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Author Topic: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.  (Read 11704 times)

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theinevitable

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2008, 06:11:14 pm »

I'm trying to decide if it's worth it for me to read one of those books when I already know that I hate everything about Ayn Rand's ideas.
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theinevitable

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2008, 06:55:45 pm »

Quote
Oh man. I am so not going to pick on you for that.

I can't tell what you are saying?

I know that she is in opposition to some philosophers who I admire a lot, and I have had people explain what she thinks to me, and it is just Not how I look at the world at all, I am not a fan.
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Social pressures exist
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You're gonna do it all for the grind

side_show

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2008, 07:40:56 pm »

Don't worry Inev, I know I'm an anomaly in many ways, but if it comforts you, I've become a professional writer without ever having read any Ayn Rand.  I mean I've tried, but, I just can't read that stuff.
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Drygioni

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2008, 07:44:43 pm »

Hey...what's with the goddamn pound signs when someone tries to use the word r-o-b-o-t?

Pound?!
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jay-ell

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2008, 07:54:26 pm »

Pedro is listening to Atlas Shrugged right now -- or maybe he just finished?  I warned him about discussing it here.  I don't know if it will be a deterrent or encouragement, though. 
Judy -- don't be alarmed.  "Pound" is Americanese for "#."
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Victoria Waterfield

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2008, 08:01:12 pm »

Pedro is listening to Atlas Shrugged right now -- or maybe he just finished?  I warned him about discussing it here.  I don't know if it will be a deterrent or encouragement, though.

Letting some else read Atlas Shrugged for you is so contrary to its ideas.
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wombat

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2008, 08:05:03 pm »

Letting someone else read Atlas Shrugged for me is the only way to go. I'm going to let A-Cap read it for me, next time he re-reads it. That way we both will be happy.
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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2008, 08:08:02 pm »

He can read it for the both of us.  Except the first couple sentences, which I've read a few times before sighing and putting it away to read something more to my tastes.
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2008, 08:47:06 pm »

I dunno.

I think "Iron Man" was about a guy transcending the quasi-intellectual boarding-school posh-tosh ideologies about justifying greed and irresponsibility that smart people with unfair advantages wall themselves off with to let themselves sleep at night and... realizing his responsibility to all of humanity with his skills at hand.

Evil-The-Dude was just the even more extreme example of his past sins that he was able to use as a mirror.

I mean, the edges of the movie were ideologically muddled, sure, but if anything Stark was the good man of charisma that... like... a Weber was lamenting the absence of, in an odd kind of way.
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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2008, 10:46:39 pm »

I'm trying to decide if it's worth it for me to read one of those books when I already know that I hate everything about Ayn Rand's ideas.

I think they call that Ignorance and Prejudice, but whatever works for you, dude.
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jay-ell

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2008, 11:20:30 pm »

Ignorance and Prejudice...isn't that by Jane Austen? 

Yeah, I'm thinking if you decide you hate it without reading it, that pretty much puts you in the category with people who decide Harry Potter is satanic without ever opening a copy. 

You gotta decide if that's a membership card you want in your wallet, I'm just putting it out there. 
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KeithHernandez

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2008, 11:25:00 pm »

yeah, they are both right dude.
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Doc

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2008, 11:45:48 pm »

Yeah, read it Inev, it's enlightening.
Mainly for me because I spent the first half of the book going 'huh this lady has some interesting ideas, I kind of like the conflicts here' and the second just getting turned off again. I'm glad I read it because it enabled me to see what I liked about the philosophy and what I didn't. Also I'm sure even A-Cap wouldn't argue with me too much when I say a lot of it is a good guide on how not to write a story. Fifty page monologue people!
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theinevitable

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2008, 01:06:29 am »

yeah, but, no. I know what she has to say. I have heard it argued many times. I have read articles about what she had to say. Why do I need to read the whole damn book to disagree? She says that the world is best off when everyone acts in their own self interest, yes?
I would read an essay arguing for her points, maybe a few of them, but the whole book is too much for me.

Quote
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

I don't like this at all. Man is, by nature, a political animal, a social animal, and thus a member of society and not solely an individual-- man has never lived as an individual alone, and philosophies based off of this idea are flawed. Rights of individuals are important, because they keep society strong-- but simply claiming that men should pursue their own happiness as the be-all-end-all of moral purpose is too simplistic. There has to be a balance, people. BALANCE. Society requires the efforts of individuals to function well, obviously-- healthy pursuit of self-interest is worthwhile and necessary. But this pursuit alone is not sufficient to sustain human society. We have a responsibility to our communities and the human race as a whole.

Really what I'm basing this off of is what I've read of philosophy (Plato, Locke, Rousseau especially) and adding a little of what I've learned from experience and other stuff (anthropology!) that I've learned. But also the idea of the dual impulses inherent in man, given to us by God, which was explained to me by a Jewish friend has been important to my understanding of human nature. The idea is that there are two impulses. One is the selgiraffe impulse, which is not evil-- it makes us work, it makes us reproduce, and create art, and learn, and build houses, and even eat. This is obviously an important part of human nature and one which leads us to survive and continue the species.
But the species cannot continue without the other impulse, the selfless impulse. The impulse which tells us to do right by our fellow man, and by God. The impulse that makes us feel empathy for others and help them-- not because it makes us happy to see them happy, but because it is the Right thing to do.

Quote from:  wikipedia says
The human faculty of happiness is a biologically evolved measuring instrument (a "barometer"[11]) that measures how well one is doing in the pursuit of life. Therefore the standard by which one can judge whether or not some action will lead to greater or lesser happiness is, whether or not it promotes one's life.

This is the flaw in reasoning-- I remember someone on here mentioning that she goes through great gymnastics of reasoning to explain that when one character gives another character a gift, it is because it makes him Happy to see her Happy, and not out of any sense of altruism or selflessness. The issue is, we DO have happiness for a reason-- it tells us that we should keep doing what we're doing (generally). Happiness and other emotions were created by evolutionary pressures which DON'T CARE whether You as an individual live or die-- only whether your genes get passed on. Which is why people sacrifice themselves for family members, children, etc-- it benefits the chances of your genes being carried on.

Maybe I'll read it one day, but I don't have that much interest.
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AugustWest

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Re: Iron Man: 2/3 cool with a scoop of suck.
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2008, 01:40:26 am »

For someone who worships individual excellence, Ayn Rand sure is lousy at her chosen vocation.  Agree or disagree with her philosophy, there's no denying that she is one crappy novelist.
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