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[pmcd9]

COPS Live on the Streets of Salina KS

[AugustWest]

COPS Live on the Streets of Salina KS

Were these artcar owners?  What did they do wrong?

[pmcd9]

Were these artcar owners?  What did they do wrong?

Ha, that's the problem, they're NOT artcar artist.  He was arrested for domestic violence.  She was arrested for being a dumbfuck.

[wombat]

She was arrested for being a dumbfuck.

Man, it sure would be great if that was illegal where I live.

[V-Adore]

Wow, uh... yeah, I have some things to say about this, but they'll start a fight. So, uh. Yeah.

[Nabubrush]

I don't think you know very much about domestic violence and cycles of abuse, Paul.

[side_show]

With the many negative encounters with the police that I've had, the time will come when I get arrested.  I really hope it wont be at a Taco Bell.  But maybe it will be.  If it is, I really hope no one is there to take pictures.  You've got to know that this was one of this lady's lowest moments.  She really didn't need it to be documented.  I don't know Paul.  I love you, but for me, this is a Hunts move on your part.

[pmcd9]

I don't think you know very much about domestic violence and cycles of abuse, Paul.

No, probably not, and I hope to never learn first hand.  However, I think this was more about drug and alcohol abuse than domestic abuse.

With the many negative encounters with the police that I've had, the time will come when I get arrested.  I really hope it wont be at a Taco Bell.  But maybe it will be.  If it is, I really hope no one is there to take pictures.  You've got to know that this was one of this lady's lowest moments.  She really didn't need it to be documented.  I don't know Paul.  I love you, but for me, this is a Hunts move on your part.

I don't know anything about this lady outside of what I withessed and neither do you.  For all we know, this is par for the course for her in her life.  I do know a little bit about you Mel and given the same situation I can't imagine you behaving like she did.

My inittial reason for taking the photographs were because this was all taking place right next to my friends artcar, but she turned the drama up so high I had to keep snapping.  If she had acted in a dignified manner I would have told the story of a dignified person getting arrested.  For that matter, if she had acted in a dignified manner she wouldn't have been arrested.  But getting dramatic pictures of someone getting arrested wasn't the only thing on my mind.  I'm normally not very sympathetic to the police, they can be pricks of the highest order and if they had acted in an unprofessional or illegal manner I would have caught that on film as well.  All Rodney King style.  In that situation i'm sure that woman would be very happy that I was there to document her abuse at the hands of the Salina Police Department and I would have been more than happy to help her with her cause.  As it is, my presence may have been a benifit to this woman, I mean who knows.  I don't know much about the Salina Police Department, but they seemed very tolerant.  She just kept pushing her luck though until she finally pushed too far.

So call it a Hunt's move if you like, but I don't agree.

[linnea]

I don't think you know very much about domestic violence and cycles of abuse, Paul.

It really does suck. People tend to blame women for abuse. People try to say stuff like, "Well, she was hitting him back!" Then they blame the woman for staying.  It's a product of a patriarchical culture. Abusive relationships are complicated.

I am on the board of directors for our domestic violence shelter. I wanted to take training to become a victim advocate. Also as an EMT I wanted to be on our SART, or sexual assault response team...but I'm leaving and so I'm going to be missing teh training.  We serve women, children, and men. Men can be victims too, although it's pretty rare. Alaska has one of the highest rates per capita of rape/sexual assault, child sexual abuse, and domestic violence in the entire country. We also have the highest percentage of women murdered by domestic partners. Domestic violence and sexual assault is a huge problem that everybody has to address.

Also...just because drugs/alcohol were involved does NOT negate the domestic violence. Domestic violence is still domestic violence, even if drugs or alcohol were involved.

[AugustWest]

Which excuses any type of behavior she chooses to engage in, even if it happens to be endangering the police officers?

Also, last time I checked, being accused of a crime =/= being guilty of a crime.   If you don't believe that there are abusive females involved in relationships or females who have falsely accused partners of domestic violence or other crimes, then I'm sorry, I think you're being sadly naive.  Even if he is guilty of abuse, how do you know the woman in the picture is his victim? 

I cannot condone domestic violence (or pretty much any other sort of violence.) But the reactions to Paul's pictures scare me.  Based on virtually no evidence you've convicted this guy of domestic violence and lambasted Paul for not being sensitive enough to the woman's plight (and the plight of women in general...)

Paul takes pictures of what he sees and I'm glad he does.  Sometimes he sees ugly things.

[linnea]

AW, I think you're totally missing the point. I am talking about accountability in the age of denial. I am not excusing the Kansan woman's behavior at all, I am attacking the pervasive societal view of domestic violence where women get blamed. I am not saying that this particular woman in this particular incident was innocent or guilty. You're right, AW. I was not there. However, even being a bystander doesn't mean that you have the whole story. Hell, even being the medic on scene doesn't mean I have the complete picture. But you know what? I've been on a lot more domestic violence calls than you have. I've seen it up close, live, and in person. I've taken women to the clinic with horrible injuries. I have also been there to help young men who were sexually assaulted in giraffe processing bunkhouses. Some of them lash out at us, and who can blame them? The ones that assault us or spit on us are taken into custody, but they still get help from our domestic violence shelter.

In Paul's instance, the cops took both of them to jail. Even if you're the victim of violence, it doesn't give you carte blanche to break the law. However, our police chief is also on the board with me. The stories that he told about some of the other departments that he worked at were terrifying. He saw asshole cops withno training in domestic violence who did stupid shit to punish the victim.

In Castle Rock, nearby to where I live in Colorado, a perpetrator also happened to be a cop committed a heinous crime. His wife pleaded with the department to enforce the restraining order that she had. He kidnapped all three of her children, and murdered them. In Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court ruled that the town and its police department could not be sued for failure to enforce the order.

