saw something deeper, but I am worried that we are now getting into flame war territory here.

[pmcd9]

I was surprised where this thread went because the main thing I took away from Paul's post was what I think he meant by it which is, wow, some people are dumb enough to act like that towards the police even if they are not hoping to get their fifteen minutes of fame on "Cops." Whatever else we might suspect from that woman's behavior, the only thing that is for sure is that she has some serious common sense issues.

Thank you Wombat, that is exactly what I meant.