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[Carlos del Vaca]

Ash, we are not that far apart then.  I'm talking out of my ass seeing as I don't live in California, but my understanding is the "two-third referendum for any new taxes!" has been something of a mess, yes?  Instead of letting elected officials sort out what money goes where, suddenly voters are expected to be experts on how money should be allocated and policy debates get watered down to their most basic, absurd levels.  "Either you support giving money to _________ or you hate it and you're evil!"  Which results in chunks of change being thrown around with limited discretion, when stuff does manage to pass.

[Arachno-capitalist]

Ash, we are not that far apart then.  I'm talking out of my ass seeing as I don't live in California, but my understanding is the "two-third referendum for any new taxes!" has been something of a mess, yes?  Instead of letting elected officials sort out what money goes where, suddenly voters are expected to be experts on how money should be allocated and policy debates get watered down to their most basic, absurd levels.  "Either you support giving money to _________ or you hate it and you're evil!"  Which results in chunks of change being thrown around with limited discretion, when stuff does manage to pass.

As opposed to politicians, who are experts on how money should allocated? Who water down debate to absurd levels of Log Rolling, "Either you vote for this, or your bill will never get past my committee!"

[wombat]

Puppies!

[Carlos del Vaca]

As opposed to politicians, who are experts on how money should allocated? Who water down debate to absurd levels of Log Rolling, "Either you vote for this, or your bill will never get past my committee!"

Point taken, but individual instances aside, I'd rather take my chances with a group of elected officials and/or career bureaucrats, who may be intelligent and have the best interests of the country at heart, than with the population at large, which without fail is made up mostly of complete dumb-asses.

It's like that movement a few years ago to "privatize Social Security."  Sorry, I don't trust my fellow citizens to manage their retirement funds particularly well.

[wombat]

Just got this week's New Yorker and this seemed relevant.

[Drygioni]

If it's any comfort, every British person feels that Britain is going to hell in a handbasket, despite it being a very good place to live as a human being. All the French people I know feel the same about France, despite it also being a good place to live as a human being. All the Irish.. etc. Hell, Britain under Thatcher was, by accounts of nearly everyone I know who lived in that time, was appalling, but you still get people who wish for those 'good old days'.

The media and human mind portrays it all this way, that every 'Western' country in the world is somehow degrading and corrupting itself to the point of no return. And it's probably been the same since the dawn of time, once a country/culture has finished its ascendancy and reached a flat things seem to be getting worse, because things aren't getting better, just fluctuating slightly. Yes, China and India are experiencing a real boom currently, but it's the same boom we've experienced, in VERY simplistic terms they're 'catching up' to our levels of economic power per capita. And they too will reach a zenith, and worry that the country is beginning to fail.

My limited experience of life may be showing me up here, but I have a kind of confidence that the current problems in America, Britain, everywhere will be addressed when they reach the point that there is no avoiding them, or the circumstances change to permit a solution etc. New problems will spring up, the old problems will eventually re-occur, but nothing bar the fundamental problems of human nature seem to be permanent in society. And you've got to live with those.

OR Western civilisation is going to implode spectacularly a la the Western Roman Empire.

Go easy on me, I am young, this is mostly just to provoke alternate/more realistic viewpoints on such things to broaden my horizons.

[wombat]

OR Western civilisation is going to implode spectacularly a la the Western Roman Empire.

See, that's the thing. I think we all kind of assume that that can't happen to us. I'm sure the Romans assumed the same.

[Drygioni]

See, that's the thing. I think we all kind of assume that that can't happen to us. I'm sure the Romans assumed the same.

Yeah, it's that single point which invalidates the rest of my post really.

Anyone up for drawing parallels between collapse of Roman civilisation and perceived collapse of ours? How 'til the famous Sack of Washington?

[Arachno-capitalist]

What good ol days exactly? Before we had electricity? The internet? Motor cars?
Do you want to go to the time when segregation was legal? When Africans were traded as a commodity? Before we had innoculations and heart surgery?
By what measure is society declining? By every metric the quality of life is in fact improving across the board. Less starving people, less people living under poverty, more people working, living healthier, longer lives.

[Doc]

See, that's the thing. I think we all kind of assume that that can't happen to us. I'm sure the Romans assumed the same.

This is something that occurred to me last night after I posted, the people in question in the article probably thought it didn't matter if the one person who could fix a problem wasn't available because the default state in our culture seems to be that nothing that bad can go wrong and if it does it will turn out alright in the end. The people of age to be running shit at the moment barely remember the second world war, few have known true hardship, all their experiences add up to tell them that long term most things turn out ok. This does not mean this will continue to be the case.
Just to shoot my mouth off, if we contrast with Japan who only just got out of a recession a bit over a decade ago over there people know you have to take care of stuff or it goes to shit.

What good ol days exactly? Before we had electricity? The internet? Motor cars?

Re-read his post, I don't think Judy is saying we should go back to the good old days, in fact the point I got was that general nostalgia is a symptom of this shared illusion that everything is getting worse when in fact things are about as good as they've ever been if not better.

[wombat]

Doc, you remind me of another thing about Japan  - I used to have a Japanese roommate just my age, and it was clear that World War II loomed much larger in her mind than it did it mine. She often explained things about Japanese culture or cuisine with reference to the deprivation of the war that her parents had told her about.

Of course, she could have just had very talkative parents or a special interest in history - I can't speak for her whole generation. But if that memory is more alive there, I think it makes sense that people wouldn't always assume that everything always would be OK without much effort. Which I think is a good description of America now. We think we'll always be Number One, you know? It just goes without saying so we don't have to work at it.

[pmcd9]

I used to have a Japanese roommate just my age, and it was clear that World War II loomed much larger in her mind than it did it mine.

That could be because Japan suffered much greater hardship during and after the war.  Our suffering as a nation basically ended suddenly in 1945 on VJ and VE day.  Japan not only suffered greater during the war their suffering went on for years afterwards.  They had to live down defeat, American occupation, a long reconstruction phase.  The war didn't end for them really until into the 50's.  And of course two of their cities were completely annihilated and that shit will forever be etched into their psyche.

[Doc]

Yeah I wasn't going to bring the war (invoking hiroshima in an argument kind of seems like invoking jesus or hitler; you can use it to prove just about anything) but you have to figure it has a big effect on their cultural psyche, the very real knowledge that the worst thing you can imagine can happen has to have an influence.

[wombat]

Paul makes a good point about the war not being over in Japan till the 50s, one that could only be made by someone who paid more attention in history class than I did.

I think we need more puppies now.

[Arachno-capitalist]

This is ACAP reminding you to spay or neuter your pets.