The CRPD took a gamble to protect "one of their own", blatantly disregarded the law, and guess what? He murdered three little girls. It does not mean that all men are murderers, it means that perpetrators -- whomever they are -- are guilty whether or not they get caught.

[Nabubrush]

This was what I had an issue with, especially the part in bold. I probably should have addressed it on flickr:

Thank you for the story Kristy. That's some good stuff. You felt bad for the lady when she was getting abused by her boyfriend, but don't it make you feel like a chump for extending you sympathy to someone so stupid. What makes people want to stay involved with someone that is abusing them? They are probably breeding right now.

[AlohaDawg]

AW, I think you're totally missing the point. I am talking about accountability in the age of denial. I am not excusing the Kansan woman's behavior at all, I am attacking the pervasive societal view of domestic violence where women get blamed.

(AD)I didn't see in this thread where she was blamed for anything but witnessed and partially documented disorderly conduct, and she admitted to public intoxication.

I am not saying that this particular woman in this particular incident was innocent or guilty.

She admitted to one crime and was certainly responsible for her actions in the sense of obstruction/disorderly conduct.

You're right, AW. I was not there. However, even being a bystander doesn't mean that you have the whole story. Hell, even being the medic on scene doesn't mean I have the complete picture. But you know what? I've been on a lot more domestic violence calls than you have. I've seen it up close, live, and in person. I've taken women to the clinic with horrible injuries. I have also been there to help young men who were sexually assaulted in giraffe processing bunkhouses. Some of them lash out at us, and who can blame them? The ones that assault us or spit on us are taken into custody, but they still get help from our domestic violence shelter.

I know guys that were accused of rape and abuse by vindictive and un-harmed women with an axe to grind and sympathetic, wrong minded 'social go gooders' or opportunistic prosecuutors or judges on their side. For every Reade Seligmann there are 200 other guys without alibis or the benefit of a really disorganized false accuser who can't keep the story straight. The sad thing was, had she accused a poor black man he'd probably be in prison right now.

In Paul's instance, the cops took both of them to jail. Even if you're the victim of violence, it doesn't give you carte blanche to break the law. However, our police chief is also on the board with me. The stories that he told about some of the other departments that he worked at were terrifying. He saw asshole cops with no training in domestic violence who did stupid shit to punish the victim.

She was punished for her inability to comply with the cops orders and comport herself in a reasonable manner. Her victimhood was not a part of the arresting equation according to the facts we have before us here.

In Castle Rock, nearby to where I live in Colorado, a perpetrator also happened to be a cop committed a heinous crime. His wife pleaded with the department to enforce the restraining order that she had. He kidnapped all three of her children, and murdered them. In Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court ruled that the town and its police department could not be sued for failure to enforce the order.

The CRPD took a gamble to protect "one of their own", blatantly disregarded the law, and guess what? He murdered three little girls. It does not mean that all men are murderers, it means that perpetrators -- whomever they are -- are guilty whether or not they get caught.

I'm not sure where this fits in. Criminals exist across society, including among those who are meant to uphold the law. That's a terrible story and the order should have been enforced. There are legal and institutional issues there. The piece of paper has yet to stop a fist, knife or bullet, though - if someone wants to get at you they will, cop or not.  Women at this kind of risk need far more protection than a written order, and many are harmed or killed with these orders in place. This is a case where the system just doesn't work.

[Nabubrush]

Actually, I also had an issue with calling someone stupid for staying with their abuser. That part should have been in bold too. I think it's pretty much never stupidity that causes that.

[linnea]

AlohaDawg, I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. Rape is one of the most highly underreported crimes in the United States.

Do you understand what I mean when I mention the patriarchical view of women in our society? My problem is that these misogynistic views are so deeply entrenched in our society that people don't notice them at all. When guys get off on a tangent about "the man was unfairly accused because the bitch asked for it," they are reinforcing their worldview that women deserve to be subjugated and that it is the Natural Order. Women who accuse anyone of rape are automatically labeled as subhuman.  I have no idea why men get all freaked out about men labeled as defendants and automatically assume that "the bitch is lying. All bitches lie."  I guess that men latch onto one or two "innocent men" stories and can't see the forest for the trees. Why do guys focus on "the bitch with an axe to grind" stories rather than focusing on helping the victims?

If it sounds like I'm discounting the extreme minority of falsely-accused men in favor of the huge majority of domestic violence and rape victims that get chewed up by the system...you're absolutely correct. In the 1980s women began to band together and form domestic violence shelters and to start to work towards justice and safety for all. 27 years later and there is still a TON of work to be done, as evidenced by the heartbreaking stories such as Castle Rock v. Gonzales.

Everyone knows that we have a flawed justice system. Does any country in the world have a perfect system?  It sucks that we live in a world where innocent people have been sent to death row and executed. Does that mean we should junk the whole system? "Innocent until proven guilty" is fine, but that doesn't mean that you get set scot-free without bond just because you're "Innocent until proven guilty." If you're accused of a crime, the justice system guarantees you certain rights.

I mentioned the Castle Rock case because Paul mentioned that he doesn't trust cops either - it's a perfect example of how nobody takes the domestic violence victim seriously, least of all the ones that are supposed to be helping the victim. The man gets all the credibility and the "benefit of the doubt", and the victim is almost always discounted and discredited - "She must like it because otherwise why would she stay with him??" And you know what? That piece of paper is all the protection they get.

If you want to talk about a system that fails, don't look at the minority of men who are falsely accused - look at the women who are given totally inadequate protection from perpetrators.